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VERRY ELLEEGANT

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djebel View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Apr 2022 at 3:46pm
ETA: Informative posts moved from Queen Elizabeth where they'll be lost & are largely irrelevant there.

We will never know if she never goes. 

Whilst she is over there she can get up the duff to Frankel. 


Edited by Gay3 - 12 Apr 2022 at 3:41pm
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2022 at 4:14pm
That match is far too inbred.  Pierro for me fwiw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2022 at 5:39pm
Nothing wrong with sending her to So You Think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2022 at 5:56pm
Agree Furious.

About 1/3rd of his experience wind problems, another 1/3 are ratbags, but an amazing 1/3rd are proven superior gallopers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2022 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Nothing wrong with sending her to So You Think.

I agree and this should of happened a few years ago. Hopefully this does take place at some stage soon. The two best middle distance horses in Australian racing of the past 25 years (with one of them winning 5 G1s in the Northern hemisphere)....to give them the opportunity to have good offspring would be good 
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2022 at 4:53am
The two best middle distance horses in Australian racing of the past 25 years

Winx says hi, I think Northerly might be at the door as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2022 at 7:38am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Nothing wrong with sending her to So You Think.

The problem I see with both So You Think and Pierro, and this is said with all due respect to both stallions, is that they may be too stout for her.  Zed is certainly throwing significant stamina.  Finding a happy medium, to not wind up with the stamina of a sprinter and the speed of a stayer, is the trick.  

If she goes to Europe, I quite like Lope de Vega for her.  Although his best wins were at 8-10 f, his best racehorses range from pure sprinters (out of sprinting mares) to quality mile to 1800 m horses.  He has Vega Magic from a granddaughter of Danewin (out Cotehele House).  Interestingly, Gytrash's 2nd dam Wheatland Lady is a full sister to VE's broodmare sire Danroad's dam.  Santa Ana Lane, Gytrash, Vega One, Endless Drama, and Archedemus all have lines to Sir Ivor.  No Danehill, no Danzig for that matter, and no Sadlers Wells.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2022 at 1:59pm
I wonder what stallion out there would keep her angular structure going.  Pretty sure I am Invincible will round everything up.  So You Think is a pretty stallion also so really don't know if Winx would throw a foal like herself or like those two sires!  On paper both work but I've found paper doesn't always throw what you want.  So many different genes to spoil the mix.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2022 at 3:44pm
sorry gay

No drama, I should've started it last night when suggestions began Big smile


Edited by Gay3 - 12 Apr 2022 at 3:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2022 at 5:33pm

OK here is what a pedigree of So You Think over VE would look like.  Now why could it work.  First VE is inbred to a very good mare Cotehele House and her dam is Eight Carat a great mare.  This is the sort of pedigree which can produce a good mare.

Second So You Think has a great affinity with Zabeel a son of Sir Tristram.  Zabeel is the sire of Zed sire of VE.  Quite possibly it is the Nureyev crossing to Sadler's Wells 2nd dam and his 1/2 sister Special  (also already in VE)

Now So you Think seems to have a liking for the line of the 5h family also.

While down the bottom of VE is Imposing a son of Todman who has cropped up in alot of good stakes pedigrees both staying and sprinting.

It might turn out too stout but So You Thinks female line is also responsible for at least three 2yo G1 winners of recent years and earlier you find ones like John's Hope.  Speed is there and I was so unhappy when they didn't try She Will Reign out over a trip.  Catchy and Lyre also were kept mostly to sprints.  So as you can see.  Speed can come from this line also.  Pity they don't type the speedy ones over the Oaks and Derby trips.  They could be astounded how far speed can take you.

