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speed reinforces stamina

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furious View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 May 2007 at 6:14am
If this seasons results have any relation to breeding at all we should all look at the 2000m and above results for the season. 
 
All the screams that two year old racing should be restricted as it somehow weakens the thoroughbred family or damages the individual also needs to be looked at.  The Golden Slipper was screamed down as a bad not a good influence as it rushes horses who aren't ready to be rushed. 
 
Isn't that up to the trainers to understand which young horses can in fact take early racing ie the Rory's Jesters.  Who would want to keep an early maturing 2YO away from the race track.  The rest may catch up with him or her when age gives them that vital maturity.  Doesn't that early maturing individual deserve the same chance to win a race for his owners.
 
Ok that is just common sense.  But how do you explain the amount of speed in our G1 race pedigrees for placegetters at 2000m to 3200m.  When you look at 1st, 2nd and 3rd in every race we find very few without a Golden Slipper, Champagne S, Blue Diamond or any 2YO stakes winning sire somewhere in the pedigree.  The Galaxy, Newmarket Hcp and major miler winning sires also come in to play with great results
 
Yes everyone is saying Lazer Sharp shouldn't stay as his sires stakes wins came over 1000m to 1350m while his pedigree includes the champion australian brothers Noholme and Todman.  But how different is he from many of the winners this season.
 
It was said Redoute's Choice (Blue Diamond) couldn't get a middle distance horse.  Then this season made a lie of that statement.  Miss Finland, Anamato and Red Lord all won or placed in different classics.  Redoute's is out of a Canny Lad (Golden Slipper) mare.  Well Canny was also in the pedigrees of He's No Pie Eater, Desert War, All Black Gold who admittedly all only went to 2000m - but still definately not 1000m metre wonders.
 
We all know Biscay one neither Golden Slipper or Blue Diamond.  His major 2yo stakes wins were over 1000m yet year in and year out he figures in the pedigrees of these middle distance stayers.  This season apart from the Redoute's Choice and Canny Lad horses he comes up in Activation, Haradasun, Spirit of Tara, Original Lovalover (WA Derby), Railings, Confectioner, Sphenophyta, El Segundo, Our Smoking Joe etc. In recent weeks in Asia the winner of the Queen Elizabeth - Royal Admiral and third in the Queen Mother Memorial - Agility.
 
The brothers Todman and Noholme both won 2YO stakes the Golden Slipper and Champagne S.  Noholme went alot further later in his career but Todman due to leg troubles only went up to 1800m.  Yet the Sydney Cup trifector or Gallic, Irazu, No Wine No Song had the two brothers figure in their pedigrees, while the WATC Derby trifector included another brother Faringdon and Todman in Guyno, Ballack and Original Lover.  Blutigeroo, Fields of Omagh, Teranabaa, Maybe Better all have Todman while Pompeii Ruler has Noholme.  The winner of the Queen mother Memorial Ever Bright has Todman while 3rd placed Agility also has Todman.  In England in recent weeks we saw Tungsten Strike with Noholme and in USA the Kentucky Derby with 3rd placed Curlin also with Noholme. 
 
While on the talk of speed to burn what about Vain, Snippets and Century.  Lets see El Segundo, Casual Pass, Cancanelle, No Wine No Song, Guyno, Ballack, Maybe Better, Fields of Omagh, All Black Gold etc have one or two of the above in their pedigrees.
 
Perfect Drop has the Golden Slipper winner Danzero while Encosta de Lago figures in Classic de Lago, Irazu, Our Smoking Joe.
 
While Rena's Lady is by Arena who proved best over a middle distance she also has the miler Blockbuster in her dams pedigree.  While Shannon figures in Just Dancing.  And when will we remember that Zabeel was a MILER.
 
So looking through we find Bletchingly, Kaoru Star, Todman, Noholme, Canny Lad, Encosta de Lago, Century, Marscay, Biscay, Vain, Blockbuster, Danzero, General Nediym. Sticks and Stones, Tierce, Gunsynd, Shannon, Zabeel, Rubiton, Snippets, Lord Ballina, Matrice, County, Marauding, Zariz, O'Reilly, Encounter, Intergaze all with in the pedigrees of these G1 performers.
 
