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Grey Affair View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 5:54pm
I'm just wondering if there has been a problem with this site over the past week or so. I am registered there but received an error message when I attempted to log in to ask a question on the forum. I subsequently tried re-registering but haven't heard back from the administrators. When I tried contacting a board administrator, a message appeared saying the board administrator contact page has been disabled.

Some time back, using their website, I had written Shamus Award's damline on my spreadsheets as 16. However, a week ago, I noticed that he was appearing as damline 2 & today he is showing as damline 8.

From memory, their database used to stop at Stripling's Dam. Clicking on her information icon, the first line reads "Foundation Mare Family 16". I believe someone has recently added a further generation claiming she was by Mixbury Galloway x Mulso Turk Mare. At the time, they had this going back to damline 2, but today it is showing as tracing back to Bustler mare, foundation of damline 8.

Looking at some others from damline 16 (e.g. Nature Strip, Reliable Man, Zabeel, Hallowed Crown, etc.), they are shown as damline 16 back to Miss Agnes but her dam Agnes is shown as damline 8 and this continues further back. N.B. Miss Agnes is not in Shamus Award's damline.

So I am wondering if there is a reason for this damline to be changed or is there a problem with the website?
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After 22 hours, it appears that opinion is equally divided on this issue.

1. Has recent research discovered that damline 16 does eventually join up with damline 2?

2. Or has some mischievous person incorrectly changed the breeding of Stripling's dam? Dunno what the story is with Miss Agnes (16a) & Agnes (8)! I remember many years ago, someone ran amok on an online Canadian Standardbred database changing heaps of pedigrees including Bret Hanover who was shown as by Donald Duck out of Minnie Mouse.
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SHAMUS AWARD (AUS)Bay colt 2010 
Snitzel
Bay 2002		Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996		Danehill
Bay 1986		Danzig
Bay 1977		Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom		1961
1968		2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981		His Majesty
Spring Adieu		1968
1974		4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992		Canny Lad
Brown 1987		Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass		1970
1975		7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983		Nijinsky
Show Lady		1967
1976		8-f
8-f
Snippets' Lass
Bay 1993		Snippets
Bay 1984		Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970		Silly Season
Great Occasion		1962
1965		1-g
7-f
Easy Date
Bay 1977		Grand Chaudiere
Scampering		1968
1970		19-b
20-a
Snow Finch
Bay 1984		Storm Bird
Bay 1978		Northern Dancer
South Ocean		1961
1967		2-d
4-j
A Realgirl
Bay 1976		In Reality
Secret Verdict		1964
1966		21-a
2-c
Sunset Express
Brown 1999		Success Express
Bay 1985		Hold Your Peace
Bay 1969		Speak John
Bay 1958		Prince John
Nuit de Folies		1953
1947		14-f
1-l
Blue Moon
Bay 1948		Eight Thirty
Blue Grail		1936
1943		11-g
12-b
Au Printemps
Bay 1979		Dancing Champ
Bay 1972		Nijinsky
Mrs Peterkin		1967
1965		8-f
4-r
Lorgnette
Chestnut 1964		High Hat
Mlle Lorette		1957
1950		2-o
17-b
Finito Fling
Chestnut 1992		Luskin Star
Chestnut 1974		Kaoru Star
Chestnut 1965		Star Kingdom
Kaoru		1946
1955		1-g
31>
Promising
Chestnut 1968		Idomeneo
Modern Touch		1960
1963		2-i
2-e
From the Wood
Chestnut 1985		Tap on Wood
Chestnut 1976		Sallust
Cat o' Mountaine		1969
1967		2-o
14-f
Aligote
Brown 1980		Nebbiolo
Alexandra		1974
1969		19-c
16>
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x Nijinsky5f x 5m
reductio ad absurdum
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Studbook has him as 16 though that been proven to be incorrect before. 
reductio ad absurdum
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Surely it's Family 16.  Where's Byron Rogers when you really need him?
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Tesio Power goes back to Moll-In-The-Wood 1810, stops there but still down as 16, fwiw.
Byron would be one of the 1st to know of a change so maybe a PM or add to one of his threads Confused
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I found this on bloodlines.net under the family 8:

"Genetic Genealogy
 
The mtDNA haplotype (L3a1b) typical of family 8 is also typical of family 16.  Both families have roots in the Hutton stud, raising the possibility of, but not conclusively proving, a common 17th century dam."
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Thanks kavg. That might have something to do with the change of damline number on their database.
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Originally posted by Grey Affair Grey Affair wrote:

I'm just wondering if there has been a problem with this site over the past week or so. I am registered there but received an error message when I attempted to log in to ask a question on the forum. I subsequently tried re-registering but haven't heard back from the administrators. When I tried contacting a board administrator, a message appeared saying the board administrator contact page has been disabled.

