Go to Villagebet.com.au for free horse racing tips - Click here now
Forum Home Forum Home > Horse Breeding - Public Forums > Breeding Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Sadler's Wells
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Thoroughbred Village Home Page. For village news, follow @TBVillage on Twitter. For horseracing tips, follow @Villagebet on Twitter. To contact the Mayor by email: Click Here.


Sadler's Wells

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Take2 View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1871
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sadler's Wells
    Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 1:35pm
was going to post this on the galileo thread in the broodmare forum, but thought better of it after reading djebels post on sticking to the subject lol
so anyway, i think we are going to see a lot more of the sadler's wells duplications that the relative few there is at the moment, with Enable well and truly flying the flag

Enable, 3x2 Sadler's wells,
 probably all been covered before
the following from black type pedigrees.com
Black Type Pedigrees
Kamsin (GER)2005G1, GER4m x 4m
Parish Hall (IRE)2009G1, GB3m x 3m
Kitten’s Dumplings (USA)2010G1, USA3m x 3f
La Porotita (CHI)2009G1, CHI3m x 3m
Urmeneta (ARG)2012G1, ARG3m x 3m
Vagabond Shoes (IRE)2007G2, USA2m x 4m
Samuel (GB)2004G2, GB3f x 4m
Divisidero (USA)2012G2, USA3m x 4f
Vent de Force (GB)2011G2, GB3m x 3m
Dona Sarita (CHI)2009G2, PER2m x 3f
Gatewood (GB)2008G3, AUS2m x 3f
Samba Brazil (GER)2009G3, GER3m x 4m
Rehn’s Nest (IRE)2010G3, IRE3m x 3m
Skipper (VEN)2011G3, VEN3f x 3m
Opera Gal (IRE)2007L, GB2m x 3m
Shujoon (GB)2004L, FR3f x 3m
Nichols Canyon (GB)2010L, GB3m x 4m
Upstaged (AUS)2002L, AUS2m x 3f
Calling Out (FR)2011L, FR3f x 4m
Halong Bay (FR)2005L, ITY2m x 4m
Granny Mc’s Kitten (USA)2011L, USA3m x 3f
Murano (IRE)2009L, FR3f x 3m
Burberry (SAF)2005L, SAF3m x 3m
Saint Sophia (SAF)2010L, SAF3m x 3f
Momento de Alegria (BRZ)2011L, BRZ2m x 4m
Great Page (IRE)2013L, IRE3m x 3m
Nordic Flight (GER)2012L, GER3m x 4f



Edited by Gay3 - 28 Aug 2020 at 2:01pm
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodtock.com.au
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
oldflight View Drop Down
Yearling
Yearling


Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Location: NSW
Status: Offline
Points: 173
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldflight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 2:18pm
Interesting reading T2 thanks for the Post

I wonder how many mare owners in Australia with Galileo, Monjeu, Carnegie, High Chap, Scenic, In The Wings, mares among others
or mares from Sadler's Wells grand sons have been thoughtful enough to try it.
I have personally been on the end of the phone several time with nom managers and or stallion owners telling me what I need to do is;
Inject some Aussie Speed into the Mare
Those Euros are soft boned she needs some Aussie toughness
Our Horse is proven here, were we race, not in some pace set European Hack Race

Some, All or none of the above maybe true but when European Horses by Stallions we have had access to for 20 years or so and even some with Australian Pedigrees keep returning to Australia for staying events, I wonder were we as a Breeding community are really at.

Millions upon Millions tipped into click bait named races, for horses who will never see a race past a mile.
Commentators asking trainers do you think this horse will be able to STAY and get to 1400m.
Two weeks ago the three main Saturday race meetings in NSW had 32 races of which only 5 were past 1450m.
It breaks my spirit and hurts my tiny mind.
I will just try to breed a mile to 10f horse against the flow of junk information and horses retiring with a poor rated Gr3 win next to their name being the next big thing and a MUST for a small breeder like me. I say pooh to that.

