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The Black Caviar Family

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 1:16pm
Great read again KM,

I read with great interest the mention of Kong and Torpoint.

I believe that Grey Sovereign and Hornbeam ( who hail from the female lines of Kong and Torpoint respectively)  are extremely under-rated in pedigrees. In fact I'm under the impression, opinion, illusion (take your pick) that Winx's dominance can be contributed to these two ancestors and their families.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 1:20pm
I think you have been deeper into this line than I have KM.  I also like to study back as things like you comment about Torpoint actually come up in most female lines.  You say Torpoint and Grey Sovereign as well as the female line decendant.  

If you look at Torpoints sire Trenton and Grey Sovereign's dams sire Baytown you find a link in the Australian bred filly Achray (daughter of Martini Henri).  Martini Henri was a son of Musket from Sylvia (out of Juliet).  Trenton was a son of Musket from a daughter of Goldsbrough a son of Sylvia (out of Juliet).

We can take it even further.  The Juliet line today has So You Think as a representative at stud.  The Juliet line love the 1n line of High Chaparral and when you think about it the 1p and 1n line both decend from the dam of Whalebone and Whisker.  Now Goldsbrough was inbred to Whalebone.  Trenton has Goldsbrough and further lines of Whalebone through Musket.

Just to invite more interest Trenton belongs to the same female line as Written Tycoon.  And guess who Ole Kirk is by.  They all have tied up from day one.  And it still works if you can find a good enough stallions around with the right blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 1:53pm
Forgot to add Whisker in.  A full brother to Whalebone and also in Musket. 

 I still think it was a terrible shame that Show a Heart stood in Queensland and not at one of the bigger studs.  He belongs to the same family as Musket.   The best cross to him seemed to be Nijinsky.  Nijinsky a son of Northern Dancer (inbred to Gainsborough carrying Trenton son of Musket and also with Carbine son of Musket) out of a Bull Page mare.  His sire Bull Lea was inbred to Musket through Carbine and Trenton.  While on the mare side you find Torpoint son of Trenton, Plucky Liege (Spearmint/Carbine) and Phalaris (son of Polymelus from the female line of Musket)

So here is another family going back to what has worked in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 1:54pm
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Originally posted by Kimberley Mine Kimberley Mine wrote:

I did a deep dive into Love Song's family, similar to how I did for Pierro.  There are three horses who are not super-common in pedigrees yet they occur repeatedly in her best descendants:

Conjure (m. 1895, Juggler ex Connie)
Kong (m. 1933, Baytown ex Clang)
and possibly Torpoint (m. 1900, Trenton (NZ) ex Doncaster Beauty)

The more crosses to one of these horses, the more successful (on average) the runners.

Love Song, Song of Norway's dam, traces in tail-female to Conjure via her daughter Third Trick and her daughter Pinprick (by Torpoint).  This line produced quality runners and stakes winners until the early 1960s, when production waned.  Love Song being bred in Denmark is a sign of this.  I believe that Love Song's line is the only branch of Third Trick left running on the flat -- there are some other descendants in Europe who are chasing.  Love Song is the first in her family to have a line to Kong, via Grey Sovereign.

Of Love Song's three fillies, Song of Norway got the most of the best from Vain: two crosses to Conjure via Third Trick's full sister Winkipop via Court Martial and Denis' Boy. 

Scandinavia and Bit of a Ride, both sired by Snippets, get an injection of Grey Sovereign via Grand Chaudiere and an injection of Third Trick via Lunchtime's broodmare sire Hornbeam.  Lunchtime also brings in a line to Torpoint. Both these mares produced very good horses in Magnus, Boom Time, and Arctic Flight.  I'm interpreting some of this as the tie-in to Alcibiades via Snippets and Sir Ivor, and possibly Torpoint via Chop Chop.    

Bel Esprit's female line is where things really get interesting.  Not only does he have 2 more crosses to Conjure from Vain, he has a line to Kong through Adios, a son of Silly Season (so, also more Menow/Alcibiades), via the mare Angola who is a close genetic sibling of Grey Sovereign.  Up top, he has lots of Menow and now more Torpoint via the mare Torpenhow.  This is the cross of Black Caviar and Moshe.

All Too Hard and Ole Kirk have common ancestors in Last Tycoon and Kenmare.  Kenmare brings in Kong via Grey Sovereign, Last Tycoon's sire Try My Best traces in tail-female to Torpenhow, and Written Tycoon has extra crosses to Vain and his sire Wilkes (through the awkwardly named Bogan Road).