Unnamed  
So You Think (NZ)
Bay 2006
High Chaparral
Bay 1999
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Kasora
Brown 1993
Darshaan
Brown 1981
Shirley Heights
Delsy
1975
1972
1-l
13-c
Kozana
Brown 1982
Kris
Koblenza
1976
1966
2-o
1-n
Triassic
Bay 1990
Tights
Bay 1981
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Flaming Page
1961
1959
2-d
8-f
Dancealot
Bay 1971
Round Table
Music Please
1954
1963
2-f
16-g
Astral Row
Brown 1979
Long Row
Brown 1970
Linacre
Front Row
1960
1965
15-a
42>
Pak Bun Bay
Bay 1970
Matinee Idol
Philipolo
1956
1960
13-e
13-a
Verry Elleegant (NZ)
Brown 2015
Zed
Bay 2002
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Lady Giselle
Bay 1982
Nureyev
Valderna
1977
1972
5-h
16-c
Emerald Dream
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Theme Song
Bay 1987
Sackford
Cotehele House
1980
1980
20>
9-c
Opulence
Brown 2005
Danroad
Bay 1999
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Strawberry Girl
Bay 1993
Strawberry Road
Pay the Piper
1979
1977
18>
4-m
Mulan Magic
Bay 1999
King's Theatre
Bay 1991
Sadler's Wells
Regal Beauty
1981
1981
5-h
9-b
Chalet Girl
Chestnut 1985
Imposing
Cotehele House
1975
1980
1-c
9-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m,5m x Sadler's Wells3m x 5m Danehillx 4f,4m 
  Cotehele Housex 5f,5f
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2022 at 5:37pm
Absolutely top, well expressed post Furious Thumbs Up, even if I'm not quite sure.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2022 at 7:22pm
On top of those already mentioned, I also like Toronado & Deep Field Tongue & with a bit of luck, djebel or furious could add their respective test matings Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2022 at 6:51am
I'm working and then got a funeral this morning Gay I'll look later for you.
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Unnamed  
Deep Field (AUS)
Bay 2010
Northern Meteor
Bay 2005
Encosta de Lago
Bay 1993
Fairy King
Bay 1982
Northern Dancer
Fairy Bridge
1961
1975
2-d
5-h
Shoal Creek
Chestnut 1988
Star Way
Rolls
1977
1984
6-e
4-g
Explosive
Bay 1990
Fappiano
Bay 1977
Mr Prospector
Killaloe
1970
1970
13-c
16-a
Scuff
Chestnut 1979
Forli
Moccasin
1963
1963
3-b
5-h
Listen Here
Chestnut 2004
Elusive Quality
Bay 1993
Gone West
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Secrettame
1970
1978
13-c
2-f
Touch of Greatness
Bay 1986
Hero's Honor
Ivory Wand
1980
1973
1-s
13-c
Announce
Bay 1994
Military Plume
Bay 1983
Sir Tristram
Ultraviolet
1971
1972
6-e
10-d
Theme Song
Bay 1987
Sackford
Cotehele House
1980
1980
20>
9-c
Verry Elleegant (NZ)
Brown 2015
Zed
Bay 2002
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Lady Giselle
Bay 1982
Nureyev
Valderna
1977
1972
5-h
16-c
Emerald Dream
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Theme Song
Bay 1987
Sackford
Cotehele House
1980
1980
20>
9-c
Opulence
Brown 2005
Danroad
Bay 1999
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Strawberry Girl
Bay 1993
Strawberry Road
Pay the Piper
1979
1977
18>
4-m
Mulan Magic
Bay 1999
King's Theatre
Bay 1991
Sadler's Wells
Regal Beauty
1981
1981
5-h
9-b
Chalet Girl
Chestnut 1985
Imposing
Cotehele House
1975
1980
1-c
9-c
 Ancestor duplications:Mr Prospector5m,5m x Sir Tristram5m x 4m Theme Song4f x 4f 
  Cotehele House5f x 5f,5f Danehillx 4f,4m

