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The Irish Derby

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    Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 1:33am

Comment ALAN SWEETMAN

Revolution needed to stop Irish Derby decline - so make it a mile and a quarter

Here's a question. What's the link between the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby, the Hyland Racecolours Toorak Handicap, the Clark Stakes Presented by Norton Healthcare and the Kikuka-Sho?

Think about it, while I quote HRI chief executive Suzanne Eade, who invoked an oft-repeated mantra when addressing a parliamentary committee last week: "Ireland is a global leader in horseracing and breeding."

In many respects, it's a justifiable boast. And timely, one might think, in the build-up to Ireland's 'premier Classic', a race with a wonderful history and a distinguished roll of honour, hosted by a splendid racecourse lately redeveloped at a cost of €81.2 million.

Many of us have known the Irish Derby as a sporting and social highlight of the Irish summer. That was then. Now, it is an increasingly inconsequential event in the hierarchy of major races.

We know that because the answer to my question is that the 2021 Irish Derby occupied joint-94th position in the 2021 Longines worldwide rankings, sharing that place with, among others, the 25th-ranked Australian race, the 18th-ranked US race, and the 11th-ranked Japanese race, that country's version of the St Leger incidentally.

Sixty years ago the first running of the 1866-inaugurated Irish Derby under the Sweeps banner steered the race out of a domestic backwater into the mainstream of international racing.

The glories of the Sweeps era are illustrated by the dual Derby exploits of Santa Claus, Nijinsky, Grundy, The Minstrel, Shirley Heights, Troy and Shergar. Perhaps the race sometimes felt like an act of coronation for an Epsom-derived heir presumptive, but it had status, distinction and prestige. The Sweeps sponsorship drew outstanding Derby winners to the Curragh, one of whom, Sir Ivor, was famously beaten by the Lester Piggott-ridden Ribero in 1968.

Gradually the excitement and glamour ebbed away, although the allure of the race remained powerful for major international owners and leading European trainers.

The advent of the Budweiser sponsorship in 1986 drew the two strands together again. Mike Roarty and his team introduced some American razzmatazz and Irish Derby day was rejuvenated.

It was an occasion for everyone. It was a seasonal highlight for regular racegoers, an abundant and thriving species at a time when the sport still enjoyed a high profile in the weekend entertainment listings. The metropolitan socialites turned out in force, well-heeled, expensively hatted. Kildare locals, proud of an event that put their county on the map, mixed with the once-a-year trippers, busloads from pubs and clubs all over Ireland, trainloads too, all cheerfully knocking back pints of the sponsor's brew.

Sometimes we moaned about the export of the big prize, by which criterion an imperious St Jovite in 1992 was the only bright spot between Law Society in 1985 and shock 1996 winner Zagreb. Yet the race grew in stature through the 1990s and there was even a heady period when it threatened to usurp the Epsom prototype, hailed by the cognoscenti as a more meaningful test of midsummer form at a fairer track.

It became a key race in assessing the relative merits of the Derby and Prix du Jockey-Club. In beating the subsequent Arc winner Suave Dancer in 1991, Generous established that tone. Two years later Commander In Chief triumphed over Hernando. In 1995 Andre Fabre's Winged Love emphatically reversed Chantilly form with Celtic Swing.

The decade ended with Chantilly winners Dream Well and Montjeu doubling up at the Curragh, while the next five years gave us five home-trained winners, including two of outstanding merit in Sinndar and Galileo.

That's the nostalgia bit. The modern-day reality is stark. In the past ten years the Irish Derby has attracted a paltry 13 overseas challengers: a dozen from Britain and one from France. Of the 13, three came for the 2018 race, another three last year.

Forgettable winners have outnumbered the memorable, with any genuine stars sent off at odds to reflect a paucity of opposition. Camelot was 1-5 in 2012, Australia 1-8 in 2014, with Harzand at least a more backable 4-6 in 2016.