Sorry for the rant it got away from me a bit

Ciao For Now Flight
Back to Top
Second Chance View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 23116
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 3:08pm
Wouldn't be going ape over the cross.  Here's part of an very recent article in TDN Europe by John Boyce:

There is strong statistical evidence to suggest that close inbreeding produces inferior racehorses. The basic figures set alarm bells ringing: there have been 2,821 Northern Hemisphere-foaled runners with close inbreeding to Sadler’s Wells and only 76 or 2.7% have become stakes winners. Horses closely inbred to Danehill, meanwhile, include 116 stakes winners from 4,711 runners–or 2.5% in Australia–and 48 stakes winners from 1,309 runners (3.7%) in the Northern Hemisphere. None of these figures are in the least bit impressive. Moreover, given there have been so many runners carrying close duplicates of both stalwarts, it’s surprising that the highest-rated horse inbred to Danehill in Australia has a Timeform rating of only 124, while the best Northern Hemisphere product is rated 118. And Enable (Timeform 134) is the only Sadler’s Wells inbred with a Timeform mark better than 123.

But the strongest evidence can be seen when we narrow it down to the progeny of individual sires. There are 22 Northern Hemisphere stallions each with at least 30 runners closely inbred to Sadler’s Wells–that is with at least one or more duplications appearing with the first three generations. Collectively these 22 sires have had 977 runners with Sadler’s Wells inbreeding. Among the group are 50 stakes winners which amounts to a strike rate of 5.1%. However, when we aggregate the remaining runners by the 22–those without a Sadler’s Wells duplication – we find 817 stakes winners from 9,899 runners or a far superior strike rate of 8.3%.

  
Back to Top
oldflight View Drop Down
Yearling
Yearling


Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Location: NSW
Status: Offline
Points: 173
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldflight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 3:28pm
I would not be entertaining one or more duplication's in the first 3 generations as Boyle mentions in the last paragraph of the above snip it for me that is too close.
Back to Top
Second Chance View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 23116
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 3:39pm
Mate google this and you'll be able to read article in full:

John Boyce 
January 16, 2020
Back to Top
Take2 View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1871
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 4:47pm
good read!

change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodtock.com.au
Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 16301
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 8:31pm
I like to find crosses of female lines at a distance ie Danzig and Bletchingly.  Interesting in seeing a cross of Danehill Dancer and Street Sense male/female.  They also belong to the same female line.  Just more fun to search them out than to go too early.  Although plenty of time through history inbreeding to female lines has ended in a champion sire -

STAR KINGDOM (IRE)Chestnut colt 1946 
Stardust
Chestnut 1937
Hyperion
Chestnut 1930
Gainsborough
Bay 1915
Bayardo
Bay 1906
Bay Ronald
Galicia
1893
1898
3-o
10-a
Rosedrop
Chestnut 1907
St Frusquin
Rosaline
1893
1901
22-b
2-n
Selene
Bay 1919
Chaucer
Brown 1900
St Simon
Canterbury Pilgrim
1881
1893
11-c
1-g
Serenissima
Bay 1913
Minoru
Gondolette
1906
1902
5-c
6-e
Sister Stella
Chestnut 1923
Friar Marcus
Bay 1912
Cicero
Chestnut 1902
Cyllene
Gas
1895
1892
9-e
1-l
Prim Nun
Brown 1906
Persimmon
Nunsuch
1893
1894
7-f
20>
Etoile
Chestnut 1915
Sunstar
Brown 1908
Sundridge
Doris
1898
1898
2-g
5-i
Princesse de Galles
Brown 1906
Gallinule
Ecila
1884
1899
19-c
16>
Impromptu
Black 1939
Concerto
Brown 1928
Orpheus
Brown 1917
Orby
Chestnut 1904
Orme
Rhoda B
1889
1895
11-c
26>
Electra
Brown 1906
Eager
Sirenia
1894
1895
1-i
19-c
Constellation
Bay 1922
Sunstar
Brown 1908
Sundridge
Doris
1898
1898
2-g
5-i
Stop Her
Chestnut 1903
Carbine
Catcher
1885
1896
2-h
7>
Thoughtless
Bay 1934
Papyrus
Brown 1920
Tracery
Brown 1909
Rock Sand
Topiary
1900
1901
4-n
19-a
Miss Matty
Brown 1914
Marcovil
Simonath
1903
1905
12-c
16-f
Virgin's Folly
Bay 1928
Swynford
Brown 1907
John o' Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901
1893
3-e
1-g
Widow Bird
Chestnut 1919
White Eagle
Entebbe
1905
1910
5-j
1-g
 Ancestor duplications:Canterbury Pilgrim5m x 5m Sunstar4f x 4f   


