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speed reinforces stamina |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25066 |
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Posted: 15 May 2007 at 6:14am |
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If this seasons results have any relation to breeding at all we should all look at the 2000m and above results for the season.
All the screams that two year old racing should be restricted as it somehow weakens the thoroughbred family or damages the individual also needs to be looked at. The Golden Slipper was screamed down as a bad not a good influence as it rushes horses who aren't ready to be rushed.
Isn't that up to the trainers to understand which young horses can in fact take early racing ie the Rory's Jesters. Who would want to keep an early maturing 2YO away from the race track. The rest may catch up with him or her when age gives them that vital maturity. Doesn't that early maturing individual deserve the same chance to win a race for his owners.
Ok that is just common sense. But how do you explain the amount of speed in our G1 race pedigrees for placegetters at 2000m to 3200m. When you look at 1st, 2nd and 3rd in every race we find very few without a Golden Slipper, Champagne S, Blue Diamond or any 2YO stakes winning sire somewhere in the pedigree. The Galaxy, Newmarket Hcp and major miler winning sires also come in to play with great results
Yes everyone is saying Lazer Sharp shouldn't stay as his sires stakes wins came over 1000m to 1350m while his pedigree includes the champion australian brothers Noholme and Todman. But how different is he from many of the winners this season.
It was said Redoute's Choice (Blue Diamond) couldn't get a middle distance horse. Then this season made a lie of that statement. Miss Finland, Anamato and Red Lord all won or placed in different classics. Redoute's is out of a Canny Lad (Golden Slipper) mare. Well Canny was also in the pedigrees of He's No Pie Eater, Desert War, All Black Gold who admittedly all only went to 2000m - but still definately not 1000m metre wonders.
We all know Biscay one neither Golden Slipper or Blue Diamond. His major 2yo stakes wins were over 1000m yet year in and year out he figures in the pedigrees of these middle distance stayers. This season apart from the Redoute's Choice and Canny Lad horses he comes up in Activation, Haradasun, Spirit of Tara, Original Lovalover (WA Derby), Railings, Confectioner, Sphenophyta, El Segundo, Our Smoking Joe etc. In recent weeks in Asia the winner of the Queen Elizabeth - Royal Admiral and third in the Queen Mother Memorial - Agility.
The brothers Todman and Noholme both won 2YO stakes the Golden Slipper and Champagne S. Noholme went alot further later in his career but Todman due to leg troubles only went up to 1800m. Yet the Sydney Cup trifector or Gallic, Irazu, No Wine No Song had the two brothers figure in their pedigrees, while the WATC Derby trifector included another brother Faringdon and Todman in Guyno, Ballack and Original Lover. Blutigeroo, Fields of Omagh, Teranabaa, Maybe Better all have Todman while Pompeii Ruler has Noholme. The winner of the Queen mother Memorial Ever Bright has Todman while 3rd placed Agility also has Todman. In England in recent weeks we saw Tungsten Strike with Noholme and in USA the Kentucky Derby with 3rd placed Curlin also with Noholme.
While on the talk of speed to burn what about Vain, Snippets and Century. Lets see El Segundo, Casual Pass, Cancanelle, No Wine No Song, Guyno, Ballack, Maybe Better, Fields of Omagh, All Black Gold etc have one or two of the above in their pedigrees.
Perfect Drop has the Golden Slipper winner Danzero while Encosta de Lago figures in Classic de Lago, Irazu, Our Smoking Joe.
While Rena's Lady is by Arena who proved best over a middle distance she also has the miler Blockbuster in her dams pedigree. While Shannon figures in Just Dancing. And when will we remember that Zabeel was a MILER.
So looking through we find Bletchingly, Kaoru Star, Todman, Noholme, Canny Lad, Encosta de Lago, Century, Marscay, Biscay, Vain, Blockbuster, Danzero, General Nediym. Sticks and Stones, Tierce, Gunsynd, Shannon, Zabeel, Rubiton, Snippets, Lord Ballina, Matrice, County, Marauding, Zariz, O'Reilly, Encounter, Intergaze all with in the pedigrees of these G1 performers.
While most of the above pedigrees have stamina influences is it infact the above speed influences which took them to the G1 level. Likewise I like to see some stamina in the best speed pedigrees.
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InJapan
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Interesting post furious. My guess would - put simply - there are very few good stayers in Australia.
You could run the Melbourne Cup with 24 Sequalos and you would still get a winner.
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djebel
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If you look at all those pedigrees, you can build an arguement that they are all bred to stay a trip, every one of these horses would have stamina influences throughout their pedigrees.
It is my belief that every horse is bred to stay, wether or not they do is another thing altogether.
Who knows from where in an individual horses pedigree they get their own racing disposition, staying power maybe laying dorment for generations and then just come flooding through into this new generation.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Brixton
Yearling Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Very good point. All horses 'stay'...it's only a question of how fast they do it.