By and large we can attribute the fall-off in international participation to the dominance assumed by Ballydoyle and Coolmore in the mile-and-a-half division from the late 1990s onwards, although that was not the only factor. Aidan O'Brien's seven in a row between 2006 and 2012 took place in the aftermath of a 2005 move by the French, changing the distance to the Prix du Jockey-Club in response to evolving fashions in the breeding industry.

These days, a stand-alone Irish Derby winner is an unappealing stallion prospect in commercial terms. An Irish-trained Epsom winner may not damage his reputation by taking in the race as a lap of honour but there is no longer any incentive for a British-trained winner to travel to the Curragh, while the French just stay at home.

On Saturday the Derby third takes on an Oaks winner. I've read it described as "a mouthwatering prospect". I guess it would be if you hadn't had a drink for a while.

What's the solution? In a letter to the Irish Field this year, BBA Ireland director Patrick Cooper made a radical proposal to halt the race's slide into insignificance.

Cooper suggested taking a leaf out of the French book. Reduce the distance to ten furlongs. With that single action, you tempt the Derby winner to drop in trip to enhance his appeal as a putative stallion, you encourage the various Guineas winners and other high-class milers to have a go, you offer the Classic generation an alternative to the Eclipse, and you attract the French again.

Now you have a proper midseason championship race, one you can market. Sweeps and Budweiser did it before, making the Irish Derby a genuinely significant horse race with a proper sense of occasion. It can be done. In fact, it must be done; joint-94th is not good enough for a global leader.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/members/comment/revolution-needed-to-stop-irish-derby-decline-so-make-it-a-mile-and-a-quarter/563996

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 2:17pm
Been mentioned here 25 + years ago the VRC Derby has become a bridge " too far " for our 3y/o colts and geldings , as for the VRC Oaks , such a prestigious race for our fillies , it's a killer , the spring , in all its glory should be a springboard for our 3 y/o to develope and mature , not rip the guts out of them , when most are just turning 3 , like the Labour slogan , it's time ! Wink
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Carioca,

What does it say about our trainers that both the VRC Derby and Oaks get full fields every year ?

Why are our trainers running horses in these races when they are apparently not ready for the arduous trip ?

Our whole classic series for 3yos is a mish mash of nothingness.

At least in the article above he shows the pattern of a 3yo classic series throughout a season and the argument for change.

You can see why Japanese and European middle distance horses are generally better than ours simply by looking at their pattern of races from 2yo through their 3yo season to open company.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 2:53pm
You obviously don't read my posts properly djebel , I'm all about change ! surely you can see that in what I've posted , the move of the AJC Derby to April long ago was a winner , the sleepy mob down South changed the distance in 1973 from 2400 to 2500 for their Derby and Oaks AngryAngry ( did you read that ) LOL the fact that both have full fields is as far as I can see is an owners perogative ! SFA to do with me , they can't even get public 2 y/o trials for public to see .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 3:11pm

ALL Derbies should be done and dusted well before April. The 3 year olds, at least the top class 3 year olds should be taking on their elders by March and April.

Any Derby run after April should be down graded to group 2 and 3 level.

If 3 year olds are not ready for open class competition that is fine there should be plenty of lower class races for those horses to progress though.

As for the VRC Derby and Oaks, if trainers were doing their jobs properly the races themselves would not be harmful to them. One of the best imports from the UK Hartnell ran 7 times as a juvenile including twice over 2000m. He'd also won the Queens Vase over 2 miles in JUne of his 3yo year ( the equivalent of January of our horses 3yo year, he himself was an April foal, again equivalent of a November foal down here ) It did not harm him.

Running our best horses consistently on a fortnightly basis and expecting them to back up week to week in carnival periods is what is ruining our quality horses.

No other major racing jurisdiction does this to their top class horses.

