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Notes on breeding Superior Racehorses

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Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 3:47pm
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Topic: Notes on breeding Superior Racehorses
Posted By: Take2
Subject: Notes on breeding Superior Racehorses
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2025 at 8:50pm

Noted Australian Thoroughbred pedigree expert Ken MacLean was often quoted as saying that multiples of both Blue Larkspur and Teddy in a Pedigree would “Produce enough Genetic energy to light up a city”

The Genetic Affinities of Blue Larkspur and Teddy in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Exploring the Power of Pedigrees

Noted Australian Thoroughbred pedigree expert Ken MacLean was often quoted as saying that multiples of both Blue Larkspur and Teddy in a pedigree would "produce enough genetic energy to light up a city." This statement highlights the significant impact that certain genetic combinations can have on the performance potential of racehorses. To understand the veracity of MacLeod's claim, it is essential to delve into the pedigrees of renowned racehorses that exhibit these affinities and explore the scientific basis for these genetic influences.

Understanding Blue Larkspur and Teddy

Blue Larkspur

Blue Larkspur, born in 1926, was a remarkable Thoroughbred racehorse and stallion. His pedigree boasts impressive names, including his sire Black Servant, and his dam Blossom Time. Blue Larkspur's success on the track, including victories in prestigious races such as the Belmont Stakes, solidified his reputation. His genetic legacy is marked by his ability to produce offspring with exceptional speed and stamina.

Teddy

Teddy, foaled in 1913, was another influential Thoroughbred stallion whose pedigree and progeny left an indelible mark on the racing world. His sire, Ajax, and his dam, Rondeau, contributed to Teddy's prowess as a racehorse and a sire. Known for his versatility, Teddy produced offspring that excelled in both sprinting and endurance races.

Exploring the Genetic Energy

Scientific Basis

The concept of "genetic energy" mentioned by Ken MacLean can be understood through the principles of genetics and inheritance. Certain genetic combinations in a pedigree can amplify desirable traits such as speed, stamina, and overall performance. By analysing the pedigrees of superior racehorses, it is possible to identify patterns and affinities that contribute to their success.

Three Notable Racehorses with Blue Larkspur and Teddy Affinities

Several racehorses have demonstrated the powerful genetic combination of Blue Larkspur and Teddy in their pedigrees. These horses serve as examples of how these affinities can translate into racing excellence.

·         Native Dancer: Known as the "Grey Ghost," Native Dancer was an exceptional racehorse with a pedigree that included both Blue Larkspur and Teddy. His impressive record of 21 wins out of 22 starts showcases the genetic energy that MacLeod referred to. Native Dancer is the maternal Sire of the immortal Natalma, Dam of Northern Dancer, and ancestress top and bottom of Danehill

 

·         Kelso: A five-time American Horse of the Year, Kelso's pedigree features multiple instances of Blue Larkspur and Teddy. His remarkable endurance and consistency on the track are testaments to the genetic impact of these affinities.

 

·         Secretariat: The legendary Secretariat, whose Triple Crown victory in 1973 remains unparalleled, also carries the bloodlines of Blue Larkspur and Teddy. His extraordinary speed and stamina exemplify the power of these genetic combinations.

Conclusion

Ken MacLean's assertion about the genetic energy produced by multiples of Blue Larkspur and Teddy in a pedigree is backed by the success of numerous racehorses that exhibit these affinities. The pedigrees of horses such as Native Dancer, Kelso, and Secretariat provide compelling evidence of the impact of these genetic combinations on racing performance. By understanding and leveraging the power of pedigree, breeders can continue to produce Thoroughbreds capable of lighting up the racing world with their genetic brilliance.

copyright (c) take2 april 2025




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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au



Replies:
Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2025 at 8:56pm
from the Bloodhorse.com re repeat matings, and the success therefrom

"Repeat matings of a pairing that has proven successful seems like mere common sense. The 17th Earl of Derby, one of the most influential breeders of all time, not only followed up proven matings in this fashion but advocated the position that if one believed in a mating enough to try it at all, one should repeat it twice more before moving on. On the other hand, some breeders voice a fear of “going to the well too often” and are reluctant to repeat a mating more than once.

Which is the better strategy for producing good runners?

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Anecdotal evidence is rich on both sides. For instance, California matron Cee’s Song threw multiple grade II winner Budroyale as her second foal by Cee’s Tizzy. Her subsequent seven foals by the same sire included 2000 Horse of the Year Tiznow , grade II winner Tizdubai, and grade II-placed stakes winner  https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/tizbud/1999?source=BHonline" rel="nofollow - On the other hand, 1937 Triple Crown winner War Admiral had five full sisters that managed to win just one race among them. Native Dancer also had five full siblings, of which only one was a winner. Citation had three full siblings, of which one won. The list of high-profile failures that were full siblings to a top horse is long and seemingly endless.

In truth, of course, the odds are stacked against a good runner being duplicated by a sibling. On average, full siblings share just 50% of their genes, meaning that siblings can vary widely in genetic potential. Add to this the influence of environmental factors—training, nutrition, general handling, early experiences, and so on—and it’s easy to see why more full siblings to good horses fail than make names for themselves.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/daily" rel="nofollow - - BloodHorse 

Still, common sense would indicate that full siblings to a good horse have a better chance of being good runners themselves than half siblings, all other factors being equal and the respective sires being of roughly equal merit. As a test of this hypothesis, consider the produce records of the dams of horses named Horse of the Year since official championships began in 1936 up through 2004. (As many repeat matings are done on the basis of an early foal’s success, the cut-off year was chosen to exclude mares whose produce records are not yet close to complete.) While this is not a random sample of the Thoroughbred population by any means, or even a random sample of all good runners, the resulting pool of horses may still yield some useful information.

Collectively, the dams of the 60 champions studied were an outstanding bunch of broodmares. In total, they produced 554 named foals of racing age, of which 340 (61.4%) were winners and 87 (15.7%) were stakes winners. Those are excellent figures, and the percentage of winners would probably be even higher were it not for owners’ tendency to retire untalented sisters and half sisters to good horses to the breeding shed after just a few races rather than drop them into the claiming ranks where they might have a realistic chance to win.

Sixteen of the champions studied had no full siblings; the remaining 46 champs had 120 full siblings among them. (Interestingly, 36 of these elite runners were the firstborn among their sets of full sibs, which is natural if most repeat matings are made because of the production of a top runner or at least a very promising foal.) By contrast, there were 434 half siblings to champions in the studied group. But if these results are any indication, perhaps breeders should have tried repeat matings more often. Of the half siblings, 261 (60.1%) won and 59 (13.6%) became stakes winners. But the full siblings yielded 79 winners (65.8%) and 28 stakes winners (23.3%).

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The proverbial lightning seldom strikes twice, and the odds a truly great horse will be duplicated in a sibling are slim even under the best of circumstances. But at least from the evidence presented here, repeating a successful mating is a good way of substantially improving the odds of getting a good horse, and that’s all any breeder can reasonably ask."




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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2025 at 9:08pm
Second Chance often quotes AEI figures, there is many of us that do not understand how it owrks, so here is an explanation

Average Earnings Index (AEI) for Stallions

Understanding High, Medium, and Low AEI

The Average Earnings Index (AEI) is a significant metric used in the equestrian world to evaluate the financial performance of stallions based on their offspring's earnings in competitions. This index helps breeders and buyers to make informed decisions about the potential value and profitability of a stallion's progeny. The AEI is categorized into three levels: high, medium, and low, each reflecting different degrees of earnings and success.

High Average Earnings Index (High AEI)

Stallions with a high AEI are those whose offspring consistently earn substantial amounts of prize money in various competitions. The specific figure that constitutes a high AEI can vary depending on the competitive landscape and economic conditions. However, a stallion with an AEI of 2.00 and above is generally regarded as having a high AEI. These stallions are often sought after for breeding because their progeny have a proven track record of success, indicating genetic superiority and potential for high returns on investment.

Medium Average Earnings Index (Medium AEI)

A medium AEI represents a stallion whose offspring earn moderate amounts of prize money. Stallions with an AEI ranging from 1.00 to 1.99 are typically considered to have a medium AEI. This group is valuable to breeders who are looking for stallions that can produce competitive offspring without the premium cost associated with high AEI stallions. Medium AEI stallions offer a balance between performance and affordability, making them accessible options for many breeders.

Low Average Earnings Index (Low AEI)

Stallions with a low AEI are those whose offspring earn below average amounts of prize money in competitions. An AEI below 1.00 is usually classified as low. These stallions might be less desirable for competitive breeding purposes but can still have a place in the market for niche breeding programs or for those prioritizing other traits such as temperament, conformation, or specific genetic characteristics. Breeders may opt for low AEI stallions if they are working within a limited budget or focusing on non-competitive aspects of breeding.

Factors Influencing AEI

Several factors impact a stallion's AEI, including:

·         Genetic Quality: The inherent genetic traits passed on to offspring play a crucial role in determining their competitive success and earnings.

·         Training and Management: The quality of training and management of the offspring can significantly affect their performance and earnings.

·         Competition Level: The level and frequency of competitions in which the offspring participate influence their earnings and, consequently, the stallion's AEI.

·         Market Conditions: Economic factors and prize money distribution in the equestrian industry can affect the earnings of offspring.

Conclusion

Understanding the Average Earnings Index (AEI) is essential for anyone involved in the equestrian breeding industry. It provides a straightforward measure of a stallion's financial impact through its progeny, helping breeders and buyers make informed decisions. Whether opting for high, medium, or low AEI stallions, it is crucial to consider the various factors that influence these indices and align breeding choices with specific goals and resources.

copyright (c) take2 april 2025


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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2025 at 9:11pm
how to impliment a Breediing program or theory

Implementing Desired Genetic Influences in a Horse's Pedigree

Breeding Techniques and Genetic Management

Introduction

Breeding horses for specific traits has been a practice for centuries, with the goal of enhancing desirable characteristics such as speed, endurance, temperament, and physical appearance. The modern approach to horse breeding combines traditional methods with advanced genetic management techniques to "switch" on or implement desired genetic influences in a horse's pedigree.

Understanding Genetic Influences

Genetic influences refer to the inherited traits passed down from parent to offspring through genes. These traits can be physical, behavioural, or even health-related. In horses, genetics play a crucial role in determining qualities such as coat color, height, muscle structure, and predisposition to certain diseases.

Selective Breeding

Selective breeding is the most traditional method of influencing a horse's genetic makeup. By carefully choosing parent horses that exhibit desired traits, breeders can increase the likelihood that these traits will be passed on to the next generation. This method relies on understanding the genetic history of both the mare and the stallion and predicting the potential outcomes of their offspring.