Unnamed  
Toronado (IRE)
Bay 2010
High Chaparral
Bay 1999
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Kasora
Brown 1993
Darshaan
Brown 1981
Shirley Heights
Delsy
1975
1972
1-l
13-c
Kozana
Brown 1982
Kris
Koblenza
1976
1966
2-o
1-n
Wana Doo
Bay 2000
Grand Slam
Bay or brown 1995
Gone West
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Secrettame
1970
1978
13-c
2-f
Bright Candles
Chestnut 1987
El Gran Senor
Christmas Bonus
1981
1978
8-f
9-c
Wedding Gift
Bay or brown 1993
Always Fair
Bay 1985
Danzig
Carduel
1977
1978
7-a
19-b
Such Style
Bay 1977
Sassafras
Regal Lady
1967
1970
8-c
1-d
Verry Elleegant (NZ)
Brown 2015
Zed
Bay 2002
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Lady Giselle
Bay 1982
Nureyev
Valderna
1977
1972
5-h
16-c
Emerald Dream
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Theme Song
Bay 1987
Sackford
Cotehele House
1980
1980
20>
9-c
Opulence
Brown 2005
Danroad
Bay 1999
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Strawberry Girl
Bay 1993
Strawberry Road
Pay the Piper
1979
1977
18>
4-m
Mulan Magic
Bay 1999
King's Theatre
Bay 1991
Sadler's Wells
Regal Beauty
1981
1981
5-h
9-b
Chalet Girl
Chestnut 1985
Imposing
Cotehele House
1975
1980
1-c
9-c
 Ancestor duplications:Sadler's Wells3m x 5m Danzig5m x 5m,5m Danehillx 4f,4m 
  Cotehele Housex 5f,5f       
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reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2022 at 2:03pm
Not as high profile as So You THink but this one also interests me for VE.  The Lady Giselle double to the Cotehele House double.  Similar to the Lady Giselle/Klairessa cross in Mystic Journey.
Unnamed  
Hallowed Crown (AUS)
Bay 2011
Street Sense
Bay or brown 2004
Street Cry
Bay or brown 1998
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Coup de Folie
1970
1982
13-c
2-d
Helen Street
Bay 1982
Troy
Waterway
1976
1976
1-b
1-l
Bedazzle
Bay 1997
Dixieland Band
Bay 1980
Northern Dancer
Mississippi Mud
1961
1973
2-d
4-m
Majestic Legend
Bay 1985
His Majesty
Long Legend
1968
1978
4-d
22-b
Crowned Glory
Bay 1997
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Significant Moment
Bay 1990
Bletchingly
Brown 1970
Biscay
Coogee
1965
1959
2-o
7-a
Lady Giselle
Bay 1982
Nureyev
Valderna
1977
1972
5-h
16-c
Verry Elleegant (NZ)
Brown 2015
Zed
Bay 2002
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Lady Giselle
Bay 1982
Nureyev
Valderna
1977
1972
5-h
16-c
Emerald Dream
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Theme Song
Bay 1987
Sackford
Cotehele House
1980
1980
20>
9-c
Opulence
Brown 2005
Danroad
Bay 1999
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Strawberry Girl
Bay 1993
Strawberry Road
Pay the Piper
1979
1977
18>
4-m
Mulan Magic
Bay 1999
King's Theatre
Bay 1991
Sadler's Wells
Regal Beauty
1981
1981
5-h
9-b
Chalet Girl
Chestnut 1985
Imposing
Cotehele House
1975
1980
1-c
9-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x His Majesty5f,5f x Danehill3f x 4f,4m 
  Lady Giselle4f x 4m Cotehele Housex 5f,5f   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2022 at 6:35pm
Love this furious.

Street Cry crossed well with Zabeel as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2022 at 6:42pm
I also think Frankel would be a good match. If you have a look at the pedigree of Cracksman-an elite European you can see similarities. 