Through the Lover's Chariot branch of the family, there's the aforementioned Magnus, and a good mare named Miss Norway.  Miss Norway is by Reward for Effort, who has both Wilkes and Grey Sovereign through Rory's Jester.

The moral to all of this, I suppose, is that if you have a Written Tycoon or Iglesia mare, or perhaps a mare with Palace Music, Magnus might be a very good choice of stallions.  And Written Tycoon might be a very good choice of stallion for Black Caviar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2020 at 1:55pm
AND
Originally posted by Kimberley Mine Kimberley Mine wrote:

Quote Love your deep dives KM. I'm fascinated by pedigrees but they're mostly way over my head (yes, intended) Appreciate your accessible posts and humour. May you have many more idle hours to enlighten us Big smile 

You're welcome.  Working from home = less time spent commuting = more time to do interesting things.

On humour and horse names: If you literally translate the name of the stallion Grand Chaudiere, bred in Canada and owned by Windfields Farm, you get "Big Teapot."  At first blush, one might wonder about his temper. One might also wonder about his overall size, given that he's by Northern Dancer and the French word for a large kettle is "Samovar."  (In the French-language translation of Disney's Beauty and the Beast, Mrs. Potts = Madame Samovar.  Now you know.  :D )  But because this horse is Canadian, his name refers to something else entirely.

During the D-Day invasions, the Canadian army regiments went ashore at Juno beach.  The locals in Normandy were thrilled and relieved to see the Germans evicted and thoroughly confused to find their rescuers speaking French with a funny accent and even more confused to find their brave regiments to be named La Regiment des Chaudieres. After both groups slowed their speech down enough to be mutually intelligible, the Quebecois explained that they are named after La Chute-des-Chaudieres, a waterfall near Quebec City.  https://www.bonjourquebec.com/en-us/listing/things-to-do/sports-and-nature/regional-parks/parc-des-chutes-de-la-chaudiere-5638549

Grand Chaudiere is named after the largest of the waterfalls at La Chute-des-Chaudieres.  Easy Date is his most consequential offspring by far. 

Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Coincidentally, Kristen Manning touched on the Silly Season aspect in a post yesterday.

An excellent 77.3% strike rate for the Magnus/Bel Esprit (both Sun Stud residents) combo - not only does this result in a cross of the legendary but one also of the somewhat undervalued Silly Season - grandsire of Magnus' dam sire Snippets and sire of Bel Esprit's second dam sire Adios


Magnus' top ten earners:

Malaguerra -- 2nd dam by Whiskey Road (Nijinsky), 3rd dam by Vain, 4th dam by Regal Light (Grey Sovereign) with a cross to the mare Black Ray (I'll get to her in a minute)
Magnifisio -- dam by a son of Success Express (Nijinsky + Tom Fool)
Great Shot -- broodmare sire has Sir Ivor + Hornbeam
Streets of Avalon -- Nijinsky via Black Minnaloushe, Wilkes + GS via Rory's Jester, 4th dam by Sovereign Path
Malibu Style -- Nijinsky + Black Ray via Western Symphony, GS via Beau Sovereign
Mahamedeis -- Sir Ivor via Elusive Quality
Miss Promiscuity -- Nijinsky and Lyphard (Court Martial) via Distant Music, 3rd dam by GS-line horse
Kemalpasa -- only Black Ray via Bianconi (Khaled)
Halvorsen -- dam by Not a Single Doubt (Rory's Jester, Grand Chaudiere, Hornbeam, Nijinsky), 2nd dam by Noalcoholic (Buchan, Court Martial)
Magnapal --  Sir Ivor via Sir T in 1st dam

All four of his Gr-1 winners have multiple crosses to at least one of the top linebreeding nicks for Song of Norway.

About the mare Black Ray (m. 1919, Black Jester - Lady Brilliant, by Sunbridge): she is a genetic sibling to Vibration (m. 1918, Black Jester - Radiancy, by Sunbridge) and when she appears in a pedigree, particularly with Nasrullah, she "substitues" quite well for Kong.  Her best-known modern descendants are Blushing Groom and Mill Reef, tracing to the full sisters Emali and Infra Red.   She is also present in Last Tycoon (and therefore Written Tycoon and Casino Prince) via Mill Reef.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 7:27am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

I think you have been deeper into this line than I have KM.  I also like to study back as things like you comment about Torpoint actually come up in most female lines.  You say Torpoint and Grey Sovereign as well as the female line decendant.  