Line Breeding and Inbreeding

Line breeding involves mating horses that are closely related but not directly inbred, aiming to consolidate desirable traits within a specific lineage. Inbreeding, on the other hand, involves mating closely related horses to intensify specific genetic qualities. While effective in enhancing certain traits, inbreeding carries the risk of increasing the prevalence of undesirable recessive genes, leading to potential health issues. The ideal method to use in Linebreeding, is to identify from the Pedigree, what Archetypes are most advantageous, and search for sires containing those desired to linebreed to

Crossbreeding

Crossbreeding, or outcrossing, involves mating horses from different breeds or bloodlines to introduce new genetic material and enhance specific traits. This method can improve genetic diversity, reduce the risk of inherited disorders, and combine the strengths of both parent breeds. However, it requires careful selection to ensure that the desired traits are not compromised.

Genetic Management Techniques

Advancements in genetic science have introduced new methods for managing and implementing desired genetic influences in horse breeding.

Genetic Testing

Genetic testing allows breeders to analyse the DNA of horses to identify specific genes associated with desired traits. By understanding the genetic makeup of potential parent horses, breeders can make informed decisions about mating pairs to enhance the likelihood of passing on desirable characteristics. Genetic tests can also identify carriers of hereditary diseases, enabling breeders to avoid mating pairs that could produce affected offspring.

Marker-Assisted Selection

Marker-assisted selection (MAS) is a technique that uses genetic markers to select horses with specific desirable traits. These markers are associated with genes that influence traits such as speed, agility, or coat color. By selecting horses with the appropriate markers, breeders can implement desired genetic influences more efficiently.

Genome Editing

Genome editing technologies, such as CRISPR, offer the potential to directly modify the DNA of horses to enhance specific traits. While still in the experimental stages for equine breeding, this method could revolutionize how genetic influences are implemented by allowing precise alterations to the genetic code. Ethical considerations and regulatory challenges must be addressed before genome editing becomes a standard practice.

Pedigree Analysis and Management

Managing a horse's pedigree involves tracking and analyzing the genetic history of breeding lines to ensure the implementation of desired genetic influences.

Pedigree Charting

Pedigree charting visually represents the lineage of a horse, highlighting the genetic connections between ancestors and offspring. By examining these charts, breeders can identify patterns and trends in the inheritance of traits, helping to make informed decisions about future breeding pairs.

Coefficient of Inbreeding

The coefficient of inbreeding (COI) measures the degree of relatedness between mating horses. A low COI indicates minimal inbreeding, while a high COI suggests closer genetic relationships. Managing COI is crucial to balancing the implementation of desired traits with maintaining genetic diversity and minimizing health risks. Around 5% coeff (Wrights) is considered to be the cutoff, and inbreeding with a higher % should be treated with caution to ensure that plans do not go awry, for the sake of marketability or fashion.

Performance Record Analysis

Analyzing the performance records of horses within a pedigree can provide insights into the effectiveness of breeding strategies. Traits such as racing speed, endurance, and temperament can be evaluated to determine the success of genetic management techniques.

Conclusion

Implementing desired genetic influences in a horse's pedigree involves a combination of selective breeding, genetic management techniques, and careful pedigree analysis. By leveraging advancements in genetic science and maintaining ethical breeding practices, breeders can enhance the quality and performance of their horses while ensuring the health and diversity of future generations.

The integration of traditional methods with modern genetic technologies offers exciting possibilities for the future of equine breeding. As breeders continue to refine their techniques and expand their understanding of genetics, the ability to "switch" on desired genetic influences will become increasingly precise and impactful, leading to the development of superior horses that excel in their respective disciplines.

copyright (c) take2 april 2025


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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2025 at 11:16am
Breeding buffs should download all this stuff.  Star

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It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2025 at 12:12pm
Thx for dat Runfer
This on Genetic Weighting, theories on Breeding Thoroughbreds are like dingers, everyone has one

Utilisation of the Genetic Weighting Formula

An example of its application for racehorses

The Genetic Weighting Formula is a tool used to estimate the genetic potential of racehorses based on the abilities of their sire and female ancestors. The formula is represented as follows:

GP = (Sire_ability × 0.5) + (Female_ability × 0.5)

To provide a practical example, let us consider two racehorses: Thunderbolt and Lightning Flash. Thunderbolt is the sire and Lightning Flash is the dam. We need to evaluate their abilities to predict the genetic potential of their offspring, Storm Runner.

Step-by-Step Calculation

Determining the Sire's Ability

The sire of Storm Runner is Thunderbolt. In this example, Thunderbolt’s racing ability has been quantified based on past performances, speed, and endurance. Let’s assign Thunderbolt a racing ability score of 85.

Determining the Female's Ability

The dam of Storm Runner is Lightning Flash. Similarly, we evaluate Lightning Flash’s racing ability by considering her past performances, speed, and endurance. Let’s assign Lightning Flash a racing ability score of 80.

Applying the Formula

Using the Genetic Weighting Formula, we can calculate Storm Runner’s genetic potential as follows:

·         Sire_ability (Thunderbolt): 85

·         Female_ability (Lightning Flash): 80

·         GP = (85 × 0.5) + (80 × 0.5)

·         GP = 42.5 + 40

·         GP = 82.5

Therefore, based on the Genetic Weighting Formula, Storm Runner’s genetic potential is estimated to be 82.5.

Implications of the Genetic Weighting Formula

The Genetic Weighting Formula provides a simplified yet effective method to gauge the potential performance of racehorse offspring. By using this formula, breeders and trainers can make informed decisions on pairing racehorses to enhance the likelihood of producing high-performing progeny.

Factors Influencing Genetic Potential

It is important to note that while the Genetic Weighting Formula offers valuable insights, it is not an absolute predictor of a racehorse’s future performance. Several factors can influence the genetic potential, including:

·         Training and conditioning

·         Diet and nutrition

·         Environmental factors

·         Inherent health and physical attributes

Additionally, genetics can sometimes produce unexpected outcomes, as the combination of genes from the sire and dam can interact in complex ways. Thus, the Genetic Weighting Formula should be used as one of several tools to evaluate and develop racehorse potential.

Conclusion

The Genetic Weighting Formula offers a structured approach to estimate the genetic potential of racehorses. By analyzing the abilities of both sire and female ancestors, breeders can make strategic decisions to optimize breeding practices. However, it remains essential to consider other factors such as training, nutrition, and overall care to achieve the best possible outcomes for racehorse development.

Using the formula:

GP = (Sire_ability × 0.5) + (Female_ability × 0.5)

we have demonstrated how Thunderbolt and Lightning Flash’s abilities translate into the genetic potential of their offspring, Storm Runner. While Storm Runner’s genetic potential score of 82.5 is promising, the true test will be in its development, training, and performance on the racetrack.

copyright (c) take2 april 2025




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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 1:15pm
Inbreeding, long been conjecture around, here is my take to further muddy the waters

Inbreeding Recommendations for Thoroughbreds

Expert Opinions and Guidelines

JJ Vuillier, the principal bloodstock advisor to the Aga Khan III, along with his wife, Mme Germaine Vuillier, have been long-time proponents of carefully regulated inbreeding practices within the Thoroughbred community. Their expert opinion, grounded in years of experience and extensive research, highlights key recommendations aimed at preserving the health and genetic diversity of Thoroughbreds.

Guidelines for Inbreeding

The Vuilliers advised strongly against inbreeding closer than the fifth generation. This recommendation is based on their thorough understanding of the potential complications that can arise from close genetic relationships. They assert that inbreeding within closer generations can lead to an array of genetic disorders and health issues, thus should be generally avoided to maintain the vitality of the Thoroughbred lineage.

Exceptions to the Rule

Despite their cautious stance on inbreeding, the Vuilliers have identified a notable exception. Inbreeding involving siblings, particularly full brothers, does not carry the same level of risk as other close genetic pairings. Under certain specific circumstances, this form of inbreeding may be considered. Their belief is that such exceptions, if managed carefully, can be beneficial without introducing significant genetic risks. They did however make a case for inbreeding from one ancestor in the 3rd/ 4th remove back to other ancestors in the 5th remove and beyond, subject to certain criteria being met, and as evidenced by Ezelia, (see further reference)

As an example, Zahra (filly named after Aga Khan IV's daughter) pedigree has many inbreeding’s from the 5th remove backwards:

Plucky Liege (1912) - F - 16-a 5m, 6m x 4m

Teddy (1913) - M - 2-n 5m, 7f x 2 0

Swynford (1907) - M - 1-g 5m, 7f x 6m

Phalaris (1913) - M - 1-i 7m, 7m x 5m 3

Scapa Flow (1914) - F - 13-e 7m, 7m x 5m

Lady Josephine (1912) - F - 9-c 8f x 5f, 6f

Gainsborough (1915) - M - 2-n 7m x 5m, 5f

Spearmint (1903) - M - 1-c 6f, 7f, 8f x 5f

Concertina (1896) - F - 16-a 6f, 7f x 5f, 7f

Blandford (1919) - M - 3-o 8m x 5m.

The many inbreeding’s from the 6th remove and beyond are omitted.

In later years, it seems with the emergence of Princess Zahra Aga Khan, who undertook much of the hands on management from her Father, there has been a more relaxed approach to the question of inbreeding. This shift is evident in the pedigree of English Oaks Heroine, Ezelia, which shows multiple instances of inbreeding from the fourth remove back, many involving females.(however the Wright’s coeficient on inbreeding is only 2.77%, well inside the recommended 5% cutoff) This trend reflects a nuanced understanding of genetic principles and a willingness to balance tradition with modern scientific insights. The message being, one needs to be adaptable to change in philosophy, recognising that because of the number of thoroughbreds worldwide now, the shrinking of the genetic pool, is somewhat diluted because of the somewhat separate populations in USA, South America Europe and Australia and New Zealand, thereby enabling access to diversity

Emphasis on Genetic Diversity

The cornerstone of the Vuilliers' guidance is the emphasis on maintaining genetic diversity within the Thoroughbred breeding program. By avoiding close inbreeding and encouraging a broader genetic pool, breeders can ensure the health, endurance, and overall vitality of future generations of Thoroughbreds. Genetic diversity is crucial for the long-term sustainability and success of these esteemed horses, protecting them from inherited disorders and enhancing their adaptability.

In conclusion, the recommendations provided by JJ and Mme Germaine Vuillier serve as a vital framework for Thoroughbred breeders, balancing the risks and benefits of inbreeding practices. Their advice underscores the importance of strategic breeding decisions, aimed at preserving the integrity and excellence of the Thoroughbred lineage for generations to come.

Copyright © take2 April 2025




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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: diomed
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 9:18pm
I asked my old copy of TesioPower to tell me how many horses had Blue Larkspur (1926) (m) and Teddy (1913) (m) in the first six generations of their pedigrees.
The number of A4 pages was massive. 300 pages took me from 'N Easy Buck (1978) (m) to Galoon (1981) (f) and it continued all the way to Zuzaxa (1987) (f). The report counter said 242,145 horses.

My data has 714,166 horses. If you exclude horses born before 1929 (55,158) that gives 659,008 that could have Blue Larkspur and Teddy. 242,145 of 659,008 is 36.74% of horses in my data have Blue Larkspur and Teddy in six generations.

3 good horses from 242,145 is not proof of genetic energy to light up a city.