While most of the above pedigrees have stamina influences is it infact the above speed influences which took them to the G1 level.  Likewise I like to see some stamina in the best speed pedigrees.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote InJapan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2007 at 6:50am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

But how do you explain the amount of speed in our G1 race pedigrees for placegetters at 2000m to 3200m.  When you look at 1st, 2nd and 3rd in every race we find very few without a Golden Slipper, Champagne S, Blue Diamond or any 2YO stakes winning sire somewhere in the pedigree.  The Galaxy, Newmarket Hcp and major miler winning sires also come in to play with great results
 
Interesting post furious.  My guess would - put simply - there are very few good stayers in Australia.
 
You could run the Melbourne Cup with 24 Sequalos and you would still get a winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2007 at 8:14am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

 
So looking through we find Bletchingly, Kaoru Star, Todman, Noholme, Canny Lad, Encosta de Lago, Century, Marscay, Biscay, Vain, Blockbuster, Danzero, General Nediym. Sticks and Stones, Tierce, Gunsynd, Shannon, Zabeel, Rubiton, Snippets, Lord Ballina, Matrice, County, Marauding, Zariz, O'Reilly, Encounter, Intergaze all with in the pedigrees of these G1 performers.
 
While most of the above pedigrees have stamina influences is it infact the above speed influences which took them to the G1 level.  Likewise I like to see some stamina in the best speed pedigrees.
 
 
 
If you look at all those pedigrees, you can build an arguement that they are all bred to stay a trip, every one of these horses would have stamina influences throughout their pedigrees.
 
It is my belief that every horse is bred to stay, wether or not they do is another thing altogether.
 
Who knows from where in an individual horses pedigree they get their own racing disposition, staying power maybe laying dorment for generations and then just come flooding through into this new generation.
 
 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brixton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2007 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by InJapan InJapan wrote:

Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

But how do you explain the amount of speed in our G1 race pedigrees for placegetters at 2000m to 3200m.  When you look at 1st, 2nd and 3rd in every race we find very few without a Golden Slipper, Champagne S, Blue Diamond or any 2YO stakes winning sire somewhere in the pedigree.  The Galaxy, Newmarket Hcp and major miler winning sires also come in to play with great results
 
Interesting post furious.  My guess would - put simply - there are very few good stayers in Australia.
 
You could run the Melbourne Cup with 24 Sequalos and you would still get a winner.
 
Very good point. All horses 'stay'...it's only a question of how fast they do it.
 
So when we get a winner of a staying event, it doesn't necessarily suggest they are a stayer as the staying depth in Australia is miserable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2007 at 8:28pm

Yes I agree that we are not known for our stamina in Australia.  Yet  even the Aga Khan said something like breed for speed and let the rest take care of itself.  Can't find the quote but he thought speed was essential in a pedigree.

I think we just have to realise that despite all the hue and cry 2YO racing is not as damaging to our racing as people would make out.  The days of a specialist sprinter or stayer are definately numbered.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2007 at 10:36pm
Didn't some top yank trainer say you can train a fast horse to stay but you can't train a slow horse to sprint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2007 at 7:24am
Fair comment Bradjm, the great stayers need to have a high cruising speed with a turn of pace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

Didn't some top yank trainer say you can train a fast horse to stay but you can't train a slow horse to sprint.