DANEHILL (USA)Bay colt 1986 
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Brown 1954
Nearco
Brown 1935
Pharos
Nogara
1920
1928
13-e
4-r
Lady Angela
Chestnut 1944
Hyperion
Sister Sarah
1930
1930
6-e
14-c
Natalma
Bay 1957
Native Dancer
Grey 1950
Polynesian
Geisha
1942
1943
14-a
5-f
Almahmoud
Chestnut 1947
Mahmoud
Arbitrator
1933
1937
9-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Bay or brown 1959
Crafty Admiral
Bay 1948
Fighting Fox
Admiral's Lady
1935
1942
4-n
8-c
Olympia Lou
Brown 1952
Olympia
Louisiana Lou
1946
1944
4-p
4-n
Petitioner
Bay 1952
Petition
Bay or brown 1944
Fair Trial
Art Paper
1932
1933
9-c
16-g
Steady Aim
Bay 1943
Felstead
Quick Arrow
1925
1937
3-j
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Bay 1952
Tenerani
Bay 1944
Bellini
Tofanella
1937
1931
2-d
6-d
Romanella
Chestnut 1943
El Greco
Barbara Burrini
1934
1937
14-a
4-l
Flower Bowl
Bay 1952
Alibhai
Chestnut 1938
Hyperion
Teresina
1930
1920
6-e
6-d
Flower Bed
Bay 1946
Beau Pere
Boudoir
1927
1938
3-e
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Bay 1963
Tom Fool
Bay 1949
Menow
Gaga
1935
1942
8-g
3-j
Busanda
Black 1947
War Admiral
Businesslike
1934
1939
11-g
1-s
Natalma
Bay 1957
Native Dancer
Grey 1950
Polynesian
Geisha
1942
1943
14-a
5-f
Almahmoud
Chestnut 1947
Mahmoud
Arbitrator
1933
1937
9-c
2-d
 Ancestor duplications:Hyperion5f x 5m Natalma3m x 3f    


HEROIC (AUS)Chestnut colt 1921 
Valais
Chestnut 1913
Cicero
Chestnut 1902
Cyllene
Chestnut 1895
Bona Vista
Chestnut 1889
Bend Or
Vista
1877
1879
1-k
4-f
Arcadia
Chestnut 1887
Isonomy
Distant Shore
1875
1880
19-a
9-e
Gas
Bay 1892
Ayrshire
Bay 1885
Hampton
Atalanta
1872
1878
10-a
8-h
Illuminata
Brown 1877
Rosicrucian
Paraffin
1865
1870
5-i
1-l
Lily of the Valley
Bay 1899
Martagon
Bay 1887
Bend Or
Chestnut 1877
Doncaster
Rouge Rose
1870
1865
5-e
1-k
Tiger Lily
Bay 1875
Macaroni
Polly Agnes
1860
1865
14-a
16-g
Hamptonia
Bay 1886
Hampton
Bay 1872
Lord Clifden
Lady Langden
1860
1868
2-h
10-a
Feronia
Bay 1868
Thormanby
Woodbine
1857
1860
4-f
8>
Chersonese
Bay 1915
Cylgad
Bay 1909
Cyllene
Chestnut 1895
Bona Vista
Chestnut 1889
Bend Or
Vista
1877
1879
1-k
4-f
Arcadia
Chestnut 1887
Isonomy
Distant Shore
1875
1880
19-a
9-e
Gadfly
Bay 1896
Hampton
Bay 1872
Lord Clifden
Lady Langden
1860
1868
2-h
10-a
Merry Duchess
Bay 1882
Speculum
Grand Duchess
1865
1871
1-c
22-d
Chelandry
Brown 1894
Goldfinch
Bay 1889
Ormonde
Bay 1883
Bend Or
Lily Agnes
1877
1871
1-k
16-g
Thistle
Bay 1875
Scottish Chief
The Flower Safety
1861
1860
12-g
4-c
Illuminata
Brown 1877
Rosicrucian
Bay or brown 1865
Beadsman
Madame Eglentine
1855
1857
13-a
5-i
Paraffin
Bay 1870
Blair Athol
Paradigm
1861
1852
10-a
1-j
 Ancestor duplications:Bend Or5m,4m x 5m,5m Cyllene3m x 3m Hampton5m,4f x 4f 
  Illuminata4f x 3f       


Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 16301
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 8:32pm
another I should of added to above