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foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree


Posted By: diomed
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 10:47pm
I had a look at the three top horses that owe their ability to Blue Larkspur (1926) and Teddy (1913).

I expected to find those two ancestors in the pedigrees of Native Dancer (1950) (m); Kelso (1950) (g); Secretariat (1970) (m).


Native Dancer (1950) (m) 
has Black Toney (1911) in his pedigree in the 5th generation.  Black Toney (1911) is sire of Black servant (1918) who was sire of Blue Larkspur (1926).
As far as I see Native Dancer (1950) does not have Teddy (1913) in his pedigree, nor does he have Ajax (1901), sire of Teddy, nor does he have Rondeau (1900), dam of Teddy.

Kelso (1957) (g) 
has Black Toney (1911), sire of Black servant (1918), sire of Blue Larkspur (1926) in his 6th generation.
has Ajax (1901), sire of Teddy (1913) in his 6th generation.


Secretariat (1970) (m) 
I do not see Blue Larkspur (1926), or his sire Black Servant (1918), or his sire Black Toney (1911) in Secretariat.
has Teddy (1913) in his 5th generation, and Ajax (1901), sire of Teddy (1913) in his 7th generation (in Nearco (1935) (m)).


Perhaps I have misread the three pedigrees.



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foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 11:03pm
"3 good horses from 242,145 is not proof of genetic energy to light up a city"

best you take that up with ken Mclean, it is his quote, not mine, i merely referenced it and is found in a few of his 6 or so books, i think the exact quote was the more of those two the better
I also asked my copy of tesiopower to find how many instances of Blue larkspur and Teddy I have , and i have 1,574,330 Total horses including unraced/unnamed from sales etc on my db, and it refused to filter winners initially, so i will do it another way, and get back to you, when i do some backing up onto a website i can get an exact count on winners which  apart from the eaarly days when all records havent been entered, but will give an insight into how the multiples have fared
I have 330,667 horses with the cross out of the 1.5 million which is about 20% of the population of my database, that DO have the teddy / blue larkspur cross
Teddy entered stud at age 5 so you have eliminated produce from 1918-1926, which is a bit unfortunate, as it would have eliminated all his early daughters and their produce as well as sons, McLean never specified whether it was all Blue larkspur over Teddy or vice verce  He was imported to the US as an 18 year old, 

incidently, the following horses have the cross, i will just put 10 or so here for now
Roberto 2 of blue larkspur and 3 of teddy
AP Indy 4 Bl and 10 teddy
Seattle Slew 3 BL and 5 teddy
Halo 2 BL and 1 teddy
Acclamation 1 BL and 15 teddy
Declaration of War BL 8 33 teddy
Machiavellian 3 BL  5 teddy
Street Cry 5 BL and 11 teddy
Bel Esprit (Black Caviar Sire ) 1 Bl and 9 Teddy
Churchill 8 Bl    32 teddy
Galileo  4 BL    15 teddy
Frankel 6 BL   26 teddy
Finally got the filter to work errh and then it crashed, but  iwill get a definitive number of the winners swinners and g1s from the 300,000 i can getand from the 330 plus thousand horse with Blue Larkspur and teddy in the pedigree of 12 generations which is ALWAYS used with Vuilier methodology. there is


i could keep going but it gets a little tedious suffice to say that from my db of over 1.5m and over 330,000 instances of Blue larkspur and teddy in pedigrees, including multiples in Roberto, AP indy, Seattle Slew Decalaration of War,Machiavellian, Street Cry, Churchill, Galileo and Frankel, and many more i have not boithered to include, would certaiinly light up a small town if not larger  IF the  Genetic Energy therein could be harnessed, and bear in mind the produce of all those sires with multiples, that have the same multipples to a lesser degree some have more












Link to Pedigreequery Forum/message board
https://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/search.php?keywords=teddy+and+blue+larkspur+cross&sid=b164b9d3dbffe513138e8cc9d756348a" rel="nofollow - https://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/search.php?keywords=teddy+and+blue+larkspur+cross&sid=b164b9d3dbffe513138e8cc9d756348a



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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 11:05pm



Perhaps I have misread the three pedigrees.

[/QUOTE]
  for a start i did not say anything about 6 generations which you have based your research on either


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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 11:06pm



"Perhaps I have misread the three pedigrees".

[/QUOTE]
  for a start i did not say anything about 6 generations which you have based your research on either and i think YOU maybe familiar with the thread i linked?



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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: diomed
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 11:18pm
I first looked at six generations to see how common was Blue Larkspur and Teddy in pedigrees and it is very common, in good and bad horses.
Then I looked at 7, 8, 9, 10 generations for the three horses listed and what you see above is what I found.


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foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 11:29pm
not saying you are right or wrong, but since i have had tesio which is from the first edition until the latest, i have input winners and stakesinners g1 winners etc as much as i can , just so it could be a reliable source of data, which as you know once you get enough info into your data,m a trend can be established which usually holds sway until infinity
ATM i am just waiting on it to come up with how many named and unamed from the 330K willpost them inaminit


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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2025 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

I first looked at six generations to see how common was Blue Larkspur and Teddy in pedigrees and it is very common, in good and bad horses.
Then I looked at 7, 8, 9, 10 generations for the three horses listed and what you see above is what I found.
BUT you never found Roberto, AP indy, Seattle Slew Decalaration of War,Machiavellian, Street Cry, Churchill, Galileo and Frankel,but that "may" be because you only went to 10 gens, and that, simply, is not the manttra i follow, like i said 12 gens is the go for Vuillier which is what i do, incidently the reason it is very common is because the old farts worked it out years ago and did it almost religiously
as far as the good and bad horses produced on the cros, that  in itself is breeding in a nutshell as any mating can and will produce good and bad horses, however. its he % og good over bad that matters, like the % of stakeswiners a good sire produces like danehill with something like 15% and now frankel with a higher figure


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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: diomed
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2025 at 12:24am
I found 242,145 horses with Blue Larkspur and Teddy.
Perhaps "Roberto, AP indy, Seattle Slew Decalaration of War,Machiavellian, Street Cry, Churchill, Galileo and Frankel" were in the 242,145, but are you claiming they owe their ability to Blue Larkspur and Teddy.

Your conclusion
Conclusion
Ken MacLean's assertion about the genetic energy produced by multiples of Blue Larkspur and Teddy in a pedigree is backed by the success of numerous racehorses that exhibit these affinities. The pedigrees of horses such as Native Dancer, Kelso, and Secretariat provide compelling evidence of the impact of these genetic combinations on racing performance.

But Native Dancer, Kelso, and Secretariat do not have Blue Larkspur and Teddy in their pedigrees.  The "compelling evidence" does not stand up to scrutiny of their pedigrees.  They do not have "multiples of Blue Larkspur and Teddy". They do not even have both of them once.


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foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2025 at 12:57am
You are correct, so i will have to revisit the quote of of kelso and native dancer secretariat does have one of teddy, not sure why the other two came up as having it, i may have had 2 pages going and copied the wrong one, but a mistake is a mistake so i will wear that and ammend accordingly and add Roberto, AP indy, Seattle Slew Decalaration of War,Machiavellian, Street Cry, Churchill, Galileo and Frankel & Buckpasser, and the other group ones when i can isolate them as tesio keeps crashing with the filter, prob 300,000 is too much to filter
thx for highlighting that
of the 330,000 odd with the cross in 12 generations, which if you take the time to read anything that i have posted about pedigrees i have consistently said 12 generations
ok out of the 300,000 odd i have 3,157 unnamed


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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2025 at 1:26am
Here is he ammended Blue larkspur- Teddy article, he original contained 3 errors which were pointed out by Diomed, the ammeded actually reinforces the message

Noted Australian Thoroughbred pedigree expert Ken MacLean was often quoted as saying that multiples of both Blue Larkspur and Teddy in a Pedigree would “Produce enough Genetic energy to light up a city”

The Genetic Affinities of Blue Larkspur and Teddy in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Exploring the Power of Pedigrees

Noted Australian Thoroughbred pedigree expert Ken MacLean was often quoted as saying that multiples of both Blue Larkspur and Teddy in a pedigree would "produce enough genetic energy to light up a city." This statement highlights the significant impact that certain genetic combinations can have on the performance potential of racehorses. To understand the veracity of MacLeod's claim, it is essential to delve into the pedigrees of renowned racehorses that exhibit these affinities and explore the scientific basis for these genetic influences.

Understanding Blue Larkspur and Teddy

Blue Larkspur

Blue Larkspur, born in 1926, was a remarkable Thoroughbred racehorse and stallion. His pedigree boasts impressive names, including his sire Black Servant, and his dam Blossom Time. Blue Larkspur's success on the track, including victories in prestigious races such as the Belmont Stakes, solidified his reputation. His genetic legacy is marked by his ability to produce offspring with exceptional speed and stamina.

Teddy

Teddy, foaled in 1913, was another influential Thoroughbred stallion whose pedigree and progeny left an indelible mark on the racing world. His sire, Ajax, and his dam, Rondeau, contributed to Teddy's prowess as a racehorse and a sire. Known for his versatility, Teddy produced offspring that excelled in both sprinting and endurance races.

Exploring the Genetic Energy

Scientific Basis

The concept of "genetic energy" mentioned by Ken MacLean can be understood through the principles of genetics and inheritance. Certain genetic combinations in a pedigree can amplify desirable traits such as speed, stamina, and overall performance. By analysing the pedigrees of superior racehorses, it is possible to identify patterns and affinities that contribute to their success.

Notable Racehorses with Blue Larkspur and Teddy Affinities

Several racehorses have demonstrated the powerful genetic combination of Blue Larkspur and Teddy in their pedigrees. These horses serve as examples of how these affinities can translate into racing excellence.     

·         Roberto - AP indy - Seattle Slew - Declaration of War – Machiavellian - Street Cry - Churchill   Galileo - Frankel – Buckpasser, and to top it all off arguably one of the finest Sires in History, the great Danehill boasts multiples of Teddy and Blue larkspur ,

·         Secretariat: The legendary Secretariat, whose Triple Crown victory in 1973 remains unparalleled, also carries the bloodlines of Teddy. His son Risen Star carries both Blue Larkspur and Teddy in 12 gens

·         Legendary Australian Racemares Black Caviar- Winx- Makybe Diva- and Pride Of Jenni and Her Sire Pride Of Dubai all carry this amazing affinity, Pride Of Jenni gets an additional 20 instances of Teddy, and one more line of Blue Larkspur via her dam Sancerre

 

Conclusion

Ken MacLean's assertion about the genetic energy produced by multiples of Blue Larkspur and Teddy in a pedigree is backed by the success of numerous racehorses that exhibit these affinities. The pedigrees of horses such as  Roberto - AP indy - Seattle Slew - Declaration of War – Machiavellian - Street Cry - Churchill   Galileo - Frankel - Buckpasser -  Black Caviar- Winx- Makybe Diva- and Pride Of Jenni   provide compelling evidence of the impact of these genetic combinations on racing performance. Pride of jenni inherited a further 20 iinstances of Teddy through her dam, along with another instance of Blue larkspur. By understanding and leveraging the power of pedigree, breeders can continue to produce Thoroughbreds capable of lighting up the racing world with their genetic brilliance.

copyright (c) take2 april 2025

 




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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2025 at 1:52am
but wait, theres more

Determining the Best Mares to Source for Breeding Successful Racehorses

Guidelines and Practical Strategies

The importance of the female in determining the abilities of the sire has long been acknowledged in the world of horse breeding. As Mme Vuillier wisely stated, “it’s the Mare who makes the Stallion and not the reverse.” A successful stallion, paired with the right mare, significantly enhances the chances of producing a successful racehorse. But how can this be practically achieved? What are the best ways of determining the type of mares to source? Below, we explore various types and qualities of mares that should be considered to maximize the potential of breeding superior runners.