#IMNSHO




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 3:49pm
So you pick out Hartnell , well name me another one Wink as for Derby's being " done and dusted " by April or downgraded , your better posing that question to the racing bodies , not me , I'm an onlooker Smile anyhow , why didn't O'Brien have runners in his own Derby ? not good enough ? not enough money involved ? or couldn't back up after a hard run at Epsom? now, don't forget the narrative of the initial story LOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

So you pick out Hartnell , well name me another one Wink as for Derby's being " done and dusted " by April or downgraded , your better posing that question to the racing bodies , not me , I'm an onlooker Smile anyhow , why didn't O'Brien have runners in his own Derby ? not good enough ? not enough money involved ? or couldn't back up after a hard run at Epsom? now, don't forget the narrative of the initial story LOLLOLLOL
Cooper suggested taking a leaf out of the French book , taking the distance back to ten furlongs , djebel , that's the Botton line . Wink
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Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

So you pick out Hartnell , well name me another one Wink as for Derby's being " done and dusted " by April or downgraded , your better posing that question to the racing bodies , not me , I'm an onlooker Smile anyhow , why didn't O'Brien have runners in his own Derby ? not good enough ? not enough money involved ? or couldn't back up after a hard run at Epsom? now, don't forget the narrative of the initial story LOLLOLLOL



The previous two winners of the 2 mile Queen's Vase went onto win the following years Ascot Gold Cup. It did not ruin properly trained racehorses.

Mahler came out here to run 3rd after having won the Queen's Vase and 2nd in the Leger. You can put your spin on the fact he never ran again after the Cup.

Bringing O'Brien into the debate is well worth while.

I suspect as Galileo's influence drops off and as such O'brien's mortgage on his home Derby wanes more and more UK and maybe even French trainers will tackle the Irish Derby as it now stands.

I doubt the racing authorities of Ireland will rush into anything too soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Cooper suggested taking a leaf out of the French book , taking the distance back to ten furlongs , djebel , that's the Botton line . Wink



Since the French dropped their Derby to 2100m only one winner has gone on to win the Arc and that was the following seasons Arc AND he is the only French trained colt to win the Arc in the 17 runnings of Arc since the change.

It could be argued the French changing of the distance has been a complete failure.

Of the 17 previous running's of the French Derby at 2400m 5 Derby winners went on the win that seasons Arc.

That is a failure of a change in policy.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 9:37pm
 djebel , you posted the initial story , I only responded because the bottom line was the narrative of which I agreed could be the answer to their problems of poor fields , to be truthfull UK racing doesn't interest me at all , here is where I'm at Wink and here is where my interests ly , no offence to you or your outside influences .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 10:38pm
.

Edited by djebel - 30 Jun 2022 at 10:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2022 at 11:00pm
I didn't quite hear that Big smile but I get the general gist of what you meant . Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2022 at 12:00am
Hopefully nobody else read it, it was rather embarrassing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2022 at 12:04am
I wouldn't worry too much as I know the type of person you can be when someone rails up against you , I can read you like a book . Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2022 at 3:57am
WHat type of person might that be ?

I have made two arguments that prove your pigeon holing of horses is wrong.
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Comment ALAN SWEETMAN

Westover a fine winner - but Irish Derby's woes have not been magically solved

Westover will avoid the fate of those "forgettable" Irish Derby winners referenced in last week's column, in which I argued the race was in urgent need of reinvention in order to reclaim its place in the hierarchy of Europe's great races and should follow the example of the Prix du Jockey Club, which was reduced to a mile and a quarter in 2005.

Westover was an impressive winner whose evolving career may give the Classic some retrospective gloss. But let's be clear, the cracks in the edifice of the Irish Derby remain as obvious as they were a week ago. It is a race of reduced international stature and appeal, a diminished sporting and social occasion. Saturday's renewal was not a strong Group 1 and Westover's victory will not make the Irish Derby any stronger in 2023.

From the point of a spectacle, it was a pity that the Oaks winner Tuesday failed to give her true running, while two potential dark horses, Goodwood's Cocked Hat winner Lionel and Gallinule Stakes winner Hannibal Barca, endured miserable experiences.