What may be even better and a lot cheaper would be a mating with Cracksman who comes from the Courtessa 9c female tail. I think he has his first NH runners this season and he hasn't travelled to SH but think the Cracksman-Verry Elleegant cross would be a great match with extra Sadlers, Danehill, Courtessa, Sir Ivor and Nureyev.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2022 at 8:03pm
Unnamed  
Cracksman (GB)
Bay 2014
Frankel
Bay 2008
Galileo
Bay 1998
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Fairy Bridge
1961
1975
2-d
5-h
Urban Sea
Chestnut 1989
Miswaki
Allegretta
1978
1978
16-g
9-h
Kind
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Rainbow Lake
Bay 1990
Rainbow Quest
Rockfest
1981
1979
14-f
1-k
Rhadegunda
Bay 2005
Pivotal
Chestnut 1993
Polar Falcon
Brown 1987
Nureyev
Marie d'Argonne
1977
1981
5-h
8-c
Fearless Revival
Chestnut 1987
Cozzene
Stufida
1980
1981
4-m
7>
St Radegund
Bay 1994
Green Desert
Bay 1983
Danzig
Foreign Courier
1977
1979
7-a
A4
On the House
Bay 1979
Be My Guest
Lora
1974
1972
8-c
9-c
Verry Elleegant (NZ)
Brown 2015
Zed
Bay 2002
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Lady Giselle
Bay 1982
Nureyev
Valderna
1977
1972
5-h
16-c
Emerald Dream
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Theme Song
Bay 1987
Sackford
Cotehele House
1980
1980
20>
9-c
Opulence
Brown 2005
Danroad
Bay 1999
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Strawberry Girl
Bay 1993
Strawberry Road
Pay the Piper
1979
1977
18>
4-m
Mulan Magic
Bay 1999
King's Theatre
Bay 1991
Sadler's Wells
Regal Beauty
1981
1981
5-h
9-b
Chalet Girl
Chestnut 1985
Imposing
Cotehele House
1975
1980
1-c
9-c
 Ancestor duplications:Sadler's Wells4m x 5m Danzig5m,5m x 5m,5m Danehill4f x 4f,4m 
  Nureyev5m x 5f Cotehele Housex 5f,5f
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2022 at 7:38am
It might prove that she's a fairly easy mare to mate to get an interesting mix of bloodlines.  Nothing wrong with any of the above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2022 at 8:49am
Relic (War Relic - Bridal Colors, by Black Toney) has been a key strain for Zabeel, with the Eight Carat family via her sire Pieces of Eight, Bletchingly in Australia, and Vice Regal in NZ.  Elsewhere, the cluster breeding pattern of close relations Black Toney, Blue Larkspur, Be Faithful (dam of Lalun), and Black Servant has been successful with Zabeel and his sons across several generations.

Relic's sire War Relic is a genetic sibling to Salaminia (Man'o'War - Alcibiades, by Supremus)...this is the tie to Sir Ivor.  Sackford, the 2nd broodmare sire of Zed, traces to the mare En Casserole who is a genetic sibling to Relic.  She is by War Relic out of a Black Toney mare. 

So, who has a lot of close relatives to Relic?

Cracksman has Relic via Caro's sire Fortino and Blue Larkspur via Prince John.  Pivotal's dam Marie D'argonne has Black Toney via his son Balladier.  Cracksman's 2nd dam is by Green Desert who brings in Sir Ivor and Be Faithful, and as KAVG mentioned, his tail-female line traces to Courtessa.   

Pinatubo, despite his blazing speed, comes from a female family that throws high-quality performers at all kinds of distances from pure sprinters to chasers.  His dam by Dalakhani (a stakes winner at 2200 m) would bring in a line to Blue Larkspur (Buckpasser) via Miswaki, and two lines to Relic via Darshaan and Caro.  His 2nd dam by a son of Sadlers Wells brings in more Be Faithful, and further back he has more Relic via Kris and more Round Table.  Shamardal's dam is a full to Street Cry, bringing in 5 crosses to Blue Larkspur, and Giant's Causeway brings in plenty more.  This is the kind of horse I would look for to speed up a very dour stayer and why I already mentioned Lope de Vega.  

In Australia, Maurice has Be Faithful and Banish fear via Carnegie and Riverman, Black Toney via Mogami's dam, Sunday Silence, and Roberto, a close relation to Relic in War Jeep, and lots of Menow via Tom Fool.  Both he and Admire Mars have Northern Taste, who I love to see no matter what. 

