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So You Think $66,000 !!!!! |
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8680 |
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So You Think has had a good 2021 so far in terms of stakes (Group/Listed) wins:
2021 (7) 6th of February: Poland: Group 2 Autumn Stakes (1400m SWP at Caulfield, Australia) 6th of February: Peltzer: Group 3 Eskimo Prince Stakes (1200m SWP at Randwick, Australia) 27th of February: Think It Over: Group 3 Liverpool City Cup (1300m HCP at Randwick, Australia) 6th of March: So Si Bon: Listed Furphy Stakes (1400m HCP at Flemington, Australia) 8th of March: Good Idea: Group 2 Adelaide Cup (3200m HCP at Morphetville, Australia) 8th of March: Mr Marathon Man: Listed Canberra Cup (2000m HCP at Canberra, Australia) 27th of March: Think It Over: Group 1 George Ryder Stakes (1500m WFA at Rosehill, Australia) |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Unless there was a winner elsewhere on the planet this filly was So You Thinks first as a broodmare sire.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21824 |
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Nice win by that filly at Ipswich yesterday , green as grass , best work last 100 , hope they don't put blinkers on her yet.
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Vivarchi
Champion Joined: 15 Jan 2017 Status: Offline Points: 537 |
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Another typical saturday by the Saturday machine So You Think.
6 winners at Randwick, Caulfield, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Kembla and Hong Kong. Plus top 5's in in the 2 mile Sydney cup, the 2000m furlong QE, and the 1200m Arrowfield. SYT is the complete all rounder. When the gates open, you know the SYT's give you their all in any company. He is holding down 4th in the overall Sires without the aid of one of the put on fancy money races. What a year he is having.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45760 |
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Too true V. Even more so now his stock have just that little bit more age about them.
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8680 |
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That's So You Think's third 3200m stakes winner in this 2020/21 Australian season: Knight's Order - Group 2 Brisbane Cup, in June Good Idea - Group 2 Adelaide Cup, in March Carif - Listed Sandown Cup, in November
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52004 |
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Outstanding
G1 sprinter Fasika has become the second-highest lot in Inglis Digital
history, with Suman Hedge Bloodstock purchasing the daughter of So You
Think for $920,000 in the August (Late) Auction today. |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8680 |
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So You Think's Stakes (Group/Listed) Winners SW = Set Weights HCP = Handicap QLTY = Quality WFA = Weight For Age SWP = Set Weights Plus Penalties 2016 (4) 27th of February: Gold Rush: Group 2 Breeders Stakes (1200m SW at Matamata, New Zealand) 17th of September: La Diosa: Listed Canterbury Belle Stakes (1200m SW at Riccarton, New Zealand) 15th of October: La Diosia: Listed John Griggs Stakes (1400m SW at Ashburton, New Zealand) 12th of November: La Diosia: Group 1 NZ 1,000 Guineas (1600m SW at Riccarton, New Zealand) 2017 (5) 22nd of January: Northwest Passage: Listed Hobart Guineas: (2100m SW at Hobart, Australia) 3rd of February: Northwest Passage: Listed Tasmanian Darby (2200m SW at Hobart, Australia) 17th of February: Northwest Passage: Listed Torney Night Cup (2500m HCP at Mooney Valley, Australia) 25th February: La Diosa: Group 2 Surround Stakes (1400m SW at Randwick, Australia) 4th of March: Inference: Group 1 Randwick Guineas: (1600m SW at Randwick, Australia) 2018 (11) 18th of January: Care To Think: Listed Magic Millions Cup (1400m HCP at Gold Coast, Australia) 17th of February: Global Thinking: Listed Southlake Guineas (1600m SW at Invercargill, New Zealand) 23rd of March: Think Bleue: Group 3 Alexandra Stakes (1600m HCP at Moonee Valley, Australia) 24th of March: D'Argento: Group 1 Rosehill Guineas (2000m SW at Rosehill, Australia) 24th of March: The Pinnacle: Group 3 Epona Stakes (1900m HCP at Rosehill, Australia) 11th of April: Mr Marathon Man: Listed Prix Jacques Laffitte (1800m HCP at Longchamp, France) 21st of April: Higher Ground: Group 3 Frank Packer Plate (2000m SW at Randwick, Australia) 21st of April: Sopressa: Group 3 Auraria Stakes (1800m SW at Morphetville, Australia) 5th of May: Sopressa: Group 1 Australasian Oaks (2000m SW at Morphetville, Australia) 26th of May: Heavenly Thought: Group 3 Grand Prix Stakes (2200m SW at Eagle Farm, Australia) 26th December: So Si Bon: Listed Lord Stakes (1700m HCP at Caulfield, Australia) 2019 (12) 16th of February: Nakeeta Jane: Group 2 Light Fingers Stakes (1200m SW at Randwick, Australia) 2nd of March: Nakeeta Jane: Group 1 Surround Stakes (1400m SW at Randwick, Australia) 13th of April: Fasika: Listed South Pacific Classic (1400m SW at Randwick, Australia) 20th of April: Quick Thinker: Listed Champagne Stakes (1600m SW at Auckland, New Zealand) 11th of May: So We Are: Listed Adelaide Guineas (1600m SW at Morphetville, Australia) 1st of June: Coachwhip: Group 3 Arlington Matron Stakes (1800m HCP at Churchill Downs, America) 10th of August: So Si Bon: Group 3 Auries Star Handicap (1200m HCP at Flemington, Australia) 31st of August: Quick Thinker: Group 3 Ming Dynasty Quality (1400m HCP at Rosehill, Australia) 14th of September: Just Thinkin: Listed Dulcify Stakes (1500m SWP at Rosehill, Australia) 19th of October: Thought Of That: Group 3 Ladbrokes Classic (2000m SW at Caulfield, Australia) 23rd of October: Long Jack: Listed Geelong Classic (2200m SW at Geelong, Australia) 7th of December: Beautiful Mind: Listed Jungle Dawn Classic (1400m SW at Ascot, Australia) 2020 (12) 8th of February: Miss Siska: Group 3 Carlyon Cup (1600m SWP at Caulfield, Australia) 22nd of February: Miss Siska: Group 2 Peter Young Stakes (1800m WFA at Caulfield, Australia) 7th of March: Fasika: Group 3 Winona Girl Quality (1200m HCP at Randwick, Australia) 28th of March: Quick Thinker: Group 2 Tulloch Stakes (2000m SW at Rosehill, Australia) 4th of April: Quick Thinker: Group 1 ATC Derby (2400m SW at Randwick, Australia) 16th of May: Realm Of Flowers: Group 3 South Australian Fillies Classic (2500m SW at Morphetville, Australia) 21st of May: Think Of Me: Listed Prix Gold River - Fonds Europeen de l'Elevage (2800m HCP at Deauville, France) 10th of October: Peltzer: Group 2 Stan Fox Stakes (1500m SW at Randwick, Australia) 17th of October: Think It Over: Group 3 Craven Plate (2000m WFA at Randwick, Australia) 24th of October: Knight's Order: Listed Tattersalls Cup (2400m HCP at Randwick, Australia) 14th of November: Carif: Listed Sandown Cup (3200m HCP at Sandown, Australia) 14th of November: So Si Bon: Group 3 Eclipse Stakes (1800m HCP at Sandown, Australia) 2021 (20) 6th of February: Poland: Group 2 Autumn Stakes (1400m SWP at Caulfield, Australia) 6th of February: Peltzer: Group 3 Eskimo Prince Stakes (1200m SWP at Randwick, Australia) 27th of February: Think It Over: Group 3 Liverpool City Cup (1300m HCP at Randwick, Australia) 6th of March: So Si Bon: Listed Furphy Stakes (1400m HCP at Flemington, Australia) 8th of March: Good Idea: Group 2 Adelaide Cup (3200m HCP at Morphetville, Australia) 8th of March: Mr Marathon Man: Listed Canberra Cup (2000m HCP at Canberra, Australia) 27th of March: Think It Over: Group 1 George Ryder Stakes (1500m WFA at Rosehill, Australia) 3rd of April: Nimalee: Group 2 Emancipation Stakes (1500m SWP at Rosehill, Australia) 10th of April: Quick Thinker: Group 2 Chairman's Quality (2600m HCP at Randwick, Australia) 17th of April: Fasika: Group 2 Sapphire Stakes (1200m SWP at Randwick, Australia) 15th of May: Realm Of Flowers: Listed Andrew Ramsden Stakes (2800m WFA at Flemington, Australia) 5th of June: Knight's Order: Listed Winter Cup (2400m HCP at Rosehill, Australia) 12th of June: Knight's Order: Group 2 Brisbane Cup (3200m HCP at Eagle Farm, Australia) 4th of September: Think It Over: Group 2 Chelmsford Stakes (1600m WFA at Randwick, Australia) 24th of September: So You Assume: Group 2 Stocks Stakes (1600m WFA at Moonee Valley, Australia) 26th of September: Buddies: Group 3 Celebration Cup (1400m HCP at Sha Tin, Hong Kong) 2nd of October: Think It Over: Group 2 Hill Stakes (2000m WFA at Randwick, Australia) 9th of October: Dirty Thoughts: Group 3 Northwood Plume Stakes (1200m SWP at Caulfield, Australia) 16th of October: Think It Over: Group 3 Craven Plate (2000m WFA at Randwick, Australia) 13th of November: Midnight Blue: Listed Ascot Gold Cup (1800m HCP at Ascot, Australia) 2022 (1) 1st of January: Midnight Blue: Group 2 Perth Cup (2400m HCP at Ascot, Australia) Total: 37 stakes winners & 65 stakes wins. Stakes (Group/Listed) Wins - Countries Australia: 55 stakes wins New Zealand: 6 stakes wins France: 2 stakes wins USA: 1 stakes win China: 1 stakes win Stakes (Group/Listed) Wins - Classification Group 1: 7 Group 2: 16 Group 3: 19 Listed: 23 |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Sir Gov
