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    Posted: 21 Nov 2022 at 9:20pm



Imagine believing in something where there are no facts to back it up, not one, that's dogma and that is insanity, are humans basically insane creatures pretending to be sane ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 7:17am
We have had these threads a few times Fiddler. 

Last time i went head to head with Max Manewer for about 50 pages.

 Surprisingly our views didn't change LOL

For me it is the most illogical concept. To have a supreme being produce something like our Universe just for us. And then to make us wait 13 billion to see what he came up with Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 8:13am
"For me it is the most illogical concept."

Not if you think of it as a way to get power and wealth and control of society for yourself and your priestly class - it makes perfect sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 8:30am
One of my best mates went all religious a few years back. Must admit that he seems much more at ease with himself since doing so. 

Scary thing is that I always considered him to be a logical thinker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 8:56am
I was born a catholic and I still am.  I had a pretty good guide in my father who was the kindest man I've ever known.  But not sure you find me logical.  But I also know you don't have to be religious to be good.  But also you don't have to be insane to be religious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 9:01am
And if you were born a Muslim Furious ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 9:04am
Must admit i have met some really soft / lovely religious people. Is there a correlation between being deeply religious vs being generous / nice ?
 
I would hope their is. Otherwise makes it all a bit pointless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 9:05am
I know very good Muslims, Hindus Buddhists Jews and Christians.

Just the extremists control the dialogue and project their intolerance and hate through politics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 9:11am
My mate i mentioned above surprised me with his views re other religions. If your not Christian you don't get the eternal life stuff that he claims he's getting. So would claim to be  tolerant - but not really as i see it. Other religions probably the same when it gets down to tin tacks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 9:14am
Hindus and Buddhists dont have that control over their followers, you keep coming back with them. Probably why they dont have organized churches. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

I know very good Muslims, Hindus Buddhists Jews and Christians.

Just the extremists control the dialogue and project their intolerance and hate through politics.

These people are good people anyway, they don't need religion to be like that, why does being a good person and being religious have to have anything to do with each other ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 10:35am
Good point. So what comes first - being a good person or being religious ? There would be some that say the latter . I wouldn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 10:40am
For all this though their is a reality all non-religious folk have to face. We are only here / relevant for a fleeting moment. And that in as little as a few generations are long forgotten. 

Something I occasionally  struggle with

Jeffrey Dahmer had his own peculiar way of dealing with that LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 10:53am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

For all this though their is a reality all non-religious folk have to face. We are only here / relevant for a fleeting moment. And that in as little as a few generations are long forgotten. 

Something I occasionally  struggle with

Jeffrey Dahmer had his own peculiar way of dealing with that LOL

Religion is nothing more than a coping mechanism for the weak minded who can't bare the thought that when we die that's it. Why do they care so much, they didn't know any better when they hadn't been born yet so what's the difference, you just go back to sleep. People are basically scared, frightened little creatures who look for anything they can to give themselves meaning and comfort, the first thing we all look for when are born is the teat, almost instantly our instincts are to seek comfort and food, safety and warmth. We are not born religious we are born scared and curious, for the scared there is religious dogma, it serves as the most shared and most popular form coping mechanism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 10:56am
People like Dahmer and other serial killers, war mongers etc, strongly battle with their immortality, it's the reason why they do what they do, so they can leave behind a legacy that they hope people will talk about long after they're gone. It's why we see pyramids and giant statues from ancient times, people are scared of dying and their vanity can't stand that they won't be remembered. Just look at what people do on social media, they simply can't bare for people not to look at them and say something nice or remember them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 10:57am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

I was born a catholic and I still am.  I had a pretty good guide in my father who was the kindest man I've ever known.  But not sure you find me logical.  But I also know you don't have to be religious to be good.  But also you don't have to be insane to be religious.

No you weren't born a catholic at all, you were born a human into a family that taught you to be a certain religion, you had no chance from day one. 
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That makes sense.

Mind you - I haven't quite given up on the merits of Dahmer's approach. He remains much better known than any of his victims LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

"For me it is the most illogical concept."

Not if you think of it as a way to get power and wealth and control of society for yourself and your priestly class - it makes perfect sense.

I'm not sure that was the intention originally back 2 or 3 thousand years ago. It would more likely have been a theological debate that flourished around everywhere in villages and towns, a way to try understand the world and stars, discuss it openly, bring forth theories and see which ones stick, a way of finding out to see if anyone knew what was going on..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 11:04am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

That makes sense.

Mind you - I haven't quite given up on the merits of Dahmer's approach. He remains much better known than any of his victims LOL

...and that's exactly why they do it, the more heinous the crimes the more they will be talked about, the victims become even less remembered the more gruesome the murders. Serial killers will often link religion into the story to give it some kind of supernatural prowess about it, at the end of the day these people are scared little freaks that act out their imaginations while the rest of us suppress them and get on with life.  
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Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

I know very good Muslims, Hindus Buddhists Jews and Christians.

Just the extremists control the dialogue and project their intolerance and hate through politics.
 
 My closest neighbours: One, a Muslim family. They've had a few huge family parties over the years, but always apologise if they get noisy. All nice people, pleasant, respectful, and friendly toward my girls. We say a cheerful 'hello' whenever we meet. No probs. No religious preaching. Generally, pretty quiet family. The older girls and mum wear hijabs. It's no different to me wearing a scarf...if I wanted to.    