SIR TRISTRAM (IRE)Bay colt 1971 
Sir Ivor
Bay 1965
Sir Gaylord
Bay 1959
Turn-To
Bay 1951
Royal Charger
Chestnut 1942
Nearco
Sun Princess
1935
1937
4-r
9-c
Source Sucree
Bay 1940
Admiral Drake
Lavendula
1931
1930
16-a
1-w
Somethingroyal
Bay 1952
Princequillo
Bay 1940
Prince Rose
Cosquilla
1928
1933
10-c
1-b
Imperatrice
Bay 1938
Caruso
Cinquepace
1927
1934
2-o
2-s
Attica
Chestnut 1953
Mr Trouble
Chestnut 1947
Mahmoud
Grey 1933
Blenheim
Mah Mahal
1927
1928
1-e
9-c
Motto
Bay 1932
Sir Gallahad
Maxima
1920
1925
16-a
13-b
Athenia
Bay or brown 1943
Pharamond
Brown 1925
Phalaris
Selene
1913
1919
1-i
6-e
Salaminia
Chestnut 1937
Man o' War
Alcibiades
1917
1927
4-c
8-g
Isolt
Bay 1961
Round Table
Bay 1954
Princequillo
Bay 1940
Prince Rose
Bay 1928
Rose Prince
Indolence
1919
1920
11-e
10-c
Cosquilla
Bay 1933
Papyrus
Quick Thought
1920
1918
16-f
1-b
Knight's Daughter
Bay 1941
Sir Cosmo
Bay 1926
The Boss
Ayn Hali
1910
1913
24>
6-a
Feola
Brown 1933
Friar Marcus
Aloe
1912
1926
20>
2-f
All My Eye
Chestnut 1954
My Babu
Bay 1945
Djebel
Bay 1937
Tourbillon
Loika
1928
1926
13-c
5-j
Perfume
Grey 1938
Badruddin
Lavendula
1931
1930
9-c
1-w
All Moonshine
Chestnut 1941
Bobsleigh
Chestnut 1932
Gainsborough
Toboggan
1915
1925
2-n
3-l
Selene
Bay 1919
Chaucer
Serenissima
1900
1913
1-g
6-e
 Ancestor duplications:Lavendula5f x 5f Princequillo4f x 3m Selene5m x 4f 
Back to Top
kavg View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Status: Online
Points: 3203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2020 at 10:13pm
Agree with the female duplication furious. In a few more years I'm going to be interested in the street cry, shamardal cross.
If you want peace in this world stop being a hypocrite and start with what is on your plate and in your bowl.
Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world.
Back to Top
diomed View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2016
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:49pm
I will do a bit on analysis on Sadler's Wells inbreeding.
My suspicion is the poor racecourse performance is in runners with an inbreeding duplication of two sons of Sadler's Wells.
Sadler's Wells had 1,727 sons/daughters, 13,622 grandchildren, 14,185 great-grandchildren in my data.
The 14,185 is split 9,916 through colts, 4,269 through daughters, a ratio of 2.3 sons of SW for every daughter of SW in the 3rd generation.
For Northern Dancer this imbalance of sons over daughters in the 3rd generation is much greater 14.2 to 1 (1st gen 519; 2nd gen 19,159; 3rd gen 95,190 split 88,933 to 6,257 or 14.2/1).
You should note that Sadler's Wells 3rd generation numbers are probably still building, and my guess is his ratio of sons to daughters will increase due to the large number of his sons who went to stud.

kincsem
Back to Top
diomed View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2016
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 2:41am
While my programs are running looking for Sadler's Wells inbreeding this post on another forum might interest you.

A few minutes ago I did a quick analysis of Sea The Stars. There are similarities with Galileo.
They are from the same dam, but different sires.
I am interested in how the two sires, Cape Cross and Sadler's Wells, match with Urban Sea. The matching will be different.

Sea The Stars has 55 duplication groups (224 horses) in 10 generations. Galileo has 58 groups (199 horses).
The similarity is that few of the early inbreeding groups of either i.e. those close to the horse, have the usual two sons (or more) of a duplicated sire found in the majority of modern pedigrees.