So when we get a winner of a staying event, it doesn't necessarily suggest they are a stayer as the staying depth in Australia is miserable.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25066 |
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Yes I agree that we are not known for our stamina in Australia. Yet even the Aga Khan said something like breed for speed and let the rest take care of itself. Can't find the quote but he thought speed was essential in a pedigree. I think we just have to realise that despite all the hue and cry 2YO racing is not as damaging to our racing as people would make out. The days of a specialist sprinter or stayer are definately numbered. |
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bradjm
Champion Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 6175 |
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Didn't some top yank trainer say you can train a fast horse to stay but you can't train a slow horse to sprint.
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Buck
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Fair comment Bradjm, the great stayers need to have a high cruising speed with a turn of pace.
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djebel
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Tommy Smith said this. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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Epsom Oaks winner - Qualify
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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The grand dam of Best Solution is at stud in Australia and has a colt by Fastnet Rock on the ground. This is obviously good news.
Also in Australia is a sister
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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Capitalist is from this family. kiss sake.
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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sweetheart, The mare was served by Capitalist. IDIOT. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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This filly is with Toby Edmonds.
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reductio ad absurdum
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furious
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Makes you wince when you see that female line (Humidor) doesn't it Djebel. Maybe we get to see him race more. Maybe as a colt he would'nt race. But that is sad to see him a gelding. The only horse to ever get even close to Winx in a Cox Plate.
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25066 |
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Hasn't changed any. Our top performer for appearing in the Oaks or Derby winners and placegetters pedigrees last year was Redoute's Choice a champion 2yo with Canny Lad, Bletchingly and Biscay to back up that speed. The VRC, ATC and WA Derby winners were out of Redoute's Choice mares.
Levendi and the VRC Oaks winner Pinot were by a Golden Slipper winner in Pierro. The greatest souces of stayers include Galileo and Zabeel (a miler). Galileo was out of a Miswaki mare and Miswaki won a G1 over 1400m and was third as a 2yo in the major Dewhurst S.. Rekindling won the Melbourne Cup and his dam was by Salse 1400m G1 and wins from 6f to 1500m. Johannes Vermeers finished second and appart from the Miswaki in Galileo he also had Pago Pago (Golden Slipper) Max Dynamite was third in the Cup and his sire won from 1400m to 1800m. Who Shot Thebarman (Sydney Cup) has Carolingian (1000m to 1500m) as the sire of his dam and also Bletchingly, Biscay, Century all sprinters. Zacada (2nd Sydney Cup) had Lord Ballina as the second dam's sire. He won G1's at 1200m and 1350m. And brings in Bletchingly and Biscay. Tangled (3rd in ATC Derby and 2nd in so many G1 middle distance 3yo races last year) was by Snitzel (sprinter) and Snitzel's dam is by Snippets (wonderful 2yo sprinter) Unforgotten (ATC Oaks) has sprinter Fastnet Rock as her sire and also Golden Slipper winner Marauding in the pedigree. The Epsom Derby winner is by New Approach a Champion 2yo Colt in England from a mare by Cape Cross a 8f horse. Also in the pedigree are the speedy Miswaki and Grey Sovereign 1000 to 1200m horse. Danehill who has had every distance fall to his decendants was a G1 6f winner. Things haven't changed since 2007. Speed is necessary in Stayers.
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Gay3
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I think it's Bull Hancock who gets the credit for this but googled hasn't helped confirmation
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Second Chance
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We older people, from Victoria in particular, might well remember that our greatest steeple chasers in the 60's, 70's and early 80's were more often as not bred along sprinter/miler lines.
Which supports the above comment, whoever might have first said it.
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djebel
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I do know Tommy Smith said it, He may not have been the original.
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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Beat Hollow 3 Carnegie 43 Galileo - 133 18 In The Wings 1 Montjeu - 39 5 imports Sadlers Wells - 31Slip Anchor - 1 Teofilo 33 3 High Chaparral 78 6 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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Monsun 5
Tiger Hill 32 5 Nashwan 1 New Approach 41 Linamix 6 Peintre Celebre 42 Rainbow Quest 6 Kendor 1 Nayef 3 Dalakhani 8 Daylami 5 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Progold
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I had a bit to do with a few jumpers, and they were always interesting, and still are. Oddly, the nature of them seems to have changed with the reduction in the height of fences. It was thought by many, and perhaps it was Tesio that suggested it originally, that jumps races could be considered a series of sprints, with the horse getting a bit of a let-up when they balanced up and jumped. This is supported by the notion that a lot of speed horses excelled in this discipline. Now days, with jumps being smaller, and lots of hurdlers pushing straight through them, it seems that these races are now more of a staying test than a jumping one, with true stayers now pretty much dominating.
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Brudder_A
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Back in 2007 furious wrote about Noholme who won the 1959 WS Cox Plate and was bought by Gene Goff and another 50 odd horses and took then back to the US and started Verna Lee Farms in Arkansas. I'm ten years late on the video but I think its interesting to note - what would of happened if Noholme was left in OZ! |
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