Types and Qualities of Mares to Source

Raced Mares

·         Performance Record: Mares that have demonstrated outstanding performance on the track are valuable. Their racing history can give insights into their speed, stamina, and competitive spirit.

·         Injury History: Evaluate their health and injury records to ensure they are capable of producing sound offspring.

Black Type winning  Mares

·         Proven Success: Black type winners, those who have won or placed in stakes races, have proven their quality on the track. These mares are highly sought after for their demonstrated capability to compete at the highest levels.

·         Genetic Influence: Their genetic traits can greatly influence the performance of their offspring, making them a valuable addition to a breeding program.

Successful Producers

·         Track Record of Offspring: Mares that have already produced successful racehorses offer a reliable indication of their breeding potential. Their offspring’s performance speaks volumes about their genetic contribution.

·         Consistency: Look for mares that consistently produce high-quality runners, indicating strong and reliable genetics.

Producers of Superior Runners

·         High-Performing Progeny: Mares whose offspring have excelled on the track, particularly in top-tier races, are extremely valuable. Their ability to pass on superior traits is confirmed by the success of their progeny.

·         Legacy: These mares often become the cornerstone of breeding programs, contributing significantly to the legacy and success of future generations.

Unraced Mares

·         Pedigree: While they may not have a racing record, their lineage can provide clues to their potential. Look for mares with ancestors who were successful racehorses.

·         Conformation: Physical attributes such as build, strength, and gait should be carefully assessed to ensure they possess qualities conducive to breeding strong racehorses.

Unraced Mares with Strong Pedigree

Potential Unseen: Unraced mares, though they lack a track record, can still offer immense value to a breeding program. Their potential lies in their pedigree, which can be rich with high-performing ancestors.

Genetic Lottery: Breeding with unraced mares is akin to playing a genetic lottery, where the rewards can be substantial if the mare's lineage is strong. Such mares often carry the latent potential of their illustrious forebears.

Mares with Exceptional Pedigree

Lineage Matters: The pedigree of a mare is a crucial factor in breeding decisions. Mares hailing from families with a history of producing champions are highly prized.

Ancestral Excellence: The influence of renowned sires and dams in the pedigree can significantly enhance the chances of producing superior offspring, making such mares a strategic choice for any breeding program.

Mares with Potential for Improvement

Untapped Talent: Some mares, whether raced or unraced, may show potential for improvement in their offspring. These mares may not have had stellar careers themselves but possess genetic traits that can benefit their foals.

Breeding Strategy: By pairing these mares with top-quality stallions, breeders can unlock the hidden potential in their genetics, leading to the production of high-caliber racehorses.

 

 

Optimum Age for Broodmares

Prime Years: The age of a broodmare is a critical aspect to consider in breeding programs. Most breeding experts agree that the optimum age range for broodmares to produce superior racehorses is between 4 to 12 years. During these prime years, mares are typically at the peak of their reproductive health and can pass on their genetic strengths most effectively.

Balancing Act: While younger mares might have fresher genetics, older mares bring the advantage of proven fertility and foaling records. Striking a balance by maintaining a broodmare band within this age range can significantly elevate the chances of breeding outstanding racehorses.

Significance of Foaling Numbers

First Foals: The order in which a broodmare produces her foals can also impact the quality of her offspring. Many breeders believe that first second to sixth foals often carry a unique vigour and potential, (First foals are often “behind the eight ball in size at birth due to the confined spaces in maiden mare s uterus etc, ) attributable to the mare's fresh genetic material and optimal reproductive health during her early breeding years.

Later Foals: Conversely, foals born later in a mare's breeding career can benefit from the mare's maturity and proven fertility. These foals may inherit advantageous traits honed through the mare's previous breeding experiences, potentially leading to enhanced performance on the racetrack.

Optimal Strategy: It is important for breeders to carefully monitor the performance of a mare's foals over time, adjusting breeding strategies to maximize the genetic potential of both first and later foals. By balancing the production of foals across a mare's prime years, breeders can effectively harness the strengths of each foal, increasing the likelihood of producing superior runners.

 

Conclusion

In conclusion, sourcing the right mares for a breeding program is pivotal in enhancing the chances of producing successful racehorses. Whether they are raced, unraced, black type winners, successful producers, or producers of superior runners, each type of mare brings unique qualities to the table. By carefully evaluating their performance, pedigree, conformation, and track record of offspring, breeders can make informed decisions that will ultimately lead to greater success on the racetrack.

Copyright © take2 march 2025




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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 08 May 2025 at 9:36pm

The Most Successful Foaling Number of Thoroughbred Broodmares

Analyzing the Impact of Foaling Order on Racing Success

The world of thoroughbred racing is one of precise breeding and careful management, where the success of a racehorse can often be traced back to its lineage and the strategic choices made by breeders. Among these choices, the foaling order of a thoroughbred broodmare—whether a mare's first, second, third, or subsequent foal—has generated significant interest and study. This document explores the most successful foaling number for thoroughbred broodmares and delves into the reasons behind these findings.

Foaling Order and Its Implications

Foaling order refers to the sequence in which a broodmare gives birth to her offspring. For instance, a mare's first foal is her initial offspring, followed by the second, third, and so on. It is believed that the mare's age, health, and breeding experience can influence the quality and performance of her foals.

First Foal

The first foal often carries a unique set of challenges and advantages. While some breeders believe that a mare's first foal may not reach its full potential due to the mare's inexperience, others argue that first foals can be highly successful. The mare's optimal health and vigor during her early reproductive years can contribute positively to the first foal's development. However, historical data suggests that first foals tend to have a lower success rate in terms of racing performance compared to their siblings.

Second Foal

The second foal of a broodmare is often considered more promising than the first. By this time, the mare has gained experience in birthing and nurturing her offspring, and the physical stress of the first birth has been mitigated. The second foal benefits from the mare's improved maternal instincts and overall health, leading to better growth and development. Studies have shown that second foals frequently exhibit higher racing success, possibly due to these factors.

Third and Subsequent Foals

As the mare continues to produce offspring, her experience and physical condition play crucial roles. The third and subsequent foals often benefit from a well-established reproductive routine. However, the success rates can vary significantly based on the individual mare's health and genetics. Some mares maintain high reproductive efficiency and produce outstanding racehorses well into their later foaling years, while others may experience a decline in foal quality over time.

The Case for the Sixth Foal

Intriguingly, some data suggests that the sixth foal may be particularly successful. This phenomenon may be attributed to the mare's optimal balance of experience and physical condition at this stage. By the sixth foal, a mare is typically in her prime reproductive years, having mastered the nuances of nurturing her young while retaining robust health. The sixth foal often benefits from the mare's accumulated experience and sustained vigor, leading to notable achievements on the racetrack.

Factors Influencing Foaling Success

Mare's Age and Health

The mare's age and overall health are critical factors in determining the success of her foals. Younger mares, particularly those in their early reproductive years, tend to produce healthier and more vigorous foals. As mares age, their reproductive efficiency may decline, affecting the quality of their offspring. However, with proper care and management, older mares can still produce successful racehorses.

Breeding Techniques

Advancements in breeding techniques, such as artificial insemination and embryo transfer, have allowed breeders to optimize the reproductive potential of broodmares. These techniques enable the careful selection of sire and timing of breeding, enhancing the chances of producing successful foals regardless of the mare's foaling order.

Nurture and Environment

The environment in which a foal is raised plays a significant role in its development. Proper nutrition, veterinary care, and early training contribute to the overall health and performance of the foal. Broodmares that receive excellent care and are kept in optimal conditions are more likely to produce successful offspring across multiple foaling orders.

Conclusion

The foaling number of thoroughbred broodmares is a fascinating aspect of equine breeding that can impact the success of racehorses. While each foaling order presents its own set of challenges and advantages, the second and sixth foals often stand out as particularly successful. Factors such as the mare's age, health, breeding techniques, and nurturing environment play crucial roles in determining the quality and performance of the foals. Ultimately, the art and science of thoroughbred breeding continue to evolve, driven by the pursuit of producing champions on the racetrack.

 

Copyright © take2  may 2025



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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: brave_ponies
Date Posted: 08 May 2025 at 10:16pm
THANK YOU TAKE2 for sharing your incredible knowledge with us! Clap



Posted By: brave_ponies
Date Posted: 08 May 2025 at 10:21pm
I’ll be reading the broodmare and foal number articles several times.

It’s great to know that the ‘first foal folklore’ holds up; but the 6th foal … blow me down. How freakin fascinating is that?!!


Posted By: mc41
Date Posted: 08 May 2025 at 10:50pm
Fascinating read,information galore
Excellent insights Thank u 


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acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the land on which we meet and pay my respects to their Elders past and present


Posted By: Sister Dot
Date Posted: 08 May 2025 at 10:51pm
Black Caviar was a first foal, though of course it’s all based on percentages. 

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“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 10 May 2025 at 3:28pm
NOT exackery on breeding, however in the same vein, 

So, you want to buy a racehorse, or yearling/Weanling?

The Importance of Conformation in Yearling and Weanling Racehorses

Understanding conformation—the physical structure and alignment of a racehorse—is essential when assessing the potential of yearlings and weanlings for competitive racing. Each anatomical attribute plays a pivotal role in determining the horse’s performance, durability, and overall health.


The Importance of the Head and Neck in Horse Conformation

Assessing Key Anatomical Features for Performance and Balance

Introduction

The evaluation of a horse’s head, neck, and related anatomical features is crucial in determining its overall conformation and suitability for competitive racing or other equestrian disciplines. The head, poll, eyes, ears, and throatlatch width are not merely aesthetic elements—they significantly contribute to the horse’s biomechanics, respiratory function, balance, and communication. Understanding these components provides insight into a horse's potential for performance, endurance, and agility.

The Head and Its Importance

Anatomy and Function

The head serves as the horse’s primary tool for sensory perception and communication. It includes the skull, eyes, ears, nostrils, and mouth, each playing a specific role in the horse's interaction with its environment. The proportion and alignment of the head reflect the horse’s overall balance and symmetry.

Impact on Conformation

A well-proportioned head is essential for physical balance. Horses with excessively large or small heads may experience difficulty in maintaining equilibrium during movement. Additionally, the shape and size of the nostrils influence respiratory efficiency, which is vital during high-intensity activities such as racing.