Sea The Stars:.......... f.m; m.mf; f.f; f.f; m.m; m.f; ff.f; mmf.f; f.m; mmmff.m; mfff.fff; f.ff; m.f; mmmmmmmmmmmmmmff.m. (bold are from duplicated dams)
Galileo:.................... f.m; mm.f; mf.ff; mf.m; mf.ffm.f; mmmf.m; f.m; f.f; f.f; mff.mfff; f.mmf; f.f

I took two colts rated 25 and 14 at random.
Random Colt 1: ........... m.m; m.mf; f.f; m.mm.fffm.m; f.f; m.m; f.mfff; m.mmmmmmmmmmfffff; m.mmfff
Random Colt 2: ........... f.f; m.mm; f.m; m.mm; f.f; f.ff; f.mmmm; m.mmmmmf; f.mff; f.f; ff.f; m.mmmmmmmmm; f.mmmfffff

The thing I expect and notice is the lack of duplicated sons of sires close up in Sea the Stars and Galileo.
In the poor horses there are (1) m.m x 4 (2) m.mm x 2 close up.
kincsem
Back to Top
kavg View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Status: Online
Points: 3203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 6:29pm
Look forward to the results diomed.
If you want peace in this world stop being a hypocrite and start with what is on your plate and in your bowl.
Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world.
Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Premium
Premium
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Online
Points: 43013
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Take2 Take2 wrote:

was going to post this on the galileo thread in the broodmare forum, but thought better of it after reading djebels post on sticking to the subject lol



What did I say and where ?

I am surprised I would have said anything about staying on topic. I might have but I am surprised.




reductio ad absurdum



Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Premium
Premium
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Online
Points: 43013
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 6:44pm
Found it. I was pissed off with myself, I was posting results that should have been Aussie mares only but was including others. Angry Embarrassed




reductio ad absurdum



Back to Top
Take2 View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1871
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 7:39pm
Clap
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodtock.com.au
Back to Top
diomed View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2016
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 8:42pm
I regret starting the analysis.
My ratings go to the end of 2016, but almost all horses with Sadler's Wells duplications ran after that.
My initial sample is 377,372 horses born 1986 or later, which is when the first Sadler's Wells foals were born.
Sadler's Wells duplications in that large sample: 0 SW, 341,667 horses, 90.54%; 1 SW, 32,021, 8.49%; 2 SW 713, 0.19%; 3 SW 2, 0.00%.
A few of the horses with SW x 2 are one-sided i.e. SW is either in the sire only, or the dam only.
At this stage I have about 130 rated horses out of 715 so I am looking up the ratings of about 600 horses, one at a time.
My feeling is this is a pointless exercise because it ignore an important fact.
The average number of inbreeding groups in six generations in the 715 horses is 2.77.
One of those groups is Sadler's Wells, about 36% by number of the inbreeding groups.
The analysis ignores the other 1.77 duplication groups, almost twice the Sadler's Wells inbreeding.

This is what Harold Hampton says
"close inbreeding to the same sex as the foal, within three free generations (e.g. 3x3), has a bad inhibiting effect."
"inbreeding within three free generations, can only affect with good results in speed, those foals who are of the opposite sex to the common ancestor"
The second comment suggests that you can only get a good filly (not that you will) to close sire inbreeding. 
Enable ticks that box, but she also has other instances of Hail To Reason, Nearco, Native Dancer, Lalun, all of which are in her Sadler's Wells duplications.
In other words, her ability is probably due to these four horses, not just to the close 2x3 Sadler's Wells inbreeding.  And she also has a duplication of Nasrullah, closely related to Aristophanes in Sadler's Wells.
[free generations = Count the horses between the sire of the foal and the duplicated ancestor.  Count the horses between the dam of the foal and the duplicated ancestor.  Add them.]

I had a look at the horses alphabetically closest to Enable (horse rating/dam rating):
117/105; 93/74; 129/102; 65/63; 79/120; 100/104
Perhaps other factors affect ratings.  
You could claim that a poor rating is due to Sadler's Wells inbreeding, but if you ignore the dam rating, and the other inbreeding in the foal, your conclusions are tentative.



kincsem
Back to Top
diomed View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2016
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 12:19am
I got sidetracked by the delivery of a new PC.  Then I decided to rearrange my computer table.
Now it has four PCs under the table, and four monitors on it.
I moved out a bookcase, and in another room moved three bookcases around to fit it in.
...............................................................................................................................

Ok, back to inbreeding to Sadler's Wells.
I have 577 horses with SW inbreeding and race ratings, and another 136 with SW duplications that I excluded from analysis (non-runner 37; probable non-runner 47; not rated 5; other inbreeding 5; one-sided inbreeding 42).
non-runner: obvious.  I found a record that said they did not run.
probable non-runner: I searched and could not find a record that they ran, or they ran in hurdle or jumps races only.
not rated: they ran and were not rated (possibly one run, or they ran in Chile or Poland or similar).
other inbreeding: they have Sadler's Wells twice in their pedigree but are inbred to sons or daughters of Sadler's Wells W (Meet At Dawn (Galileo); Oiche Na Gealai (Galileo); Million Fresh (Saddlers Gal); Lady Oaksey (Barathea); Tea Lady (Galileo))
one-sided inbreeding:  Sadler's Wells is only in the sire or the dam, but is not represented on each side of the pedigree.