Tommy Smith said this.



reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:11pm
10x4184x81xHUMIDOR (NZ)G6Darren Weir158kg1.5
2x3195x111xBEST SOLUTION (IRE)H5Saeed Bin Suroor257.5kg2
341x329113xKEW GARDENS (IRE)H4Aidan O'Brien353kg2.5
45x22x0132xTORCEDOR (IRE)G7Andreas Wohler457kg2.5
5x55462x02xACE HIGHH4David Payne555kg3
678x512433xCLIFFS OF MOHER (IRE)H5Aidan O'Brien656.5kg3
72x22117xLATROBE (IRE)H4Joseph O'Brien752kg3.5
845x814533xIDAHO (IRE)H6Aidan O'Brien856kg3.5
9111x1160x9BONNEVAL (NZ)M5Murray Baker & Andrew Forsman954.5kg3.5
1057x150x11xMAGIC CIRCLE (IRE)G7Ian Williams1056kg3.5
114491x6731xWHO SHOT THEBARMAN (NZ)G10Chris Waller1155.5kg4
121x68139x4xJON SNOW (NZ)H5Murray Baker & Andrew Forsman1255.5kg4
138x72x3x56xTOSEN BASIL (JPN)H7Darren Weir1355.5kg4
141x0121x61xUNFORGOTTENM4Chris Waller1452.5kg4
151796x4341xMUNTAHAA (IRE)G6John Gosden1555.5kg4
1615x211250xCHESTNUT COAT (JPN)H5Yogelatio Yahagi1655.5kg4
17x0x92834x6AMBITIOUS (JPN)H7Anthony Freedman1755.5kg4
182144x1132xSOUND CHECK (GER)H6Michael Moroney1855.5kg4
1913x419225xROSTROPOVICH (IRE)H4Aidan O'Brien1951kg4.5
2035x463144xVIN DE DANCE (NZ)G4Murray Baker & Andrew Forsman2053.5kg4.5
211x69x2112xMARMELO (GB)H6Hughie Morrison2155kg4.5
2211x24112xCROSS COUNTER (GB)G4Charlie Appleby2251kg4.5
2325041x8x7xTHE TAJ MAHAL (IRE)H5Liam Howley2355kg4.5
24x22x132x2xWEEKENDER (GB)H5John Gosden2455kg4.5
reductio ad absurdum
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reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:14pm
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:15pm
Epsom Oaks winner - Qualify

QUALIFY (IRE)Bay filly 2012 
Fastnet Rock
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Flower Bowl
1952
1952
4-l
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Natalma
1963
1957
1-s
2-d
Piccadilly Circus
Bay 1995
Royal Academy
Bay 1987
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Flaming Page
1961
1959
2-d
8-f
Crimson Saint
Chestnut 1969
Crimson Satan
Bolero Rose
1959
1958
26>
8-c
Gatana
Bay 1989
Marauding
Bay 1984
Sir Tristram
Biscalowe
1971
1979
6-e
4-i
Twigalae
Bay 1979
Twig Moss
Hondalae
1973
1968
1-k
2-f
Perihelion
Chestnut 2005
Galileo
Bay 1998
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Urban Sea
Chestnut 1989
Miswaki
Chestnut 1978
Mr Prospector
Hopespringseternal
1970
1971
13-c
16-g
Allegretta
Chestnut 1978
Lombard
Anatevka
1967
1969
1-d
9-h
Medicosma
Chestnut 1986
The Minstrel
Chestnut 1974
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fleur
Bay 1964
Victoria Park
Flaming Page
1957
1959
10-c
8-f
Media Luna
1981
Star Appeal
Bay 1970
Appiani
Sterna
1963
1960
4-f
5-d
Sounion
Bay 1961
Vimy
Esquire Girl
1952
1952
1-u
14-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m,5m x 4m,4m Natalma5m,5f x 5m,5m Flaming Page5m x 5f
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:23pm
The grand dam of Best Solution is at stud in Australia and has a colt by Fastnet Rock on the ground. This is obviously good news.