If you look at Torpoints sire Trenton and Grey Sovereign's dams sire Baytown you find a link in the Australian bred filly Achray (daughter of Martini Henri).  Martini Henri was a son of Musket from Sylvia (out of Juliet).  Trenton was a son of Musket from a daughter of Goldsbrough a son of Sylvia (out of Juliet).

We can take it even further.  The Juliet line today has So You Think as a representative at stud.  The Juliet line love the 1n line of High Chaparral and when you think about it the 1p and 1n line both decend from the dam of Whalebone and Whisker.  Now Goldsbrough was inbred to Whalebone.  Trenton has Goldsbrough and further lines of Whalebone through Musket.

Just to invite more interest Trenton belongs to the same female line as Written Tycoon.  And guess who Ole Kirk is by.  They all have tied up from day one.  And it still works if you can find a good enough stallions around with the right blood.

Something I noticed, and you've rightly pointed out more than once, is how pervasive the influence of OLD colonial (USA/CAN and AUS/NZ) bloodlines are in modern thoroughbreds.

Nearco is in the pedigree of almost every thoroughbred on the planet at this point.  Although he was bred in Italy, his tail-female line is one of the oldest USA lines in the stud book, that of Maria Slamerkin (m. 1769).  That tail-female line is still extant in the USA, most notably through On The Trail, dam of Dynaformer and 4th dam of KY Derby winner Monarchos, and her daughters.  

A rather unknown horse whose influence is just about everywhere in modern US and Australian pedigrees is the US-bred mare Mannie Gray (m. 1874), who produced the legendary Domino and his full sisters Correction and Mannie Himyar.  For a stallion who died young, Domino sired two breed-shaping foals in his son Commando and daughter Pink Domino.  Commando is the first link to Australian and New Zealand breeding via his broodmare sire Darebin (h. 1878), who was imported to California in 1886.  Commando also died young, but he had more offspring than his sire, including important sons Celt, Colin, Peter Pan, and Ultimus.  Ultimus is the sire of Supremus, who is in turn the sire of Alcibiades.  Celt is the broodmare sire of Gallant Fox, sire of Flares and Omaha.  Peter Pan was an important foundation stallion in the USA.  Colin and Ultimus both served Torpenhow (by Torpoint, by Trenton), producing Herd Girl and Summit, respectively.  Summit is the ancestress of Nijinsky; Herd Girl is the ancestress of Best In Show.  These two mares have had a lasting impact on modern Australian and New Zealand breeding.  

Quite possibly the ur-example of how very old colonial lines have a deep and lasting impact on modern thoroughbreds is this mare:

https://www.pedigreequery.com/mother+goose

Chicle, her sire, is by a son of Spearmint (by Carbine) out of a mare by Hamburg, whose second dam is Mannie Gray.  Her dam, Flying Witch, is by Peter Pan, who is a son of Commando (Mannie Gray, Darebin).  Mother Goose's best daughter and best granddaughter were both sired by horses with a cross to Musket's 3/4 sibling Quiver, and that mare's best offspring all had at least two if not all three of them.  Cosmah has Spearmint and Commando.  Natalma, through Native Dancer's dam Geisha, has three crosses to Domino, a cross to Mannie Gray via Hamburg, and a cross to Darebin that is NOT through Commando (through Discovery, see here: https://www.pedigreequery.com/discovery).  Bubbling Beauty, by Hasty Road, has Discovery plus a line to Torpoint via Buchan, more Domino, and another line to Spearmint via Plucky Liege.

Which leads us to this guy:

https://www.pedigreequery.com/danehill

Duplications of some familiar names in his pedigree:

Carbine (By Musket) 13
Torpoint (By Trenton) 1
Trenton (by Musket) 6
Quiver (3/4 to Musket) 21
Darebin 14  
Mannie Gray 26

(How Mannie Gray is not a Reine-de-Course, I do not understand.)

Relic, Sir Tristram, Better Boy, and Lunchtime are introduced Mannie Gray to modern Australia/New Zealand. Semipalatinsk did so on a lesser scale. Musket/Quiver, of course, were already here.  There is another full sibling to Musket and Quiver, Mosquito, who is found through Victoria Derby winner Dreadnought.  He went to stud in NZ and is found in the pedigrees of So You Think and Gay Poss (Lonhro, Grosvenor).