At this stage I am not judging, but only listing the results
The average rating of the 577 runners was 77.1
In my inbreeding analysis of Jan/Feb 2017 159,222 runners had an average of 78.9.

inbred ... horses ... avg rating
1x4 ............2...........77.0
2x2 ............1...........94.0
2x3 ..........33...........78.6
2x4...........59...........80.8
2x5............4............90.3
3x2............8............86.3
3x3.........190...........75.4
3x4..........168..........76.4
3x4.4..........1...........77.0
3x5............28..........80.4
4x2.............4..........46.5
4x3............31.........73.0
4x4............33.........76.5
5.5x4...........1.........40.0
5x2.............2..........93.0
5x3.............4..........96.3
5x4.............2..........82.0
5x5.............1........102.0
two horses has SW three times, the others had SW twice.

m.f  ........184..........79.6
m.m........220..........79.2
m.mf..........1...........77.0
f.m..........110..........74.1
f.f..............61..........67.8
mm.m.........1..........40.0
184 horses with a son (m) of SW on their sire side, and a daughter (f) on their dam side had average ratings of 79.6.

403 dams of the 577 rated runners were rated.
The rating of the dams was 9.0 above their runners 77.1 rating.

A selection of the 112 sires of the 577 runners.

sire..............runners.......rating...........dam rating
Authorized ............19..........84.3 ................-5.2
Dream Ahead.........21..........78.3...............-14.2
Galileo...................36.........92.3.................-7.7
Hurricane Run.........14.........81.4................+1.7
New Approach.........35.........82.0...............-14.6
Rip Van Winkle........17.........64.7...............-29.0
Sakhee...................14........75.3.................-4.6
Sakhee's Secret ......16........66.9.................-2.3
Teofilo....................30........81.2.................+0.5
Whipper..................17........65.4................-13.4
explanation: 
the 14 Sakhee runners inbred to SW had an average rating of 75.3, and their dams averaged 79.9

Yes, two runners were 1x4 Sadler's Wells.
Sapphire Bracelet (rated 75) and Scottish Reel (rated 79) are both by Sadler's Wells out of Necklace.
Necklace (rated 115) has Sadler's Wells as sire of the sire (Barathea) of their second dam.

I will add a few personal opinions, and opinions from books on pedigree analysis later.



kincsem
Back to Top
diomed View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2016
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 4:14am
I wrote an inbreeding analysis program in Jan/Feb 2017 and used it to buy a mare in Dec 2017 and another in Dec 2018.  The inbreeding program analyses the first six generations. 
In Dec 2018 I prepared test-matings of about 3,900 mares on offer with 605 stallions in IRE, GB, FR, 2,346,190 test-mating foal. 
I prepared a short list of 863 from 2,346,190 and then only looked at 313 of the 863.
I ignored any pedigree in the 313 possible with inbreeding in the first three generations.

In the above work on horses with Sadler's Wells inbreeding I would have ignored 540 of the 577 horses (keeping 33+1+2+1=37).

In Stud Book Lore (1951, 284 pages in 74 chapters) by C M Prior and F M Prior, a book based on articles written between 1904 and 1938, there is a chapter , Examples of Very Close Inbreeding.
"It has long been held as an axiom by those connected with the racehorse that the nearest degree of relationship at which it is advisable and animal should be inbred is between great-grandparents, or at the very most, not nearer than the second and third remove."

The closest inbreeding possible is 1x2 (sire and damsire the same male) or 2x1 (dam of sire and dam the same female).
Prior mentions a mating of the sire Magoos (1936) (by Kindred out of Cleone by The Tetrarch) with Cleone by The Tetrarch.  
This 2x1 mating of a son with his mother was tried two years in a row, and in each case the produce died.
The opposite is also mentioned, a stallion Jokelet mated with his own daughter, a Linny (1890) mare, in both 1902 and 1903.  In each case the produce died.
Prior also lists close inbreeding that worked, Robin Redbreast (1796); Agonistes (1797); Tiney (1801); Milo (1802), all by Sir Peter Teazle out of Wren, all inbred 2x2 to the mare Papillon and 3x3 to the sire Herod.
Robin Redbreast (m) won many races, and was an outstanding success at stud; Agonistes (m) won 14 races; Tiney (f) was beaten in a match, her only race; Milo (m) won five races.
"Unions of half-brother and sister (2x2), are rare ... Richard Croker put his 1000 Guineas winner Rhodora (St Frusquin-Rhoda B) to Orby (Orme-Rhoda B), with a dire result, which nearly caused the death of his mare."