Eyes and Ears

The position and size of the eyes allow for a wide field of vision, which is critical for spatial awareness and reaction time. Prominent, clear eyes are often indicative of a healthy horse with sharp vision. Similarly, the ears provide auditory awareness and are an integral part of the horse’s communication, reflecting attentiveness and mood.

Head Set into the Neck

Anatomy and Balance

The connection between the head and neck is referred to as the “head set.” A proper head set ensures that the horse’s head is positioned in a manner that supports optimal balance and movement. This alignment is determined by the angle and placement of the neck where it meets the base of the skull.

Importance for Performance

A well-set head into the neck contributes to the horse’s ability to flex and extend its neck during various activities, such as galloping, turning, or jumping. This flexibility is essential for maintaining rhythm and fluidity in stride. Conversely, an improperly set head may hinder the horse’s movement and increase strain on the neck muscles.

The Poll and Throatlatch

The Poll: A Pivotal Joint

The poll, located at the top of the head between the ears, is a crucial pivot point for head movement. It enables the horse to angle its head appropriately, affecting its ability to respond to reins and achieve proper posture. A poll that is flexible and free from tension enhances the horse’s manoeuvrability and responsiveness.

Throatlatch Width

The throatlatch, or jowl, is the area situated between the jawbones and the neck. The width of the throatlatch plays a significant role in respiratory efficiency. A narrow throatlatch may restrict airflow, especially during strenuous activities, while an adequately wide throatlatch allows for unobstructed breathing and facilitates neck movement.

Impact on Communication and Training

The throatlatch also influences how comfortably a horse can carry its head and respond to cues from a rider. A horse with a well-developed throatlatch is more likely to exhibit ease in training and compliance with rein commands, enhancing the overall riding experience.

Integration of Features and Overall Balance

Proportional Harmony

The head, neck, poll, and throatlatch must work in harmony to maintain overall balance and coordination. Disproportionate features can disrupt the horse’s symmetry, leading to inefficiencies in movement or increased risk of injury.

Influence on Competitive Performance

In racing, where speed and endurance are paramount, the integration of these anatomical features directly affects the horse’s biomechanics. Proper conformation in these areas ensures that the horse can perform at its peak potential with minimal strain.

The head and neck, along with related features such as the poll, eyes, ears, and throatlatch width, are vital components of horse conformation. Their influence extends beyond aesthetics, impacting respiratory function, agility, balance, and communication. Assessing these attributes with care ensures that a horse is well-equipped for competitive racing or other equestrian activities, highlighting the profound interplay between anatomy and performance.

The Chest

Anatomy and Function

The chest of a racehorse encompasses the thoracic cavity, which houses vital organs such as the heart and lungs. The width and depth of the chest are indicators of the horse’s respiratory and cardiovascular capacity. A well-developed chest provides ample space for larger lungs and a stronger heart, allowing for more efficient oxygen uptake and transportation during strenuous activity.

Importance for Racing

A broad and deep chest contributes to endurance and speed. It facilitates robust aerobic capacity, enabling a horse to sustain high performance over longer distances. Horses with narrow chests may face limitations in oxygen intake and might not perform as consistently under the physical demands of racing. Moreover, chest conformation affects limb alignment; proper alignment minimizes the risk of strain or injury during high-speed galloping.

Length of the Barrel

Anatomy and Function

The barrel refers to the cylindrical portion of the horse's body between the front and hind limbs. It encompasses the ribcage and abdominal cavity. The length and shape of the barrel influence the horse’s center of gravity and stride efficiency.

Importance for Racing

A longer barrel often correlates with a longer stride, which can give a racehorse an advantage by covering more ground with each step. However, it is essential for the barrel length to be proportionate to the horse’s overall build; an excessively elongated barrel can lead to imbalance and reduce agility. Additionally, the depth and roundness of the barrel contribute to respiratory efficiency, as they allow the lungs to expand fully during inhalation.

Balancing Chest and Barrel Proportions

The relationship between the chest and barrel is integral to a horse’s balance and biomechanics. Ideal conformation ensures that both features work harmoniously to optimize stride length, stability, and respiratory function. Horses with disproportionately large chests or excessively long barrels may struggle with coordination, affecting their racing performance.

The chest and barrel are pivotal components of thoroughbred racehorse conformation, influencing respiratory efficiency, stride capability, and overall athletic potential. Breeders and trainers should carefully evaluate these attributes alongside other conformation factors when assessing a horse’s suitability for competitive racing. A balanced and proportionate structure not only enhances performance but also supports the horse’s long-term health and durability in the demanding world of thoroughbred racing.

 

Stride

The length and fluidity of a racehorse's stride are vital indicators of athletic ability. Horses with longer, efficient strides expend less energy per step, allowing them to maintain speed over longer distances. A smooth and even stride is also a sign of good balance and coordination.

Shoulders

The angle and slope of the shoulders directly affect stride length and range of motion. Well-sloped shoulders contribute to greater reach in the forelimbs, enhancing the horse’s ability to cover ground effortlessly. Additionally, balanced shoulders reduce strain on joints and muscles, lowering the risk of injury.

Pasterns

The length and angle of the pasterns are key determinants of shock absorption. Ideally, the pasterns should have a moderate slope to cushion the impact of each stride, reducing stress on the limbs and ensuring long-term soundness.

Neck

The neck should be proportionate and well-muscled, providing balance and allowing for efficient movement. A strong, correctly positioned neck also facilitates proper breathing during intense exertion, which is a critical factor in racing.

Rump and Girth

The rump is the powerhouse of the horse, housing the muscles responsible for propulsion. A well-rounded and strong rump contributes to explosive speed and acceleration off the starting line. Similarly, a deep girth complements lung and heart capacity, supporting endurance during races.

Gaskins and Forearm

These muscular areas are central to driving power and strength in the hind and forelimbs. Well-defined gaskins and forearms suggest robust musculature capable of handling the rigors of high-speed racing while minimizing fatigue.

Angle of Shoulder

The angle of the shoulder is integral to stride efficiency and overall movement. A well-angled shoulder facilitates smooth, powerful strides, enhancing the horse's ability to excel in races. Proper alignment also plays a role in reducing wear and tear on joints.

Characteristics and Significance of Short-Coupled, Long-Legged Racehorses

Racehorses with a short-coupled body and long legs possess unique physical attributes that contribute significantly to their athletic performance. These features are often sought after in the equestrian world, particularly for competitive racing, as they suggest potential for speed, agility, and power.

What Does "Short-Coupled" Mean?

A "short-coupled" horse has a compact body with a shorter distance between its last rib and the point of the hip. This anatomical trait enhances the horse’s ability to flex and engage its back muscles effectively, which is crucial for maintaining balance during high-speed galloping and tight turns. Short-coupled horses often exhibit superior agility and responsiveness, making them particularly adept at navigating challenging racecourses.

The Importance of Long Legs

Long legs in a racehorse are synonymous with stride length and reach. Horses with long, well-proportioned legs can cover more ground with each stride, reducing the number of strides needed to complete a race. This efficiency translates into less energy expenditure and greater endurance over long distances. Additionally, long-legged horses often have an elegant gait and a natural capacity to generate speed, crucial for excelling in competitive racing.

Integration of Traits for Optimal Performance

When short-coupling is combined with long legs, it results in an ideal balance of power and stride efficiency. The compact body aids in agility and quick, precise movements, while the long legs provide the extension and length needed for speed. Together, these features allow the horse to move fluidly, maintain high speeds, and perform explosively off the starting line.

Proportional Considerations

It is important for these traits to be proportionate to the horse’s overall build. For instance, excessively long legs paired with an overly short-coupled body can lead to imbalances, affecting the horse’s coordination and stability. Proper alignment of features ensures that the horse can perform effectively without risking strain or injury.

Competitive Advantages

In the racing world, short-coupled, long-legged horses are often favored for their ability to combine speed and maneuverability. Their conformation supports efficient biomechanics, allowing for swift transitions and sustained acceleration. These attributes not only improve their performance but also reduce the chance of fatigue or injury during rigorous competitions.

Conclusion

Short-coupled, long-legged racehorses reflect an exceptional combination of physical traits that align perfectly with the demands of competitive racing. Their conformation enhances stride efficiency, agility, and overall athleticism, making them invaluable assets to breeders and trainers aiming for peak performance on the racecourse. However, careful evaluation of proportions and structural harmony is essential to ensure that these advantages are fully realized without compromising the horse’s health or durability.

Conclusion

In assessing yearling and weanling racehorses, the attention to conformation is more than a cosmetic evaluation; it is a critical insight into the horse's racing potential and longevity. By carefully considering each of these traits, trainers and breeders can better predict a horse's future performance and mitigate risks associated with poor physical structure.

Observations When Inspecting Yearlings and Weanlings at the Walk and Trot

Key Indicators of Potential in Young Racehorses

When evaluating a yearling or weanling for purchase, observing the horse's movement at the walk and trot can yield invaluable insights into its future racing potential and overall health. These assessments are crucial for identifying conformation, balance, soundness, and temperament.

At the Walk

Observing the horse at the walk provides a baseline understanding of its natural movement and conformation. Key aspects to evaluate include:

·         Stride Length: A long, fluid stride indicates flexibility and efficient movement. Short or uneven strides can suggest limitations in range of motion or potential joint issues.

·         Soundness: Watch carefully for any signs of limping, stiffness, or uneven weight distribution, which could signal underlying injuries or structural problems.

·         Balance: A balanced movement at the walk reflects good conformation and indicates that the horse can distribute its weight effectively, reducing the risk of strain or injury during training.

·         Foot Placement: Observe how the horse places its hooves—ideal positioning should show straight and symmetrical movement without twisting or dragging.

·         Temperament: The horse’s demeanor during walking should be calm and cooperative, yet attentive. A nervous or resistant behavior may highlight potential challenges in training.

At the Trot

The trot provides a more dynamic view of the horse’s movement, allowing for a detailed evaluation of its athletic capabilities and coordination. Important observations include:

·         Rhythm and Cadence: The trot should exhibit a consistent rhythm and even cadence, showing that the horse can maintain balance and coordination under motion.

·         Elasticity: Look for springiness in the movement. Elastic, energetic strides suggest strong musculature and joint integrity, essential for high-speed racing.

·         Engagement of Hindquarters: A horse that drives powerfully from its hindquarters demonstrates a good propulsion mechanism, which is critical for racing speed and acceleration.

·         Tracking Up: Observe if the hind hooves land close to or ahead of the prints left by the forehooves. This indicates an efficient, forward-moving stride.

·         Shoulder Movement: A free and smooth movement of the shoulder at the trot suggests well-angled shoulders and the ability to achieve full range of motion.

·         Structural Symmetry: Ensure there is no asymmetry or irregularity in the horse's movement, as this could point to conformation flaws or lameness.