Also in Australia is a sister 

Rosetta Stone (GB) 2004
while in Australia this horse is deemed to be born in 2003 season
 Life Number: GB26079353bay mareDate of Birth: 28/05/2004 
 Microchip Number: 985101026079353DNA Typed: Y 
 by Sadler's Wells (USA) 1981Contact: Kia Ora Stud Pty Ltd, NSW 
 from Eva Luna (USA) 1992 
 bred by Juddmonte Farms Ltd 
Named Mare Produce
SeasonDOBColourSexNameSireComment
201522/09chfillyWindermere (AUS)All Too Hard (AUS)
201429/08chgeldingMy Champion (AUS)Exceed And Excel (AUS)
201213/10bgeldingRocksetta (AUS)Fastnet Rock (AUS)
201029/09bfillyCast In Stone (AUS)Redoute's Choice (AUS)
200930/09b or brfillyRasala (AUS)Redoute's Choice (AUS)
200830/09bgeldingDanestone (AUS)Dansili (GB)




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:24pm
Capitalist is from this family. kiss sake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Capitalist is from this family. kiss sake.

sweetheart, The mare was served by Capitalist.

IDIOT.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:32pm
This filly is with Toby Edmonds.

WINDERMERE (AUS)Chestnut filly 2015 
All Too Hard
Bay 2009
Casino Prince
Bay 2003
Flying Spur
Bay 1992
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Rolls
Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector
Grand Luxe
1970
1974
13-c
4-g
Lady Capel
Brown 1993
Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983
Try My Best
Mill Princess
1975
1977
8-f
8-c
Kew Gardens
Bay 1981
Kenmare
Garden Green
1975
1964
1-m
21-a
Helsinge
Bay 2001
Desert Sun
Bay 1988
Green Desert
Bay 1983
Danzig
Foreign Courier
1977
1979
7-a
A4
Solar
Chestnut 1973
Hotfoot
L'Anguissola
1966
1967
1-w
10-b
Scandinavia
Chestnut 1994
Snippets
Bay 1984
Lunchtime
Easy Date
1970
1977
7-f
20-a
Song of Norway
Grey 1982
Vain
Love Song
1966
1976
A10
1-p
Rosetta Stone
Bay 2004
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Brown 1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935
1944
4-r
14-c
Natalma
Bay 1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950
1947
5-f
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Bay 1968
Hail to Reason
Lalun
1958
1952
4-n
19-b
Special
Bay 1969
Forli
Thong
1963
1964
3-b
5-h
Eva Luna
Bay 1992
Alleged
Bay 1974
Hoist the Flag
Bay 1968
Tom Rolfe
Wavy Navy
1962
1954
9-h
5-i
Princess Pout
Bay 1966
Prince John
Determined Lady
1953
1959
14-f
2-s
Media Luna
1981
Star Appeal
Bay 1970
Appiani
Sterna
1963
1960
4-f
5-d
Sounion
Bay 1961
Vimy
Esquire Girl
1952
1952
1-u
14-c
 Ancestor duplications:Danzig5m,5m x
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 5:32pm
Makes you wince when you see that female line (Humidor) doesn't it Djebel.  Maybe we get to see him race more.  Maybe as a colt he would'nt race.  But that is sad to see him a gelding.  The only horse to ever get even close to Winx in a Cox Plate.
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Kew Gardens (IRE) 2015
while in Australia this horse is deemed to be born in 2014 season
 bay stallionDate of Birth: 20/01/2015 
 Microchip Number: N/ADNA Typed: N 
 by Galileo (IRE) 1997 
 from Chelsea Rose (IRE) 2002 
  
Female Line
Female LineSire of Broodmare
Kew Gardens (IRE) 2015byGalileo (IRE) 1998
Chelsea Rose (IRE) 2002byDesert King (IRE) 1994
Cinnamon Rose (USA) 1994byTrempolino (USA) 1984
Sweet Simone (FR) 1977byGreen Dancer (USA) 1972
Servilia (FR) 1967byAureole (GB) 1950
Senones (FR) 1952byPrince Bio (FR) 1941
Sif (FR) 1936byRialto (FR) 1923
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 7:47pm
Hasn't changed any.  Our top performer for appearing in the Oaks or Derby winners and placegetters pedigrees last year was Redoute's Choice a champion 2yo with Canny Lad, Bletchingly and Biscay to back up that speed.  The VRC, ATC and WA Derby winners were out of Redoute's Choice mares.