Darebin's sire The Peer is a genetic sibling to West Australian, broodmare sire of Musket.  His female line tracing from Lurline (NZ) (out of Mermaid) is still extant in Australia and New Zealand.  Here is a recently-raced member of the family: https://www.bloodstock.com.au/bloodstock/broodmare/meliboea#pedigree  And another: https://catalogue.magicmillions.com.au/lot/20GPR/412 

Furious -- hat tip to you, I didn't make the connection between Kong/Grey Sovereign and the Musket/Juliet line.  Kong's sire Baytown traces to Martini Henry, a grandson of Juliet and half to Goldsborough, broodmare sire of Trenton.  Kong's dam Clang carries a double of Quiver via Hainault and John'o'Gaunt. 

And on that note, time to go convince my cat that there really really really IS food in her dish and she is not starving or neglected...  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 8:15am
Not at all related to the Black Caviar family, but highly related to how Darebin and Mannie Gray combined to be a strong influence on the modern Australian thoroughbred -- Lonhro didn't have a lot of success with his North American adventure, except for the descendants of Miss Mary Apples (who traces in tail-female to Mannie Gray) and Gronkowski (whose pedigree is saturated with Mannie Gray, Trenton, and Carbine).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 8:37am
I said elsewhere there isn't a pedigree anywhere in the world without either Carbine, Trenton or Darebin.  This corner of the world was responsible for those three.  They pretty well had it covered by the 1970's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 8:38am
The sad reality is that we didn't keep their lines going in Australia.  Relying instead on importing their blood back from overseas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 11:56am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

The sad reality is that we didn't keep their lines going in Australia.  Relying instead on importing their blood back from overseas.

Well, it's kind of hard when the best ones were exported in the first place...

Some of it, frankly, is luck.  Aurum, one of Trenton's best sons, was almost completely infertile.  Another Trenton son, Knight Errant, jumped a fence and bred a mare he wasn't supposed to.  That foal, a colt, was gelded because the owner didn't want that bloodline in his herd...and he turned into a champion handicap horse.  

Goodness only knows how many were left in the killing fields in both world wars.  When digging through historic pedigrees, it's impossible to miss how several lines just...ended during the wars, or during the Great Depression.  Others survived only because some members went to the USA/Canada or Australia/NZ during that time.  Mumtaz Mahal lived at a stud that was raided by the Germans in 1940 and every horse except her (then 20 years old and pensioned) was confiscated and sold.  Her best offspring were in the UK or North America by that point, otherwise her female line might have ended.  Prince Rose was killed during a German bombing run, and had Princequillo not been smuggled to North America and Prince Bio not removed to France, that line would have ended there too.  

In some cases, exporting a horse to a different part of the world either made or broke a family line.  Sunday Silence is probably the best example -- going to Japan made him a worldwide superstar, while there was no interest for him in North America or Europe.  Northern Dancer actually had SIX breed-shaping sire sons, not five...Nijinsky, Nureyev, Danzig, Lyphard, Storm Bird, and Northern Taste.  Because Northern Taste only stood in Japan, the influence he had on the breed worldwide is minimal (until now!), even though the influence he had in Japan is enormous.

Anyway, this has drifted a long way from the Song of Norway family.  Send Black Caviar and Oscietra to Written Tycoon, maybe consider Al Maher or Zoustar.  (Out of 2 Magnus mares Zoustar has seen, this foal is one: https://www.pedigreequery.com/mizzy3)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 12:58pm
Sunday Silence is another from the Musket family Kimberly Mine.  We did have Wallace at stud here and he was a classic sire like no other for Australia.  Yattendon,  Chester, Grand Flaneur, Robinson Crusoe, Goldbrough, Heroic, Maltster, Poseidon some of that early blood still crops up.   Amazing enough often coming from overseas.  Wallace (Carbine) was another out of a Goldsbrough mare.  He was before the sire standings but must of been very special.  Well I think that whole family (13b) is pretty special.

When you consider Nearco, Ribot, Sir Gallahad, Bull Dog, Nasrullah, Bold Ruler, Nothern Dancer, Nijinsky, Native Dancer all have the blood covered.  Grey Sovereign probably does the best with Martini Henry, Chester, Musket, Yattendon, Carbine all covered.

By the time we get to Sovereign Edition returning to Musket's playground in New Zealand Trenton and more Carbine was added in.  He must of just had a ball with all the old blood over there.

Actually if we check out each explosive stallion they usually have something which just was crying out for the blood that was thick on the ground at the present time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 10:20pm

Hello,

following text is an excerpt of an article I wrote sometime ago.
Birkhahn you will see in the ped of "Galileo" (Allegretta-Almyra by Birkhahn). Yes, i know he wasn't a great success in AUS and the "Schwarzgold Family" either.