Champion Joined: 17 May 2016 Status: Offline Points: 2278 |
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Solid stallion - not much more than that.
Punching at 5.6% SW/R & considering the quality of mares, you would have to say has underperformed. Good bread & butter stallion at Champagne & caviar price. At $77k.....goodbye breeders! Stats also weaker at 2300m+
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45760 |
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With respect, rather better than B&B one might suggest:
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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This is the type of comment that should see said person banned from all forums. #Sacrilege
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reductio ad absurdum
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Sir Gov
Champion Joined: 17 May 2016 Status: Offline Points: 2278 |
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^ Fair call - he has had a very good 12 months. Maybe his breakout year as a 15yo stallion? Will he hold that trajectory? Certainly been a big lift.
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Sir Gov
Champion Joined: 17 May 2016 Status: Offline Points: 2278 |
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Nothing is sacred these days. Not even SYTs boom.
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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I believe a owner of a mare should be paying 100 grand just to breath the same air as the great one.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
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I think I would call him steak and stout...better than bread and butter but not champagne and caviar...and it's probably better to buy a filly than breed one. If you exclude his Irish-bred crops and you exclude his current-season juveniles, you're looking at 6.2% stakes winners from southern hemisphere-bred runners. For Australian runners only, he has 484 runners for 32 stakes winners--6.6%. For all but one year, the trend has been more stakes winners than the years before (3-7-4-9-12 to end of last season, 5 so far this year). That's on par with Zoustar's Australian runners (6.4% SW/R) and not far off Lonhro's Australian runners (7.2% SW/R). Distance-wise, the majority of his runners are winning between 1200 - 1600 m. Same with stakes winners...1200 - 1600 m. There are more races and there is more aggregate prizemoney in Australia at those distances, so if a horse can win at that distance that's where they'll race (much to Djebels' annoyance), rather than wait for fewer races as 2300m +. Where he falls down hard, and this was also true of his sire, is that his fillies aren't as good as his colts. On average his colts earn more than twice of what his fillies earn, despite having statistically identical numbers of starters, winners, and stakes winners (this also says that his stakes-winning fillies are more likely to be listed class than group class). Although it's early yet, Dundeel is showing the same pattern. It tookHigh Chap 9 seasons at stud to get his first Gr-1 winning fillies -- Hiyaam in AUS and Cascapedia in SAf -- the former being out of a 3/4 sibling to Octagonal and the latter being out of a Dansili daughter from the family of Irish champion Al Bathari and multiple HK champion Military Attack. That's the quality of mare it takes to get a Gr-1 winning filly from this sireline. I do agree that $77,000 is higher than his sales currently support, which is basically true of the Coolmore roster in general minus Fastnet Rock. At a median sales price of $100K, a fee of $50k is more likely to turn a profit. Buyers have noticed this; in general, his colts are selling for more than his fillies. So, better to breed and sell a colt, better to buy a filly. |
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45760 |
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Thanks for that KM.