Conclusion

Inspecting a potential yearling or weanling at the walk and trot is more than a simple observation; it is a comprehensive evaluation of the horse’s physical and behavioral attributes. By paying close attention to stride quality, soundness, balance, and engagement, buyers can make informed decisions that align with their goals for racing success. These observations not only help predict performance but also safeguard against investing in a horse with hidden health or structural issues.

Example Scoring Method for Evaluating Horses at the Walk and Trot

A structured approach to assess movement and physical attributes

Scoring Criteria

This scoring system is based on the attributes outlined for evaluating a horse at the walk and trot. Each criterion is scored on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being excellent and 1 being poor. The final score is the sum of all individual scores, providing a comprehensive evaluation of the horse.

1. Rhythm and Cadence

Score Range: 1–10

Evaluate the horse's consistency of rhythm and evenness of cadence during the trot. A high score indicates a balanced and coordinated movement without disruptions in tempo.

2. Elasticity

Score Range: 1–10

Assess the springiness of the stride. Energetic and elastic movements that show strong musculature and joint integrity should score higher.

3. Engagement of Hindquarters

Score Range: 1–10

Observe the power and propulsion generated from the hindquarters. A horse that drives effectively from the hindquarters will achieve a higher score.

4. Tracking Up

Score Range: 1–10

Scoring is based on how efficiently the hind hooves land close to or ahead of the forehoof prints. A forward-moving, efficient stride earns a higher score.

5. Shoulder Movement

Score Range: 1–10

Evaluate the range and fluidity of shoulder movement. Smooth and free shoulder motion, indicating good angulation, is rewarded with a higher score.

6. Structural Symmetry

Score Range: 1–10

Examine for any asymmetry or irregularity in movement. Horses with symmetry and smooth conformation score higher, while visible flaws or signs of lameness lower the score.

Scoring Example

·         Rhythm and Cadence: 8

·         Elasticity: 7

·         Engagement of Hindquarters: 9

·         Tracking Up: 8

·         Shoulder Movement: 7

·         Structural Symmetry: 10

Total Score: 49/60

Interpretation of Scores

·         50–60: Exceptional potential for racing success; highly recommended.

·         40–49: Above average quality; suitable for competitive racing.

·         30–39: Moderate attributes; may require additional training and care.

·         Below 30: Considerable concerns; not ideal for racing investment.

Conclusion

This scoring method may provide a structured framework for horse evaluation at the walk and trot. By quantifying key attributes, buyers can make more informed decisions and minimize the risk of investing in horses with hidden flaws or health issues.

Copyright (c) take2 may 2025

 



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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Freefall
Date Posted: 10 May 2025 at 7:35pm
Thank you Take2


Posted By: brave_ponies
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2025 at 9:48am
Just bumping this because it's exceptionally good reading on cold winter nights – or any time for that matter.

T2, you write better than most pros, and the info you've packed in is astounding. I've already read them several times, and still getting insights with each run through.

Just for fun, a while back I did your scoring criteria on the ponies – very interesting when one looks at them objectively, surprising results though somewhat depressing (the expensive one scored lower than the bargain buy LOL)


Posted By: GAJ
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2025 at 2:32pm
Just glanced at a few of these posts, Thank you Take2 for sharing them, certainly a good guide and especially the reasoning behind the observations.

Will take time to take it all in when I can sit still for a while!
I am always guided by my eye for balance but so many other factors to be considered.

Thanks BP too for your highlight on the above..


Posted By: Freefall
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2025 at 9:55pm
Please take this with the grain of salt it deserves (Jamie Walter - a mate of mine - who owns Proven Thoroughbreds is spruiking his yearlings).

That said, I found the information very interesting.

https://proventhoroughbreds.com.au/news/what-you-dont-know-about-shamardal-mares/" rel="nofollow - https://proventhoroughbreds.com.au/news/what-you-dont-know-about-shamardal-mares/




Posted By: brave_ponies
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2025 at 10:24am
Very interesting, ff ... love the Shamardals, and even a nuff-nuff like me has noticed that the O'Reilly/Savabeel nick is a standout (I'm learning, go me! Embarrassed)

The more important question, though – did you buy any of them? Promise we won't tell Mrs FF WinkLOL


Posted By: Freefall
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2025 at 11:31am
Not ATM BP.

Last one with Jamie was Unholstered (Pierro out of a Choisir mare) trained by Joe Pride. Everyone was bullish about him as a 2yo. He did a suspensory and didn’t come up again despite the long recovery. Joe recommended moving him on.

Sold online for about $1,500 and is now running in Vic picnic meets. Spelling now - 25 weeks.






Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2025 at 12:31pm
brave ponies anything 1 (savabeel is 1-o) to 13 (O'Reilly is 13b) is one to follow!


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2025 at 2:58pm
Probably why so many of the Grunt progeny are from Savabeel mares.

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It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2025 at 7:06pm
Where to put this?  Ok here will do.

Four of the six winners and placings in the Qld Oaks and Derby today:

Yuo Wahng: by So You Think by High Chaparral
Maison Louis: by Super Seth by Dundeel by High Chaparral
King of Thunder: by Tivaci by High Chaparral
Chase Your Dreams: by Contributor by High Chaparral




Posted By: brave_ponies
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2025 at 9:44pm
Wow! That’s crazy good stats! Thanks SC.

I know a lot of us here are High Chap fans - and clearly good judges Big smile


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2025 at 2:30pm
Longish but interesting

Building Excellence Through Commitment and Care

The preparation of racehorses is an intricate process that requires unwavering patience and an investment of time to develop these majestic animals into champions. Unlike other sports where talent and skill can be honed quickly, equestrian racing demands a methodical approach, where the physical and mental growth of the horse is nurtured with care and precision. Patience and time serve as the foundation for success in this competitive realm, balancing the need for discipline and training with the respect for the horse’s natural development.

The Role of Patience in Racehorse Training

Patience is the cornerstone of racehorse training. It involves understanding the unique nature of each horse, accommodating its quirks and temperament, and allowing it to progress at its own pace. Horses, much like humans, have individual personalities, and imposing a rigid training schedule without regard for their individuality can lead to not only diminished performance but also injury or psychological stress.

Developing Trust and Communication

The bond between a trainer and a racehorse is built on trust. This trust cannot be rushed; it evolves over time as the horse becomes familiar with the trainer’s voice, touch, and commands. A patient trainer invests time in building this rapport, ensuring the horse feels safe and secure in their presence. Trust is vital for the horse to respond effectively in high-pressure situations, such as in the starting gate or during a race.

Physical Conditioning with Care

Racehorses require rigorous physical conditioning, but this must be done progressively. A patient approach recognizes the importance of respecting the horse’s physical limits, gradually increasing workload to build endurance, speed, and strength. Overtraining can lead to fatigue and injuries that may jeopardize the horse’s career. Patience ensures that the horse’s health remains paramount throughout its preparation.

The Significance of Time

Time is an equally critical factor in racehorse preparation. Unlike machinery that can be fine-tuned in a matter of hours, the development of a racehorse spans months, even years. From a foal to the peak of their racing career, racehorses undergo a series of developmental stages that cannot be expedited without risking adverse outcomes.

The Natural Growth Process

A horse’s musculoskeletal system requires sufficient time to mature before it can endure the demands of racing. Training a horse too early can lead to long-term health issues, undermining its potential for a successful career. Trainers must respect the natural timeline of growth, allowing young horses to develop strength and resilience.

Skill Acquisition and Refinement

Racehorses are not born knowing how to race; they must acquire and refine skills such as starting from the gate, pacing, and responding to jockey commands. This learning process takes time and repetition. Forcing a horse to adopt these skills quickly can result in confusion and resistance, whereas a gradual teaching approach ensures mastery and confidence.

Long-Term Success Over Short-Term Gains

In the world of competitive racing, the temptation to push for immediate results is ever-present. However, trainers who prioritize time and patience often produce horses that enjoy longer, more successful careers. By investing in the horse’s comprehensive development, rather than rushing to meet short-term goals, they lay the groundwork for sustainable achievement.

Balancing Patience and Time in Racehorse Preparation

While patience and time are individually significant, their true power lies in their synergy. It is one thing to wait for a horse to develop, but it is another to actively use the time to implement thoughtful strategies that maximize its potential. Trainers must strike a delicate balance between allowing a horse to progress naturally and ensuring that the time invested is productive.

Setting Realistic Goals

Realistic goals are essential to maintaining a balance between patience and time. Trainers must acknowledge the individual capabilities of each horse and tailor training programs accordingly. This not only prevents frustration and setbacks but also builds confidence in the horse as it achieves milestones.

Monitoring Progress

Throughout the preparation process, trainers must diligently monitor the horse’s progress. This involves assessing physical conditioning, behavioral changes, and skill acquisition. By tracking development, trainers can adjust their approach to ensure the horse is moving steadily towards readiness.

Maintaining Discipline

While patience involves flexibility, it also requires discipline. Trainers must remain committed to the long-term vision, resisting the urge to abandon careful preparation for quicker results. Discipline ensures that the time spent on training is meaningful and aligned with the horse’s best interests.

Examples from Champion Racehorses

The importance of patience and time is exemplified by the stories of legendary racehorses. Legends like Secretariat, Sea Biscuit, and Frankel were not overnight successes; their greatness was cultivated through years of dedicated training and care. These champions serve as reminders that excellence in horse racing is achieved through persistence, commitment, and an understanding of the value of time. The great Australian racehorse “
Takeover Target
Sired by  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Swing" rel="nofollow - - Gosford  Racecourse, the listed Ramornie Handicap at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafton,_New_South_Wales" rel="nofollow - - Group 1   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinger_Stakes" rel="nofollow - - Flemington Racecourse  in October of that year. Rogan Josh was purchased for $13,000 by owner Wendy Green, after he didn't reach his reserve price at the yearling sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogan_Josh_%28horse%29#cite_note-2" rel="nofollow - - - [ - -  and began his racing career in Western Australia. His first start was at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunbury,_Western_Australia" rel="nofollow - - Ascot  where his final run for the campaign resulted in a fourth placing.

As a five-year-old, and now trained by Colin Webster, Rogan Josh worked through his classes in Perth recording another four wins before heading to the 1998 Pinjarra Cup. Over 2200 metres Rogan Josh passed the post a nose in front to win the Listed Pinjarra Cup and two weeks later recorded a neck win in the Group 3 Bunbury Cup.

Set for the Perth Carnival he was second in the Group 2  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_B_Cox_Stakes" rel="nofollow - - Perth Cup  at 3200 metres. Colin Webster had a strong belief that Rogan Josh was good enough to run in the Melbourne Cup because of his ability to run 3200 metres. After a brief three start autumn campaign which included a second in the 1999 Bunbury Cup (the race he won the year before), Rogan Josh was then transferred to Bart Cummings and a tilt at the 1999 Melbourne Cup. Cummings liked the fact that Rogan Josh was lightly raced even though he was now a seven-year-old.