 Second neighbour: Fifty-something widowed mother, who brought up three girls, one of whom is my younger daughter's best friend. The mother is Catholic. Never stops preaching at me. Hates Muslims, Jews, anyone LGBQTI...even though her youngest daughter is lesbian. Not sure if mum knows. Mum is a fanatic Lib voter...she loved Abbott. I send her up, mercilessly, whenever she starts on one of her rants. She doesn't realise I'm doing it. She's not a total nutcase. Just brought up to believe all the crap in the bible...then never acts like a decent Christian. 

 I've lived next to Greek, Aboriginal, Estonian and Aussie neighbours...and the only ones who were annoying were the Catholic ones. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 2:42pm
I didn't say anything against non believers yet you think I had no chance from day one?  I was taught to be tolerant of others.  I was taught that no one is perfect so you forgive others when they hurt you because no doubt you will say or do something sometime for which you will beg forgiveness.  We all do it's human nature and I'm great at stepping in and thinking afterwards.  I was taught to love my fellow man and woman. 

Yet to you I am weak?  Like everyone Fiddlesticks it is the person who chooses to do the wrong thing or hurt someone.  Not because they are or are not religious.  

Lawyers blame mental illness for alot of ills taken before the courts.  Maybe its an in balance in the brain that causes most wrong doing.  But then for the perpetrator and their victims I'd say they need to be separated from society until illness is fixed.  But religion isn't the cause of mental illness either. 

I don't think I better or worst than you.  I just try to do the best I can and help if or where I can.  No doubt you try to do the same.  Just like all those poor folks stranded in the floods helping each other where they can even though they have lost so much.  Isnt' that the way we want our society to be?

So don't I think the same as you despite believing in my christian upbringing.  My sister married a muslim.  I have baptists, uniting, born again, church of England etc in the family.  Amazingly we all get along.  THe born again are probably the most adamant of religions.  Alot of them have come to it as adults.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jujuno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

My mate i mentioned above surprised me with his views re other religions. If your not Christian you don't get the eternal life stuff that he claims he's getting. So would claim to be  tolerant - but not really as i see it. Other religions probably the same when it gets down to tin tacks

 Seventh Day Adventists believe only the go to heaven.

 I've never had the heart to tell them heaven doesn't exist. 

 Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 2:43pm
Hope I can make a case for other Catholics out the Juno.  We aren't all like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

I didn't say anything against non believers yet you think I had no chance from day one?  I was taught to be tolerant of others.  I was taught that no one is perfect so you forgive others when they hurt you because no doubt you will say or do something sometime for which you will beg forgiveness.  We all do it's human nature and I'm great at stepping in and thinking afterwards.  I was taught to love my fellow man and woman. 

Yet to you I am weak?  Like everyone Fiddlesticks it is the person who chooses to do the wrong thing or hurt someone.  Not because they are or are not religious.  

Lawyers blame mental illness for alot of ills taken before the courts.  Maybe its an in balance in the brain that causes most wrong doing.  But then for the perpetrator and their victims I'd say they need to be separated from society until illness is fixed.  But religion isn't the cause of mental illness either. 

I don't think I better or worst than you.  I just try to do the best I can and help if or where I can.  No doubt you try to do the same.  Just like all those poor folks stranded in the floods helping each other where they can even though they have lost so much.  Isnt' that the way we want our society to be?

So don't I think the same as you despite believing in my christian upbringing.  My sister married a muslim.  I have baptists, uniting, born again, church of England etc in the family.  Amazingly we all get along.  THe born again are probably the most adamant of religions.  Alot of them have come to it as adults.

You fail to see that you would be like that regardless of religion, religion cannot take credit for people being decent, that's just plain wrong. 
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 only they go to heaven..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2022 at 2:47pm
Imagine not questioning religion, to be utterly faithful because that's how you were brought up. Don't question it, just be a good christian, jew, muslim whatever, I find that strange to put it very mildly. 
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I didn't say that fiddlesticks.  I just said we are the same and not saying I'm right or wrong.  I'm saying I'm try to be the best I can.  And I'm sure you do also.  But in a few times when I've really been down something stepped in and helped me overcome the despair.  The overwhelming feeling of love was enough to let me know I wasn't alone and to get on with things.
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and then I watch this and am filled with warmth at the togetherness and strength people find in doing things together, for each other. But then I realise they don't don't need religion to be like this, we could all be like this, minus the religion and the world would be an absolutely glorious place to live in.  
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The only time I've not let god touch my heart was when my husband died.  I needed to grieve and wasn't ready to let that grieving go.  So I pretty much held him at bay for over a year.  Silly as that sounds to any other catholic.  So now you can pity me my faith.  But although I can't explain it properly as I said above if you really despair and call for help you find the strength to carry on.

And I sorry Juno that someone of my faith is like you neighbour.  You also can't blame religion for intolerance.  Greed or dislike of someone different is the usual cause of disharmony.  Religion comes into it before we have just a many greedy scared people who don't understand that the greatest message was to love one another.  That means everyone.  Even the one trying to do you harm.  Pretty hard standard to uphold so we all fail sometimes.
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