All that being said, I can't help but look to North America as a place to find a horse with speed and class for a mare so heavily influenced by Sir Ivor.  

Curlin -- Has Deputy Minister, Sir Ivor, and Nodouble all on his page, along with plenty of Black Toney & Blue Larkspur and a full sister to War Relic.  Danzig has been one of his most reliable crosses, along with his sire Smart Strike.  

Kitten's Joy has everything the Zabeel line can ask for...Be Faithful, Sir Ivor and Tom Fool via El Prado, Blue Larkspur via Roberto, another close relation to War Relic via Lear Fan's 2nd dam Belthazar, Buckpasser AND the Ciboulette family via L'Enjoleur, and yet more Blue Larkspur via Prince John.  The only problem with him is that he might not have the speed she would need.

Medaglia D'oro has all of the Be Faithful, Sir Ivor, and Tom Fool of El Prado, plus some other interesting lines.  Silent Screen, his 2nd dam's sire, has Blue Larkspur via Prince John and Bee Mac, and a 3/4 sister to Belthazar (above).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2022 at 10:41am
What a mine of relevant information! Love your work KM Heart
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I second that Gai. Great work KM as usual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2022 at 4:14pm
Some great suggestions thus far.

But let's maybe look outside the box for a minute, at the risk of astounding and/or confounding some, and focusing on stallions standing in Australia.

So if Pierro's arguably just a bit stout, how about Pierata, a sprinter/almost miler?  Ok three strains of Zabeel at 3x4x5 plus the likes of Sadlers to boot, but with plenty of speedier influences plus Danehill a not too close 4x4x4.

And to sink further into dead-set consternation, what about Deep Field, a true speedsterShocked?  Simply marvelous from a line breeding perspective and a match if placed with the correct trainer could arguably produce top class milers.

Over to others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2022 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Some great suggestions thus far.

But let's maybe look outside the box for a minute, at the risk of astounding and/or confounding some, and focusing on stallions standing in Australia.
Over to others.


If they physically matched up well, I'd be looking hard at Maurice.

Zabeel over Carnegie mares has a 12% Gr-1 winners to FOALS (!!!), so that's a cross worth trying.  Carnegie's dam Detroit is a half sister by Riverman -- a key strain for Zabeel -- to Zabeel's second dam Valderna.  VE's broodmare sire Danroad and Grass Wonder's dam Ameriflora share a cluster breeding pattern to Danzig over a mare whose sire carries the mare Flower Bowl (Whiskey Road and His Majesty).  Whiskey Road, by Nijinsky, ties in to the Northern Taste in Maurice's pedigree, and multiple crosses to the mare Boola Brook (2nd dam of Crafty Admiral, Danzig's broodmare sire, and of Blushing Groom's sire Red God).  I've already discussed the multiple crosses to Menow (leads to Alcibiades) and Blue Larkspur in his pedigree elsewhere.  

Maurice was a high-class miler who could stretch out to 2000 m at the highest level, and so far he's sired a Derby winner, a Kinko Sho winner (2000 m), an All Comers (JPN-2, 2200 m) winner, and several very high-quality sprinters.  

Next up would be Shamus Award.  A son of Snitzel out of a mare whose paternal half-sibling paired up with Zabeel to birth the I don't know how many times now champion New Zealand sire Savabeel.  (I don't understand why more Success Express mares weren't paired with Zabeel or his sons/grandsons.  I really don't.)  The line of Danehill is far enough back that it would be in the 5th generation of a foal, and there's plenty else to like pedigree-wise.  He's siring everything from fast sprinters to Incentivise, with no particular pattern as to what kind of mare he succeeds with other than Show a Heart, and I think that might be more related to what mares the syndicate shareholders own than anything else.  I only rate him below Maurice for having that 3rd cross to Danehill.