Like Lot 368 by Dundeel in the Classic sale so hopefully that won't bring too much for us to attempt to buy in. Despite Dundeel's inability to get top fillies so far I do note that this Lot's female family contains more than a few decent fillies and mares.
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kavg
Champion Joined: 08 Jun 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3993 |
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Interesting post KM, again (loved your Maurice contributions).
Why do you think HC, SYT and Dundeel have a bias against their fillies? Is it something within HC or is it the dams of SYT and Dundeel that are not 'elite' enough to pass it on through tail female line? Or something else? There is also the HC stallions Free Eagle, Redwood, Tivaci and Toronado who may give more statistics and maybe a key. Redwood and to a lesser extent Toronado come from better female families so it would be interesting to see whether this translates to more equality between the sexes of their progeny. |
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Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world. |
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Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
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Bizarrely...I think it's Darshaan. (Things I never thought I would write!) Sadlers Wells covered a LOT of Darshaan mares. Of his top 15 earners, 9 were colts and 6 were fillies, and of those who made more than the equivalent of 500,000 GBP, 5 were colts and two were fillies. Those two fillies are the spectacular racemare Islington and the useful Fantasia, whose ran in stakes company for 4 seasons, winning only at the Gr-3 level and being stakes placed in Gr-1 level. Fantasia has a HK Gr-3 winning son and a US-raced colt with 4th in a Gr-3, and her fillies are modest winners. Islington herself failed as a broodmare, and her daughters' best offspring are all colts. Darshaan's best son Dalakhani is continuing this pattern. Of his top ten earners in Europe or Australia, 7 are colts and 3 are fillies. All of his millionaires -- Conduit, Dalasan, and Reliable Man -- are colts. His superb daughter Moonstone has 4 stakes-winning sons of 6 to race, and one of her two daughters is a stakes winner. At stud, Reliable Man seems to be breaking that pattern.
Redwood is very much following the same pattern. Data from Arion: Sex Rnrs Wnrs Plcd Wins SW (GW) SWs(GWs) Ave Earnings NZ$ Colts 134 78 14 230 6 (4) 9 (5) 82,933 Fillies 109 60 14 146 2 (2) 2 (2) 32,828 Toronado not quite as much:
FYI, don't focus too much on the prize money, as stakes prizes for open races are greater than for that of mares races. It's the number of winners, number of wins, and number of stakes winners. It's too early to say with Tivaci and Alpine Eagle. For comparison, here's Street Boss: Sex Rnrs Wnrs Plcd Wins SW (GW) SWs(GWs) Ave Earnings US$ Colts 523 368 74 1111 30 (12) 65 (20) 81,272 Fillies 557 370 84 936 29 (9) 40 (13) 47,188 On average, his colts have more stakes wins than fillies, in part due to some high-quality geldings with very full trophy cabinets, but the number of runners, winners, placed horses, and stakes winners are statistically equal. Meanwhile, Night of Thunder is the opposite: Sex Rnrs Wnrs Plcd Wins SW (GW) SWs(GWs) Ave Earnings £ Colts 118 80 15 192 6 (4) 10 (4) 29,874 Fillies 112 75 19 171 20 (10) 32 (15) 41,975 |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25171 |
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Possibly a sex difference but So You THink's first big one was La Diosa (a filly) and each season he's had at least one or two with good form - Fasika, Nakeeta Jane, Nimalee, Realm of Flowers come to mind quickly enough. And hate to say it but his female line is one of the best for stakes winners around. And plenty of those have been female including She will Reign, Mnemosyne, Lyre etc.