Mill Reef“ is a good transition to the question, have been the „Schwarzgold“ strain crossed with „La Troienne“? Yes, Indeed! Both broodmares are to find in the English Derby Winner of 1985 „Slip Anchor“ (Shirley Heights – Sayonara by Birkhahn) further back in his pedigree through his sire, you will find La Troienne via „Bimelech“ (by Black Toney), her ¾ Sister „Adargatis“ (by Asterus, son of Teddy) through „Ardan“ and his damline traces back to „Schwarzgold“. Sayonara herself is inbred to „Alchimist“ 2 x 4, Asterus and Alchimist’s damline both tracing back to „Maid of Masham“. Their is another intriguing similarity in „Slip Anchors“ pedigree.

Black Ray/Black Gem FS (by Black Jester, dam Absurdity!) – Lady Brilliant (Sundridge) - Our Lassie (Ayrshire) – Yours (Melton), 4th Dam of Mill Reef

Schwarze Kutte (by Black Jester) Granddam of Schwarzgold

Birkhahn ? Peregrine (Sunstar, son of Sundridge) – Clotho (Melton) 

+Ayrshire via his Sire Alchimist.

It’s getting very complexe, but more and more intriguing! I know Mr. Porter wrote an article about Mill Reef in his book „Pattern of Greatness“, he did mention „Slip Anchor“, but he didn’t seem to spot the Helene de Troie/Schwarze Kutte similarity. As you and I know every pedigree researcher spots something different or even new in a pedigree. Maybe someone else realises another pattern!


Before I forget a members of the Schwarzgold family are now spread all over the world after their successes in England, France and the U.S. Watch Out for them!

Update:

A second strain of „Black Jester“ is hidden in Bellacose (Dashing Blade), see Hardicanute –Hard Ridden - Hard Sauce. The NZ bred Pentire is from the same damline as Hardicanute (Gull Nook)

Obviously „Black Jester“ was more of a broodmare Sire and his only son was Lapidary, sent to NZ.

 
I have realised the Mill Reef Sire Line and the "Schwarzgold Family" still have an affinity constantly producing Stakes winners in Germany/Europe
 
regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2021 at 8:44am
Hello,
I had the vague impression, the 1-p Family had a descent in Germanys. I wasn't  wrong, so the following info is of interest for you. 
 
Several years ago, a Sire named Second Set (Alzao-Merriment by Go Marching, foaled 1988) stood in Germany at the "Zoppenbroich Stud" and died Feb. 2008 (Pneumonia). He was bred in England by
J.P. and Miss M. Margan. Second Set ran in Great Britain, from 2 - 4  year old, mostly over the Mile Distance, 16 starts, 6 wins, 2 second, 2 third
 
Second Set is bred 3x4 Court Martial from Fam. 1-p and his damline traces back via the Pennycomequick (English Oaks Winner) - Winkipop branch. So he was at least 3times linebred
to this branch of Fam. 1
 
Second Set was the Sire of the Blacktype horses (Germany) Areias, Klimt, Lindholm, Bedford Set,Twin Set, Willingly.
 
Best regards from a snow covered and ice cold Germany,
Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2021 at 3:49pm
stay close to the fire Ticino and dream of spring
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2021 at 3:54pm
Heard a Sepoy horse might have recently won a Group race in Germany.  Hopefully Ticino can confirm or otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2021 at 4:31pm
well there was a G2 win in the UAE don't know about Germany.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2021 at 4:36pm
That's probably it Furious.  Maybe conceived or foaled in Germany?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2021 at 11:30pm
Hello,
the Name of the is Salute the Soldier (Sepoy-Street Fire by Street Cry), foaled 2015, 6 year old (NH)
he won at the Meydan, the Al Maktoum Challenge RD 2 (4. Race), Dirt, 1900 meter, (Gr.2), 11.02.21
 
He was bred in England, won race at Listed Level and Gr.2. According my info, his dam was unraced and had 4 other winners.
Salute the Soldier was foaled in Germany, because his das afterwards covered by "Jukebox Jury" (he stood at the Etzean Stud, but sent to another Country).
 
Sepoy shuttled to Great Britain from 2013-2017 (5 years), later he remained in AUS.
 
Out of interest I looked at his ped, interestingly he traces to "Mother Goose" (see post by Kimberly Mine), via a uncommon strain and he is bred 3x3 Danehill (3x3 Natalma)/Machiavellian (Coup de Folie
3x3 Almahmoud, inturn dam of Natalma)
 
regards, Ticino
P.S. The weather forecast announced a "warming up of the Ice Age" next week.
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