I would be keeping a very, very close eye on how Astern is doing.  I like how she would pair up with Medaglia D'oro (El Prado LOOOOOVES more Sir Ivor).  He has two stakes winners out of a Lonhro mares plus his female family has a stakes-placed runner by Zabeel and the very useful Mogador by Lonhro, so adding Zabeel has worked.  He didn't run past 1400 m, and his female line is sprint-ish, but Alizee ran at a mile and Medaglia D'Oro is known as a distance sire in North America so his foals might go further.  He's still young, and because she needs IMO a horse whose foals can reliably carry speed over a mile it's worth waiting and watching for now.

Finally, Admire Mars.  Street Cry is gone and most of his stallion sons in Australia/New Zealand don't strike me as quite the right fit.  Medicean, Admire Mars' broodmare sire, is by Machiavellian.  He's completely free of Danzig, which is not easy to do.   Again, I've gone into detail in his pedigree elsewhere and not just about Northern Taste...but again, he doesn't have any runners yet so it's worth waiting to see how they turn out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 4:36pm
F-I-N-A-L-L-Y Clap Clap Clap


Melbourne Cup champ Verry Elleegant retired

Verry Elleegant's extraordinary racing journey from unrideable youngster to Melbourne Cup heroine is over.

After a disappointing European campaign, the ownership group of the 2021 Cup winner and 11-time Group 1 winner has announced that Verry Elleegant has been retired.

Verry Elleegant's next chapter will be as a Mum and she will call France home and be served by a leading European stallion next year.

Part-owner Brae Sokolski told News Corp that no decision had been made on a potential mating but it was unlikely to be super sire Frankel.

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James Tzaferis takes a quick look at some of the stallions who could be in the mix to cover the 11-time Group 1 winner.

International Stallions

Frankel - It is hard to imagine connections of Verry Elleegant not giving strong consideration to a mating with the horse many believe is the best to ever grace the turf and whose record in the breeding barn is equally as impressive. From his base at Juddmonte in Newmarket, the son of the great Galileo sires G1 winners for fun, including nine individual elite-level winners in 2022. This year alone, he's sired Arc winner Alpinista, Irish Derby champ Westover, French Oaks heroine Nashwa and Royal Ascot winner Inspiral, among others. Frankel's progeny are extremely versatile - who would argue such a mating couldn't produce a Melbourne Cup winner?

Baaeed - Will connections consider a first-season sire for Verry Elleegant's maiden cover? If so, then surely they'd look no further than Baaeed, who bowed out of racing in a similar manner to the mare with an underwhelming performance on Champions Day. Like Verry Elleegant, his final racetrack appearance wasn't a true indication of his ability, which saw him win his first 10 races, including six at G1 level. Baaeed is the best-performed son of Sea The Stars, who is a champion sire in his own right. The Green Desert sireline has worked particularly well Down Under via the deeds of champion sire I Am Invincible.

Epiphaneia - Many of Australasia's best G1-winning mares of recent times have been sold to Japan to begin their breeding careers and while connections of Verry Elleegant are unlikely to sell, they could yet consider a Japanese stallion. Epiphaneia, who stands as part of a massive roster at Shadai Stallion Station, could be an option if they do. On the track, he was a star with wins in the G1 Japanese St Leger and the Japan Cup. As a stallion, he's quickly making a name for himself as one of the country's hottest young sires and can lay claim to 2021 JRS Horse of the Year Efforia and G1 winner Daring Tact.

Australasian Stallions

So You Think - Coolmore's pin-up boy seems one of the logical options if Verry Elleegant returns to Australia to be mated. Like Verry Elleegant herself, his progeny are extremely versatile and have won G1 races from 1400m to 3200m. The So You Think - Zabeel cross is a ripper too, with 22 winners and four Stakes winners from 29 runners including G1 winners Think It Over and Nimalee.

Shamus Award - Surely Rosemont Stud's Shamus Award would also be a part of the conversation if Verry Elleegant returns to Australia? The son of Snitzel has come of age with five individual G1 winners since 2019 and has proven his ability to sire classic winners and Cup winners in a similar mould to Verry Elleegant, with Duais, El Patroness and Incentivise headlining his growing CV.