While I do agree Dundeel only seems to have She's Ideel leading his female crew. So it will be interesting to see how Super Seth goes because line the female line of So You THink he comes from the female line of High Chaparral himself. Going back to the dam of Heroic. So will be interesting to see if he can also buck the trend for this line.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25171 |
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Sorry that came out very garbled. Trying to say he is also from a great female line.
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Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
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Well, this filly has a half-sister by So You Think who is stakes placed, which is a good sign. Looking at her page, I see that the mare Splat is listed there -- she's the dam of the Russian Revolution filly that we as a group looked over in the Photo Evaluations forum and universally raised our eyebrows and expressed polite skepticism. Her physical might tell more about her than the page.
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kavg
Champion Joined: 08 Jun 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3993 |
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Thanks KM,
Some nice insights there and an interesting theory re Darshaan which is probably not as bizzare as you would think.There appear to be no other stallions that like HC are Sadlers/Darshaan so it is hard to make it a rule. There is a theory that stallions can throw to their female side and maybe the reason Reliable Man is 'bucking the trend' is that his female side is by Sadler's, the opposite of HC.
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Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world. |
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Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
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Oh, absolutely. I've written on this board before that Pierro is clearly throwing to his female line. The only other stallion with Darshaan as a broodmare sire I could find is a son of Dubawi named Al Kazeem. Of his top four runners from one small crop (fertility issues), he has four stakes-winning colts including a Gr-1 winner in Germany. His best filly is listed-placed. Darshaan's half-sister Darara was an exceptional broodmare whose highest earner was Dar Re Mi. Her two other fillies won a low-level maiden and were unplaced. Of her 9 colts, 8 raced, 6 earned black type, and 4 were Gr-1 winners. So far, Dar Re Mi's fillies have topped out at Gr-2 class, and her best colt is Too Darn Hot. Here's Too Darn Hot's page...when the fillies run they RUN, but there are 17 black-type earning colts to 10 black type earning fillies going back through his 3rd dam. |
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Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
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La Diosa: from the "The" family, high class fillies for generations Fasika: Topped out at Gr-2 level, has been placed several times at Gr-1 level but can't quite get there Nimalee: Same as above, plus she's from the family of Deep Impact Realm of Flowers: so far has topped out at Gr-3 level, and she's out of a half to millionaire Redwood Miss Siska: topped out at Gr-2 level, half sister to Hay List Nakeeta Jane is the exception that proves the rule.
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Sir Gov
Champion Joined: 17 May 2016 Status: Offline Points: 2278 |
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Great posts KM
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45760 |
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And right on cue So You Win lands his first stakes success in the Listed January Cup over 2000m at Rosehill today,
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45760 |
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This filly's parade video is now on-line at Inglis Classic. And am even more keen now. Any comments welcomed: be they good, bad or indifferent. |
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Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
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Both of her hind feet are toed out in the walking video. She's a little bit long in the pasterns, which IIRC we also said about the Splat filly so that might be how this family looks. She has a nice hip, nice shoulder, nice proportions, and nice walk. I like that she picks up her feet and doesn't drag her hind toes. Her half-sister by So You Think was twice stakes-placed as a juvenile and this filly looks like she's also maturing quickly. |
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45760 |
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Thanks KM. Will have to check those hind feet.
We bred a city winner out of the female family (dam was a sister to Savana City) and she was long in the pasterns also. She died prematurely however the first of her two foals (by the short-coupled Al Maher) took after the sire and won three times at stakes level. Fwiw re heredity.
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Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
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I'm sorry to hear that, how rough to lose one young. About her hind feet, in the video she's tracking more-or-less straight in front/back from the fetlock up. She doesn't look cow-hocked (to my eye, anyway). She picks up her hind feet when she walks, too.
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