Levendi and the VRC Oaks winner Pinot were by a Golden Slipper winner in Pierro.

The greatest souces of stayers include Galileo and Zabeel (a miler).  Galileo was out of a Miswaki mare and Miswaki won a G1 over 1400m and was third as a 2yo in the major Dewhurst S..

Rekindling won the Melbourne Cup and his dam was by Salse 1400m G1 and wins from 6f to 1500m.

Johannes Vermeers finished second and appart from the Miswaki in Galileo he also had Pago Pago (Golden Slipper)

Max Dynamite was third in the Cup and his sire won from 1400m to 1800m.

Who Shot Thebarman (Sydney Cup) has Carolingian (1000m to 1500m) as the sire of his dam and also Bletchingly, Biscay, Century all sprinters.

Zacada (2nd Sydney Cup) had Lord Ballina as the second dam's sire.  He won G1's at 1200m and 1350m.  And brings in Bletchingly and Biscay.

Tangled (3rd in ATC Derby and 2nd in so many G1 middle distance 3yo races last year) was by Snitzel (sprinter) and Snitzel's dam is by Snippets (wonderful 2yo sprinter)

Unforgotten (ATC Oaks) has sprinter Fastnet Rock as her sire and also Golden Slipper winner Marauding in the pedigree.

The Epsom Derby winner is by New Approach a Champion 2yo Colt in England from a mare by Cape Cross a 8f horse.  Also in the pedigree are the speedy Miswaki and Grey Sovereign 1000 to 1200m horse.

Danehill who has had every distance fall to his decendants was a G1 6f winner.

Things haven't changed since 2007.  Speed is necessary in Stayers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

Didn't some top yank trainer say you can train a fast horse to stay but you can't train a slow horse to sprint.

Tommy Smith said this.


I think it's Bull Hancock who gets the credit for this but googled hasn't helped confirmation Smile
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 9:18pm
We older people, from Victoria in particular, might well remember that our greatest steeple chasers in the 60's, 70's and early 80's were more often as not bred along sprinter/miler lines.

Which supports the above comment, whoever might have first said it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 9:28pm
I do know Tommy Smith said it, He may not have been the original. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 10:04pm
Beat Hollow 3
Carnegie 43 
Galileo - 133  18
In The Wings 1
Montjeu - 39 5 imports
Sadlers Wells - 31
Slip Anchor - 1
Teofilo 33   3
High Chaparral 78   6

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 10:36pm
Monsun 5
Tiger Hill 32  5
Nashwan 1
New Approach 41  
Linamix 6 
Peintre Celebre 42
Rainbow Quest 6
Kendor 1
Nayef 3
Dalakhani 8
Daylami 5

reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

We older people, from Victoria in particular, might well remember that our greatest steeple chasers in the 60's, 70's and early 80's were more often as not bred along sprinter/miler lines.

Which supports the above comment, whoever might have first said it.
I had a bit to do with a few jumpers, and they were always interesting, and still are.  Oddly, the nature of them seems to have changed with the reduction in the height of fences.  It was thought by many, and perhaps it was Tesio that suggested it originally, that jumps races could be considered a series of sprints, with the horse getting a bit of a let-up when they balanced up and jumped.  This is supported by the notion that a lot of speed horses excelled in this discipline.  Now days, with jumps being smaller, and lots of hurdlers pushing straight through them, it seems that these races are now more of a staying test than a jumping one, with true stayers now pretty much dominating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brudder_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2021 at 2:20am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

The brothers Todman and Noholme both won 2YO stakes the Golden Slipper and Champagne S.  Noholme went alot further later in his career 
 


Back in 2007 furious wrote about Noholme who won the 1959 WS Cox Plate and was bought by Gene Goff and another 50 odd horses and took then back to the US and started Verna Lee Farms in Arkansas.

I'm ten years late on the video but I think its interesting to note - what would of happened if Noholme was left in OZ!

http://www.clipsyndicate.com/video/play/3103553?wpid=5435
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