Some time back, using their website, I had written Shamus Award's damline on my spreadsheets as 16. However, a week ago, I noticed that he was appearing as damline 2 & today he is showing as damline 8.

From memory, their database used to stop at Stripling's Dam. Clicking on her information icon, the first line reads "Foundation Mare Family 16". I believe someone has recently added a further generation claiming she was by Mixbury Galloway x Mulso Turk Mare. At the time, they had this going back to damline 2, but today it is showing as tracing back to Bustler mare, foundation of damline 8.

Looking at some others from damline 16 (e.g. Nature Strip, Reliable Man, Zabeel, Hallowed Crown, etc.), they are shown as damline 16 back to Miss Agnes but her dam Agnes is shown as damline 8 and this continues further back. N.B. Miss Agnes is not in Shamus Award's damline.

So I am wondering if there is a reason for this damline to be changed or is there a problem with the website?




The latest on this saga:- Someone has added a pedigree for the Bustler mare showing her as Bustler x Barb mare (who is from family 2 & traces back to Burton Barb mare).

The information section on Bustler mare says -

"The GSB does not record the pedigree of this mare, traditionally foundation mare of Family 8. However, Cuthbert Routh in his stud book (1716-1752) states that his horse, [Routh's] Surley (1720), was purchased from Mr. Hutton in April of 1725, at that time recording the colt's pedigree: "gott by [Hutton's] Surley, which Horse was gott by his Gray Barb, his dam by ye Royall Colt, her dam by Byrley Turk, her dam by Bustler, her dam by a Barb, and her dam by Bay Dodsworth.

This extends the pedigree of this Bustler Mare back two further generations, the known Foundation Mare of Family 8 therefore being a mare by Bay Dodsworth (probably the same horse as Dodsworth)

This Bustler Mare is therefore 3rd dam of [Hutton's] Surley, the pedigree for which horse is incorrect in the GSB. [Hutton's] Surley, and probably his sister Bowes, belong to Family 8, not Family 2.

mtDNA analysis has shown Family 8 shares the same maternal line as Families 2, 7, 16, 17 and 22, proving they all descend from a common mare which predates the historical record."

Are these changes to the pedigree likely to be accepted elsewhere?
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Until the stud books change it hard to say.  
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The following, given the entire article, doesn't quite appear to be supported by actual evidence and its precise source.  Unless I've missed something which is entirely possible.

"mtDNA analysis has shown Family 8 shares the same maternal line as Families 2, 7, 16, 17 and 22, proving they all descend from a common mare which predates the historical record."
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Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Surely it's Family 16.  Where's Byron Rogers when you really need him?

Apologies. I was in England. 

I dont know what is going on with PQ. There seems to be a lot of changes to female lines going on that dont see to make sense, at least from an historical perspective.

Most of the 16 family is the same L haplogroup, specifically the L3a1b haplotype, indicating that the foundation mare of the 16 family is correct by stud book records. There is an issue with the 16-c branch (MRCA MINT AGNES...family of Denise's Joy) as there is an error between those two mares so that branch is actually the I haplogroup and should not be part of the #16 family.

The other error in that family is that out of Furze Chat (1862). Its a somewhat obscure branch of the 16 family but its riddle with errors. Its not the L haplogroup as expected, but parts of it are the I haplogroup and some is the N haplogroup indicating multiple mare/foal swaps. 

The #8 family is also the same L3a1b haplotype, indicating that the 8 and 16 families share a pre-stud book common mare. It might be a long bow to draw to put the two families together unless there was compelling historical evidence. The L3a1b haplotype is also found in the 1-u, 6, parts of the 20, 52 and the British #3 family in addition to 8 and 16 so they all descend from a common mare that pre-dates stud book records.
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Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

The following, given the entire article, doesn't quite appear to be supported by actual evidence and its precise source.  Unless I've missed something which is entirely possible.