Runner-up Piz Badile is a solid horse, but the 109 rating he brought to the race was merely the same as fellow three-year old Wexford Native, a Listed winner on the same afternoon. Piz Badile was 12th of 17 in the Derby, seven and a half lengths in front of Glory Daze (14th), who was fifth at the Curragh with six and a quarter lengths between the pair this time. Coincidence or confirmation of a moderate level of form?

Many people care about the Irish Derby. A few of them contacted me last week and not everyone agreed with me. I have no issue with that; at least we got a debate started.

As a traditionalist where many racing matters are concerned, I can empathise with those passionate about preserving the race's historic continuity, even though that case is not as clearcut as one might suspect.

When the Irish Derby was inaugurated in 1866, it was run over a mile and six furlongs, albeit a mile and a half soon became the established distance in 1872. Yet right up until 1945 the race differed fundamentally from the one we know now by operating a system of penalties and allowances. Madame Dubarry carried a featherweight of 7st 7lb to victory in 1878 whereas Orby, the first horse to complete the Epsom-Curragh double, shouldered a welter 9st 8lb in 1907.

The point is that nothing is entirely sacrosanct or immutable in these matters. Consider the opening up of the Irish St Leger to older horses in 1983. That change, which rescued a moribund event, took a much more serious liberty with the traditional definition of the Classic genre than a suggested change of distance that would simply mirror the French initiative.

Incidentally, the Irish authorities should probably have vetoed that alteration to the European Pattern. With a little more prescience they could have anticipated it would reduce the significance of the Irish Derby as a defining race, matching the star players from Epsom and Chantilly in an enthralling midsummer showdown.

"Something needs to be done, but this isn't it," sums up the reaction to last week's column.

An increase in prize-money was mooted by several who reacted. Fine, but where is the money going to come from?

In the race's present state of health I can't see a new sponsor emerging to give it a massive boost. Do we expect the taxpayer to fund it? That's hard to justify, since it would look like a subvention targeted specifically at the upper end of a market dominated by vastly wealthy international ownership entities. Do we make the owners pay more? Hardly, since the current fee structure for the race is already viewed by many owners as a notable deterrent.

Other replies outlined concerns about the implications for the European Pattern. This misses the point. Our priority should be to arrest the decline of our own premier Classic. Let's focus on that, let's be self-interested, as the French were in 2005. Yes, the British authorities will want to defend the position currently held by the Eclipse, but it's not our job to state their case.

What, then, about the need to maintain the number of opportunities for top horses at a mile and a half in the interest of the breed?

I'm not convinced. The great breeding theorist Federico Tesio brilliantly described stamina as "sustained speed". He was writing in 1946, yet his remarks remain relevant.

Take the pre-eminent Sadler's Wells, whose influence in the mile-and-a-half division has been phenomenal. He never won over the distance. His racing reputation rested on wins in the Irish 2,000 Guineas, Eclipse and Irish Champion Stakes. Look at Frankel, who never even raced at a mile and a half yet last year supplied a Derby and King George winner in Adayar and an Irish Derby and St Leger winner in Hurricane Lane. He is responsible for Westover, a prime St Leger candidate.

Westover has been handed a Racing Post Rating of 124, just 1lb behind Derby winner Desert Crown and the highest for the Curragh winner since Jack Hobbs in 2015.

That's gratifying, but a thorough review of the 2015 race is instructive. Runner-up to his stablemate Golden Horn in the Dante and at Epsom, Jack Hobbs beat the Epsom third and fourth, Storm The Stars and Giovanni Canaletto, with the Derby sixth Kilimanjaro fourth. In fifth place was the Prix du Jockey Club second Highland Reel, destined to become a poster boy for international racing. The line-up also included the Oaks winner Qualify and Radanpour, unbeaten in his three previous races.

That was a proper Irish Derby, perhaps the only one of genuine substance in a decade and a half of a once-great event living uneasily off past glories. Westover won like a good horse last Saturday. We have to be realistic though; he didn't win a great race.

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