When Melbourne Cup markets were first released in August 1999 he was a 250/1 chance. His first start for Bart was in the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auries_Star_Handicap" rel="nofollow - - Flemington  straight in which he finished 7th. His next start was the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feehan_Stakes" rel="nofollow - - JRA Cup . He then showed some form on  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caulfield_Guineas" rel="nofollow - - Darren Gauci  he won the Group 2  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Power_Stakes" rel="nofollow - - Chris Munce , a week later, he led turning for home before being run down finishing fourth behind Sky Heights in the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caulfield_Cup" rel="nofollow - Once Rogan Josh was assured of a start in the Melbourne Cup, Bart Cummings entered him to run in the Group 1  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackinnon_Stakes" rel="nofollow - - John Marshall  was chosen to ride him and Rogan Josh caused an upset by winning the Mackinnon at odds of 16/1 and producing a career high Timeform rating of 115 and equaling the race record (2:00.3) which was set by  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horlicks_%28horse%29" rel="nofollow - - Godolphin  trained Central Park and win the Group 1 Melbourne Cup three days later. The win was Cummings's 11th Melbourne Cup. The Melbourne Cup field included multiple Group 1 winners  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_The_Knot" rel="nofollow - - Brew . The race also included Second Coming who ran 7th however he would go in to run 3rd in the 2000 Melbourne Cup (won by Brew). Rogan Josh only had one more start in Australia: a 3rd in the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandown_Classic" rel="nofollow - - Hong Kong Vase  at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha_Tin_Racecourse" rel="nofollow -  

Conclusion

Patience and time are indispensable in the preparation of racehorses. They form the backbone of a training philosophy that prioritizes the well-being and natural development of the horse while paving the way for competitive success. Trainers who embrace these principles not only enhance the horse’s performance but also contribute to its longevity and overall happiness. In the art and science of racehorse preparation, patience and time are not merely virtues—they are necessities that ensure the triumph of both horse and trainer.” PATIENCE is a virtue, possess it if you can. Seldom in a woman, never in a man." Bart Cummings, and “"Patience is the cheapest thing in racing but most people don't use it," 




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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Sister Dot
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 2:51pm

Pedigree Theories and Selection Techniques

Nick Ratings

(or why nick ratings are the bane of my existence)Some examples of why nick ratings are misleading

It's important that people understand what a nick is, and the difference between a nick and a nick rating. Nicks are a fact, but nick ratings are a statistic, and we all know statistics can be very misleading. Unfortunately, ratings are what people want nowdays because it's easier to read a score and blindly accept it, than to reason out the intricate process of properly mating your mare. 

The word "nick" has become distorted in breeding jargon due to the proliferation of the ratings, so that many people have come to use it as a verb. "What stallions nick with my mare?" or "I want you to nick my mares." When I hear that, my skin crawls. The nick ratings have created this quick and dirty method of matching stallions and mares to the demise of well rounded matings. I don't think this is what the creators of either popular nick rating system intended, but that's what has happened. Nick ratings have done more to take down real mating analysis than anything I've ever seen. 

What is a nick? In my article  http://www.pedigreegoddess.com/PedigreeTheory/Nicks%20or%20Not.htm" rel="nofollow - "Nicks or Not,"  I explain that a nick is a real live genetic term describing a cross of two bloodlines that produces superior results a surprising amount of the time. It's not guaranteed, but it has a serious track record. The A.P. Indy/Mr. Prospector cross is a good modern example. Some of A.P. Indy's most important offspring are the result of this nick including Horse of the Year Mineshaft, and his good sire sons Pulpit and Malibu Moon, all sons of A.P. Indy out of mares sired by Mr. Prospector. That's a nick. It's rare, and it's very specific. 

A.P. Indy on a mare by Mr. Prospector represents a very specific pedigree alignment accounting for 75% of the same pedigree on paper. If the mare is not by Mr. Prospector, we're not talking about the same nick. Bernardini is by A.P. Indy and out of a mare by Quiet American. Quiet American, by Fappiano, by Mr. Prospector, is a male line grandson of Mr. Prospector. It's a similar cross, but technically, it's not the same nick, because Mr. Prospector's influence is diluted 2 generations further back. 

Since we know full siblings in actuality share only about 50% of their genes, theoretically, the chances of genetic similarity based on three-quarter relatives, relatives with 75% similar parentage, are half of that, or 37.5%.  A.P. Indy crossed with a mare by a son of Mr. Prospector reduces the influence of Mr. Prospector by even more, down to 62.5% on paper, or 31.25% in terms closer to probability. The further back the key ancestor is along the mare's male line, it's potential influence decreases dramatically every generation.

That's not to say some bloodlines don't work better together than others, because they certainly appear to, but to attribute the cross to the singular presence of the male line ancestor of the mare crossed with the subject stallion is extremely shaky science. The biggest flaw in the system is that nick ratings don't account for the whole of the sire's pedigree crossing with the whole of the mare's pedigree, including instances of the key successful ancestor in other areas of the mare's pedigree (like the sire of the second dam). 

Likewise, nick ratings don't account for the fact that some sires are more dominant than others, and, and some sires are more like their mothers than their fathers. Northern Dancer was a very dominant sire, and threw a lot of typical sons like Lyphard, Danzig, and The Minstrel, but his best son, Nijinsky II, was a very atypical son. Instead of the small, heavily muscled model, Nijinsky II was a tall, rangy individual built along staying lines. As a stallion, Nijinsky II did not throw a consistent physical type and his offsping varied greatly in aptitudes and ability from sprinters to milers to stayers. In the long term, Nijinsky II does not behave in pedigrees like his sire, Northern Dancer and nick ratings ignore that entirely. 

Mr. Prospector was a great sire of speed and class, but he did not kick out cookie-cutter versions of himself or his sire Raise a Native. In fact, many of his best runners throw back more to their dam's pedigrees in looks and aptitude, in particular, perhaps his greatest sire son, Fappiano, who was very atypical and has created his own dominant and easily recognizable branch of the Mr. Prospector sireline. They are usually tall, long backed horses with a lot of bone. This is the branch that hs produced more of the stayers descending from Mr. Prospector, including Victory Gallop and Unbridled. On the other hand, Forty Niner tended to get smallish, heavily muscled, handsome types like Distorted Humor. The two branches of Mr. Prospector's sireline are very different, and yet nick ratings treat them as interchangeable.

Don't fall into the trap and decide your matings based on a nick rating alone, good or bad. There are too many more important things to evaluate in mating your mare and all must be considered before you make your decision.

Copyright Anne Peters, 2012 

Example 1: Working at Three Chimneys, I took numerous calls from breeders wanting to breed their mare to Sky Mesa. An alarmingly high number of these calls were from breeders owning Storm Cat-line mares, because it was an "A" nick based on the cross of Pulpit and Storm Cat. Of course, the breeders were overlooking the fact that this is exactly the cross that produced Sky Mesa. A cross of Sky Mesa on a daughter of Storm Cat would be inbreeding 3x2 to Storm Cat, and Sky Mesa on a daughter of a son of Storm Cat would be inbreeding 3x3 to Storm Cat. Anyone who has laid eyes on Sky Mesa knows that he's a very large, thickset, heavily muscled horse on legs a little short for his mass. By inbreeding to Storm Cat, a very similarly built horse, you're adding more of the same, and the last thing you'd want to pile on this physical model is more of the same. I discouraged breeders from doing this, but the nick ratings were touting it as a great cross and some didn't want to hear my cautions. By ignoring the rest of the pedigree, the rating was pointing breeders down a potentially disastrous path. Even now, after Sky Mesa is a proven stallion in his own right, the cross of a Storm Cat-line mare with him generates an "A" nick rating, based on the Pulpit/Storm Cat cross. Shouldn't this rating be adjusted to show the results of the Sky Mesa/Storm Cat cross specifically? Those figures would give a clearer picture of the real value of the mating, since Sky Mesa himself has not proven to be a good cross with Storm Cat-line mares, and I think it's obvious why that would be.
Example 2: A client is excited that his mare, hypothetically crossed with a certain successful but extremely crooked son of Storm Cat, generated a nick rating of "A++" with a variant of 31.20 (which apparently is off the charts. I wouldn't know, because I don't pay attention to this sort of, er, stuff). His mare is by Speightstown (Gone West - Silken Cat by Storm Cat). He wanted my opinion.  I explained to him that the mating would also result in inbreeding 2x4 to Storm Cat, a horse who is notorious for passing on offset knees. Since the stallion in question is extremely offset, which is why he is commercial poison, inbreeding to the source of this major fault would not be a good idea. "Oh," he said, "I didn't think about the inbreeding." No, the nick ratings don't remind you to avoid potentially negative inbreeding in their algorithm.
Example 3:  Before he had runners, nick ratings proclaimed that Flower Alley, Distorted Humor's first and best son at stud, would be a good cross (an A nick) with Mr. Prospector-line mares. After all, hadn't Distorted Humor (by Forty Niner by Mr. Prospector) sired a Grade 1 winner from the cross named Flower Alley, out of a mare by Lycius by Mr. Prospector? Distorted Humor also had a Grade 2 winner, Sharp Humor, from another Mr. Prospector-line mare, by Woodman


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“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”


Posted By: Sister Dot
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 2:57pm

2015

A couple of months ago Byron Rogers of Performance Genetics forwarded a link to a recently published study on population genetics. A team of researchers in China and Australia generated statistics that suggest a mother’s influence may actually be more important than a father’s influence when it comes to racing ability. Is this study a fluke of statistical analysis or is there solid science behind it?

http://ads.bloodhorse.com/servlet/click/zone?zid=473&cid=8289&mid=28104&pid=0&sid=8&uuid=16288c4b88fe2922a0a310e40de10747&consent=false&ip=202.7.229.48&default=false&random=14828852&timestamp=20250708225311&test=false&resolution=834x1081&custom2=todays-headlines%2Cthoroughbred-breeding&keywords=byron-rogers%2Cpedigree-analysis%2Canne-peters%2Cdanzig%2Cbruce-lowe%2Chasili%2Cmaternal-lineage%2Celite-sires%2Celite-dams%2Crasmussen-factor&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fbloodhorse.com%2Fhorse-racing%2Farticles%2F106212%2Fmaternal-influences-make-a-difference&redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fasigtipton.com%2F2025%2FKentucky-October-Yearlings%3Futm_source%3DBloodHorse%26utm_medium%3DWebBanners%26utm_campaign%3DFTKOCT%26utm_content%3DClosing" rel="nofollow">Fasig-Tipton

In the paper “Potential role of maternal lineage in the Thoroughbred breeding strategy,” published in Reproduction, Fertility and Development in May 2015, by Xiang Lin, et al., the racing ability of 675 Australian Thoroughbreds was categorized by average earnings per start as an indicator of quality of performance and ranked from highest to lowest. The top 30% of earners were put into the “Elite” group of performers and the remaining 70% into the “Poor” group. 

The runners were divided into four groups based on their parentage: Elite dam vs. Elite sire (EE), Elite dam vs. Poor sire (EP), Poor dam vs. Elite sire (PE), and Poor dam vs. Poor sire (PP).