Almanzor - Will connections choose to take Verry Elleegant back to New Zealand to start her career at stud? If so, Cambridge Stud's shuttler Almanzor could be the right option for her. A three-time G1 winner over middle distances as a three-year-old, he's made an impressive start to life at stud in New Zealand and sired this year's Karaka Million 2YO winner Dynastic. His oldest NZ-bred progeny have just turned three and he's free of any Danehill and Zabeel influence as well, so there's plenty of upside.

reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 10:05pm
Like all top racemares she will be bred to the most inappropriate stallion, more than likely the most expensive stallion, because "we think she deserves it".
Put the yearling in the best yearling sale, it will be the sales topper, rinse and repeat.
Am I too cynical?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 10:21pm
You are too cynical.

I just hope she does not go to cheap speed.

And she does deserve the best. Frankel, Sea The Stars, Dundeel, So You Think, The Autumn Sun, KIngman, Baaeed, Almanzor, Wootton Bassett amongst many.
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 7:32am
Not that I know anything but djebel's Australasian suggestions look spot on to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

Am I too cynical?

Maybe a little bit.  If the mare's owner(s) intends for the foals to be sold at public auction, they'll go to the flavour of the month.  If the owner(s) breed to race their own, there's usually more thought and care put into the decisions, but even then it's a roll of the dice if it will be successful.

I'm a little bit amazed that all the talk seems to be about Frankel and not Dubawi.  No Danehill, no Sadlers Wells, 50 stakes winners this year (!!!), and has a stakes winner out of the only Lonhro mare he saw and one stakes winner out of only two Octagonal mares he saw.  This year alone, he has the Platinum Jubilee winner (1200 m), Woodbine Mile winner (Canada), Dubai Turf winner (1800m), and English St. Leger/Queens Vase winner (2600m and 2800m, respectively).  That's a good sign that he can absolutely add quality speed to her pedigree without sacrificing her class. 

Frankel, for all his quality, would be three close lines to Danehill and that so far hasn't proven to work super well.  Looking over the broodmare sires of mares he's seen, he doesn't have any Gr-1 winners with additional Danehill.  Miss Fabulass was a Gr-2 winner in restricted 3yo company and a few Gr-3 winners out of Dansili mares.  Siyouni also brings in a third line to Danehill, which again, for all his quality, I'm lukewarm to that.

I've already written about Lope de Vega--he earned his place in the top echelon, also free of Danehill and Sadlers, Kendor and a full sister to Street Cry is a bonus, and he is getting quality runners at 1600 - 2200 m....enough to add speed to a horse like VE without risking getting the speed of the stayer and the stamina of a sprinter.  His best Australian-bred horses are blazing-fast sprinters because their dams were blazing-fast sprinters--when put to a longer-distance horse he got longer-distance horses.  Much like his "great-uncle" Street Cry.  On an interesting pedigree note, Gytrash's second dam Wheatland Lady is a full sister to Strawberry Girl, dam of Danroad, who is VE's broodmare sire, and Vega Magic's second dam is by Danewin, and Gr-3 winner Vegadaze is out of a Commands mare.

Finally, I'm a little lukewarm on Sea the Stars as well.  Again, for all of his quality, he is probably too stout for her.  Case in point: Private Life, Stradivarius' dam, was stakes-placed at 2000 and 2500 m.  She has a son who is stakes-placed at 2200 m, another son who won a Gr-3 in germany at 2000 m, and a daughter who was stakes-placed in a Listed race in South Africa at 1750 m.  Her half-sister Parisienne won a Listed race at 1600 m, their half-brother Pirate Bay by Hawk Wing was 3rd in a 2000 m race at Randwick, and their half-sister Place de Moscou produced a horse who ran 3rd in a 2400m race at Randwick.  Stradivarius was the 4-time winner of a Gr-1 3200 m race and 3-time winner of Gr-1 4000 m race.
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