In Horse Breeding in Theory and Practice (1909, 467 pages) by Buchard von Oettingen he devotes 96 pages to Inbreeding.
He did a lot of work on the best distance for inbreeding using English Derby, Oaks, and St Leger winners.

free gens .............winners
0 (2x2).....................1
1 (2x3).....................9
2 (3x3).....................46
3 (3x4; 4x3) ............84.5
4 (3x5; 4x4; 5x3) .....86
5 (4x5; 5x4).............81.5
6 (5x5; 4x6; 6x4).....41
7 (5x6; 6x5)............7
The generations in brackets are mine, to translate from free generations to generations.
Free generations counts the generations between the sire of the foal (or dam of the foal) and the duplicated sire.

You might wonder how can there be so many horses (577) with inbreeding to Sadler's Wells but only Enable remains in the memory as a good horse.

In The Thoroughbred Breeders' handbook (1997) by Clive Harper there is a clue on page 27.
He mentions that in Inbred Mares as Brood Mares" by John Hislop in The British Racehorse July 1967 he lists seventeen closely inbred mares who have produced stakes winners: Flagette; Tourzima; Palaos; Deva; Barley Corn; Clovelly; Thiorba; Miss France; Hesper; Philippa; Royale Maitresse; Petite Lass; Maid of the Mist; Perfume; Santorin; Two Cities; Flirting.  
Clive Harper says that every one of these quoted by Hislop has the same pattern.
They all have on their sire side a duplication of an ancestor behind their dam's inbreeding and always have an opposite sex line of it - always!

In good horses you often find in the rest of the pedigree support to the inbreeding.
For example, if Sadler's Wells if the duplicated horse, support would be the sire of Sadler's Wells (Northern Dancer) or his dam (Fairy Bridge) or his four grandparents Nearctic; Natalma; Bold Reason; Special (or her full siblings Lisadell; Thatch) or you might find in the rest of the pedigree a full sibling of Sadler's Wells (e.g. Fairy King; Tate Gallery) or 3/4 siblings (e.g. Nureyev; Perugino; Bound; Number).

A look at the top rated of the 577 horses
Enable (129) in inbred 3x2 to Sadler's Wells does not have the opposite sex lines, but she has Hail To Reason; Nearco; Nearctic; Native Dancer; Nasrullah; Lalun that are in Sadler's Wells in other areas of her pedigree.
Helene Paragon (126) also has Northern Dancer; Special; Natalma found in SW in other areas, but also separate inbreeding to Blushing Groom 5x5; Shirley heights 5x5; Habitat 6x6.
Kamsin (121) does not have elements of Sadler's Wells (4x4) elsewhere in his pedigree but he has Surumu 4x3; Neckar 6x6; Kronung 5x6; full siblings Cockade and High Top 4x5 (both Derring-Do out of Camenae).  He also has support lines to Surumu (Reliance and Birkhan).

My preference is to ignore close inbreeding and plan multiple inbreedings in the 4th, 5th, 6th and earlier generations, perhaps six or more inbreeding groups, and those groups should, if possible, be related.
My new program (unfinished) analyses ten generations.
Previous work by Buchard Von Oettingen, Harold Hampton and others decades ago may have been limited by the necessity to write out on paper the extended pedigree.
In the 1990s it took me about 15 minutes to write out a four generation pedigree on paper (six generations is four times that).
Perhaps previous work was hampered by the manual labour of writing out pedigrees, and there is more to learn from the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th generations where there are up to 70 duplication groups, and larger groups.

A discussion on close inbreeding should not focus on one sire, in this case Sadler's Wells.
That suggests that close inbreeding to Sadler's Wells does not work, but it does work with other sires.
No work was done to see if close inbreeding worked with other sires.

I think it usually will not work as found in almost every one of the 577 pedigrees I examined - a duplication of Sadler's Wells and not much else, giving an average rating of 77.1, median 78.

kincsem
Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 16301
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 11:33am
Hi Diomed totally agree with your findings.  An amazing amount of great stallions in Australasia have inbreeding to their female line.  Ie Danehill, Star Kingdom, Sir Tristram and Heroic.