"mtDNA analysis has shown Family 8 shares the same maternal line as Families 2, 7, 16, 17 and 22, proving they all descend from a common mare which predates the historical record."



This is actually incorrect.

Family 2 is the same haplogroup as 8 in haplogroup L, but they are different haplotypes with 2 being L4 and 8 being L3a1b. It does mean that 10,000 + years ago they all went to the same mare (that was the L haplogroup founder), but its incorrect to say L4 and L3a1b are the same. Family 7 (L3a1a) is closer to family 8 (L3a1b) but you are talking about 2 different mares a few thousand years ago that founded different branches of the L3. Family 17 is mostly L1 not L3a1b and has one branch (17-b) that is L3a1a (so same as family 7) so its not that closely related to 8 while 22 is also L3a1a so it is the same as 7 and 17-b, but not family 8.
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glad your doing the stud brogers my mind would be totally bemused just keeping up with it.  I'll stick to finding brothers and sisters to cross to within families the stud book recognises.
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I was recently alerted to changes with the damline of Siyouni (2007 Pivotal x Sichilla).

A few years ago, Pedigree Query were showing his damline as 12b. The Australian Stud Book & Arion Pedigrees still show this as his damline. This line went back to Maid Of The Oaks (USA) (1801 by Spread Eagle x Annette, by Shark) & then a few generations earlier to True Whig mare (USA) 1779 by Fitzhughs True Whig x Jack Of Diamonds mare c1760 by Jack of Diamonds x Diana (GB) c1854 by Cullen Arabian x Grisewoods Lady Thigh, by Crofts Partner & further on to Montagu Mare (GB) as the foundation mare.

====

Then, a while back Siyouni's damline was changed to 2a. Pedigree Query showed True Whig mare (USA) 1779 by Fitzhughs True Whig x Jack Of Diamonds mare 1765 by Jack of Diamonds x Monkey mare (USA) c1755, by Monkey.

A note on PQ attached to Jack Of Diamonds mare c1760 says 
"Traditionally this mare, through which much of Family 12-b descends later in the lineage via Lady Grey and Maid of the Oaks, has been attributed as a daughter of Diana (by the Cullen Arabian), but mtDNA has shown that the Jack of Diamonds mare is not a daughter of Diana, and additionally Lady Grey and Maid of the Oaks have different DNA types so Lady Grey and Maid of the Oaks must descend from two separate Jack of Diamond mares

This Jack of Diamonds mare is ancestress of Lady Grey

For research see:- https://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family12b.htm https://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family12bJoD1.htm https://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family12bJoD2.htm"

====

However, recently, Siyouni's damline has been changed again, this time to A15. Monkey mare (USA) c1755, by Monkey x Miss Bell (GB) 1750 by Bolton Starling.

The notes on Miss Bell (GB) say
"Foundation Mare American Family A15

Imported to Virginia in 1753 by Colonel John Hunter, Elizabeth City Co, Virginia, and later sent to North Carolina. A certificate given by Herbert Haynes of Northampton Co, North Carolina, stated that the 3rd dam of his mare Nancy Bell, was the "imported mare Miss Bell, foaled in 1750, got by Starling and imported by Col. Hunter into Hampton VA, in 1753 or 1754."

Miss Bell May trace back to Davill's Woodcock Mare, Foundation Mare of British Family 19, but this is unproven"

Despite appearing unsure in the above comment PQ have Miss Bell's dam as Cade mare (GB) 1747, by Cade x Sister to Thunderbolt (GB) c1727 by Woods Counsellor x Snake mare (GB) c1715 by Snake x Luggs mare (GB) c1708, by Luggs x Davills Old Woodcock mare (GB), the foundation mare of the 19 damline.

Has mtDNA been able to show if members of 19 & A15 are from the same damline?
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The information about Miss Bell must have been on Pedigree Query for a few years because I notice on my spreadsheets that Himyar (USA) 1875 by Alarm x Hira was shown with A15 as a branch of 19.
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Nuisance tho' it is, at least important sources are updating as the scientific discoveries come to light. Many thanks GA, I'll attend to the TP database right now Thumbs Up
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