Heroic was closely inbreed but at least Cyllene is on the 3rd line and Illuminata is 4f x 3f.  He was a headstrong colt and often refused to jump but at the same time was an outstanding racehorse and sire.

Danehill was 3m x 3f to Natalma which was close also but other that a cross of Hyperion in the 5th generation no other close ties.

Sir Tristram had a cross of Princequillo 4f x 3m and Selene 5m x 4f and Lavendula 5f x 5f.  While Star Kingdom was well back with Sunstar 4f x 4f and Canterbury Pilgrim 5m x 5m, 6f.

Sadler's Wells blood has crossed to all these lines but at the same time hasn't had the success here that Danehill had.  Different racing patterns?  Who knows.  Galileo should of just jumped out of the box with the crosses but it didn't seem to work as well as expected.  Crossing too close to Sadler's Wells in Australia would seem dicy at best.  But he was a great stallion and I can understand why people try it.
Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 16301
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 12:58pm
That said Russian Camelot goes very well!
Back to Top
kavg View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Status: Online
Points: 3203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 7:47pm
Fascinating kincsem. Much appreciated.
If you want peace in this world stop being a hypocrite and start with what is on your plate and in your bowl.
Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world.
Back to Top
Ticino View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 3229
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 7:56pm
Hello,
very interesting read regarding "Sadlers Wells",
After 30 yeras of researching Pedigrees I found the same Patterns. I don't have a Programm. but usually I Use Pedquery. Btw, there is a Topic about inbreeding in thoroughbreds at thier Forums
 
Most of our Sires or Standing in Germany are sons/grandsons or even Grandgrand sons of Sadlers Wells, because he was out of the pricerange of most Germanbreeders.
For example "Adlerflug" by In the Wings is a Grandson, but had an interesting Connection to "Allegretta", because his Granddam "Alya" is FS.
 
On the otherhand "Soldier Hollow" (by In the Wings), very succesful in my homecountry is bred
4x4 Lisadell/Special FS's.
If you read through my posts  (3 and 2 year old racing in Germany) you will certainly note the growing number of horses inbred/linebred to Sadlers Wells and his Close relatives.
 
It quite some time ago, I post a listing of Thoroughbreds titled "Tailfemalebreeding", you might find interesting.
 
regards, Ticino
P.S.: I own all 3 books you mentioned in your post!
 
 
Back to Top
Glencoe View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Location: Mt. Gambier S.A
Status: Offline
Points: 1306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 11:09pm
Furious , you may have overlooked what Kingmambo's antecedents bring to the table. The duplications he offers thru Native Dancer cross and the Special cross may very well be the factors that contribute most
Back to Top
diomed View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2016
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 276
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2020 at 11:47pm
Thanks for the replies.
One thing I learned in the last few days is do not move bookcases about. Ermm

I am not saying close inbreeding can not be successful.  There are many top horses bred that way.

An example is the good runner and great sire, Turn-To (1951)
He is 3x3 m.f to Pharos but
 he also has 5x4 Spearmint f.f; 5,6x5 Sundridge ff.m; 6x4 Swynford m.f; 6x5 St Simon m.f; 
 and extras Sainfoin (m) in Pharos, and Sierra (f) in Sundridge are full siblings i.e. Sainfoin twice and Sierra three times.

Another closely inbred horse is the mare Coronation (1946)
She is Tourbillon 2x2 m.f.  Tourbillon is by Ksar, who is in turn inbred 3x2 to Omnium.  Crucially Ksar has three extra lines found in Omnium is other areas of his pedigree: Dollar; Hermit; Stockwell.
 Coronation also has Teddy 4x4 f.m, and in other areas Bay Ronald, damsire of Teddy, and Bay Ronald's sire Hampton twice, and a line of Rabelais who is in Tourbillon.

This is difficult to follow without having the pedigree on screen to guide you, but what is obvious is that simple inbreeding, say two instance of one duplicated sire is not enough.
You also need horses elsewhere in the pedigree, perhaps three or four, that are in the pedigree of the duplicated sire (his parents or grandparents).
And it helps if there are other duplication groups in the pedigree.
kincsem
Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 16301
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2020 at 1:21pm
It also helps if you are inbreeding to a horse or mare which has proven successful for the female line before.  The number of times I see inbreeding to a horse which hasn't worked in the pedigree before.  It just seems to be the wrong thing to do.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.





Click here to bet with our preferred online bookmaker, Unibet.