The results indicated the best runners were from the EE group (Elite dam and sire), while the worst were from the PE group (Poor dam, Elite sire). Surprisingly, the PP group (Poor dam and sire) was not the worst, as one would expect.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/daily" rel="nofollow - SIGN UP FOR Here’s the interesting part: Foals with Elite dams (EE and EP) had statistically similar superior results while foals with Elite sires (EE and PE) did not demonstrate the same similarities, instead, showing an influence related more closely to the performance of their dam. The foals of Poor dams (PE and PP) were poor across the board, even those by Elite sires.

The study concludes “that maternal heritability of athletic performance may be a stronger contributor than paternal heritability to race ability.”

The researchers hypothesize that this is due to mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which is inherited only through the female parent and has a strong influence in the production of ATP, the prime source of energy for any activity, in particular, physical exercise. Sires pass on a lot of important characteristics to their progeny, but they don’t pass on mtDNA as mares do. If superior mtDNA is the thing that makes the critical difference, then we’ve been putting emphasis in the wrong place, relying too heavily on stallions.

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Since Joe Estes’ research in the 1940s and 1950s, studies have proved time and again that the best racemares make the best broodmares, but up until now it hasn’t been demonstrated that the mare’s input may actually be more important than that of the sire’s. Good racemares are almost always bred to the best stallions available, so testing them against members of the “poor” community hasn’t been something that most breeders would attempt, which makes these results especially intriguing.

Theories have tried to prove the greater importance of good mares with mixed success. Geneticists have already discounted the so-called “X Factor” theory, which proposed that weaving their way down the breed were certain x-chromosomes that were deemed responsible for producing larger-than-average hearts, which, in turn, were presumed to translate into greatness. While several genes are related to heart size, researchers mapping the equine genome didn’t find any of them on the x-chromosome. This doesn’t dismiss the idea that certain females could pass on certain superior traits, only that the X Factor, as it relates to heart size, wasn’t on the x-chromosome.

The so-called “Rasmussen Factor” is a theory focused on inbreeding to superior females. Inbreeding to any superior individual sounds like a good idea, but often the parents are simply not good enough to pull it off or the key ancestors are so distant that their influence is too diluted to be effective. There are many clever examples of the Rasmussen Factor, but it hasn’t proved itself under statistical scrutiny.

Bruce Lowe’s numbered female families are based on the direct tail-female path of the mtDNA, and his Family 1 remains the most prominent in producing top runners, for some reason, even today. Is it due to mtDNA? Some of his ideas seemed far-fetched, but maybe not so much now.

This new study on maternal influence could help explain why so few stallions succeed in the highly competitive stallion market, or, rather, why so many apparently well-qualified stallion prospects prove mediocre or fail altogether.

It could also help us understand why the stallions we have valued as good or great can sire stakes winners at a rate as low as 5% of their foals, or a few rare ones, such as Danzig, as high as 19%. Compare this to a remarkable broodmare such as Juddmonte Farms’ Hasili, who produced 70% stakes winners to foals.



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“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”


Posted By: Freefall
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 3:11pm
Thanks Sister Dot. Great reads.


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 3:36pm
Hasili a deadset fav of mine

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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 3:40pm
Rasmussen is fine in theory however successfully breeding back to superior females is essentially reliant on the presence of superior males and ok females in the pedigree also, particularly given those blue hen females may constitute only a relatively small percentage of a particular horse's overall profile.


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 4:32pm

The world of Thoroughbred racing is as much about legacy as it is about the thrill of the finish line. A persistent question among breeders, owners, and enthusiasts is whether the elite racemares—those who shone  on the track—inevitably translate their greatness into the breeding shed by producing Group 1 (G1) performers of equal or superior talent. While there is an intuitive appeal to the idea, the reality is far more nuanced. Exceptional racemares sometimes do produce top-class offspring, but just as often, their racing brilliance does not reproduce itself in the next generation. Conversely, some modest racemares—some even with undistinguished or unremarkable racing records—have produced extraordinary progeny.

This phenomenon highlights the complexity of genetics, the influence of the chosen stallion, management practices, and a measure of luck. Here’s a look at both sides with notable examples.

·         Urban Sea: Winner of the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (G1), she is perhaps the most famous recent example. Urban Sea produced Galileo (multiple G1 winner, champion sire) and Sea The Stars (Europe’s Horse of the Year, six consecutive G1 wins).

·         Miesque: A champion miler and multiple G1 winner, Miesque became the dam of Kingmambo (classic winner and top sire) and East of the Moon (dual French classic winner).

·         Zarkava: Undefeated on the track and winner of the Arc, her broodmare record is solid, though not matching her own heights, but she produced G1-placed Zarkandar.

·         Kind: She won at Listed level, not a superstar racemare, but as the dam of Frankel (undefeated champion, now a leading sire), her legacy is extraordinary.

Top Racemares Whose Progeny Did Not Match Their Own Racing Prowess

·         Goldikova: The legendary miler and three-time Breeders’ Cup Mile winner has, so far, not produced anything close to her own ability in her progeny.

·         Tepin: The champion turf mare and dual Breeders’ Cup winner has yet to see her offspring reach G1-winning heights.

·         Ouija Board: A brilliant racemare, winner of multiple G1s across the globe, and while she is the dam of Australia (Epsom Derby winner), most of her other progeny have not reached the same level.

·         Winx: The Australian legend, winner of 33 consecutive races including 25 G1s, only recently began her broodmare career, with her first foals yet to race.

·         Black Caviar: Another Aussie legend, with 25 consecutive wins, and 7 live foals by Written Tycoon (1-1w) , I Am Invincible (2-2w) , More Than Ready (1-0w) Snitzel (1-0w) Sebring (1-0w) Exceed And excel (1-0w), so had every chance

·         Makybe Diva. With # Melb Cups and Cox Plate to boot, another Aussie equine heroine, who failed at stud despite having an acceptable w/r ratio

Great Broodies from more humble beginnings

·         Hasili: Won a single race, at Listed level, but became one of the greatest broodmares, producing five G1 winners including Banks Hill, Intercontinental, Heat Haze, and Champs Elysees. Her sons and daughters have also bred on.

·         Better Than Honour: While a G2 winner herself, her impact as a broodmare is legendary, producing Belmont Stakes winners Jazil and Rags to Riches.

While genetics naturally play a central role, several key factors help to explain why even the greatest racemares do not always reproduce their brilliance in the breeding barn:

·         Stallion Compatibility: The match between mare and stallion is crucial; even a top mare might not “nick” well with a particular stallion. many times, the “nick is only considered Sire x BM sire, when in fact a nick can be anywhere in a pedigree, IMO up to 5 -6 -7 generations, too often “Fashion” is chosen over Pedigree, when in fact, Pedigree always tells in the end

·         Physical and Genetic Variables: Some traits that make a mare a great racer may not be easily inherited,  or may require a complementary gene from the stallion.

·         Management and Opportunity: The care, training, and opportunities given to the offspring play a significant role in their eventual success.

·         Luck: The unpredictable nature of genetics and environment means that even the most carefully planned matings can produce average performers—or champions from humble mares. Of all the above. LUCK is probably the biggest leveler

In summary, while many top racemares have excelled as broodmares, the relationship is not guaranteed. Outstanding examples like Urban Sea and Miesque show what is possible, but equally, some of the most legendary names have not replicated their track success in the breeding shed. Conversely, mares with modest or even disappointing racing careers have sometimes produced multiple champions. The magic of Thoroughbred breeding remains a blend of science, art, and serendipity, ensuring that the next champion can come from almost anywhere.

Copyright © take2  july 2025



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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au


Posted By: horlicks
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 4:51pm
Delacroix won the Sussex Stakes last Saturday giving Tepin a group 1 winner


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Rasmussen is fine in theory however successfully breeding back to superior females is essentially reliant on the presence of superior males and ok females in the pedigree also, particularly given those blue hen females may constitute only a relatively small percentage of a particular horse's overall profile.

What's sometimes missed is that Rasmussen isn't just about breeding back to superior females but as I read it rather in-breeding (ie duplicating) those mares in subsequent progeny.  So more than a few superior mares whose influences haven't been carried forward aren't relevant because they haven't been duplicated in pedigrees.

And sort of forgetting Rasmussen for a moment, but sticking with superior females, it's would appear logical to plan matings around successful broodmares rather than successful racemares, even if they're a number of generations back though not too remote to be meaningful.

All just scratching the surface in what's a very inexact science.


Posted By: Plastic letters
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 7:53pm
Thanks sister dot and this is my big belief and takeaway
A team of researchers in China and Australia generated statistics that suggest a mother’s influence may actually be more important than a father’s influence when it comes to racing ability. 



Posted By: Shammy Davis
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2025 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Rasmussen is fine in theory however successfully breeding back to superior females is essentially reliant on the presence of superior males and ok females in the pedigree also, particularly given those blue hen females may constitute only a relatively small percentage of a particular horse's overall profile.

What's sometimes missed is that Rasmussen isn't just about breeding back to superior females but as I read it rather in-breeding (ie duplicating) those mares in subsequent progeny.  So more than a few superior mares whose influences haven't been carried forward aren't relevant because they haven't been duplicated in pedigrees.

And sort of forgetting Rasmussen for a moment, but sticking with superior females, it's would appear logical to plan matings around successful broodmares rather than successful racemares, even if they're a number of generations back though not too remote to be meaningful.

All just scratching the surface in what's a very inexact science.
Absolutely. 


Posted By: Shammy Davis
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2025 at 1:29am
A successful breeder has to read between the lines of a pedigree. Take for instance BOLD RULER sire of SECRETARIAT.  

Bold Ruler is inbred 5x5 to 1911 English champion sire Sundridge. He is a full brother to stakes winner Nasco and the good steeplechaser Independence. Bold Ruler's half sister Foolish One (by Tom Fool) is the second dam of 1982 St. Leger Stakes (ENG-G1) winner Touching Wood and multiple South African Group 1 winner Fools Holme. Another half sister, Hill Rose (by Rosemont), produced 1971 Widener Handicap winner True North.

Bold Ruler's dam Miss Disco was a good stakes winner over sprint distances and is a full sister to 1949 Metropolitan Handicap winner Loser Weeper and 1950 Oaklawn Handicap winner Thwarted. She was produced from juvenile stakes winner Outdone (by Pompey), a full sister to multiple stakes winner Clean Out and a half sister to Charwoman (by Discovery), dam of 1954 New Orleans Handicap winner Grover B. and multiple Canadian stakes winner Sword Woman (both by Blue Swords). The next dam in the tail-female line, Sweep Out (by Sweep On), is a multiple stakes winner out of Dugout, by Under Fire. 

SECRETARIAT'S broodmare sire, PRINCEQUILLO, is characterized less on pedigree and more on talent.  A well-balanced bay horse of the medium-distance type, Princequillo was rather plain and a little on the small side (about 15.3 hands) but was sound and durable with good substance for his size. He was a good mover and had a masculine presence but also had a calm disposition. He had an attractive head with a large, intelligent eye.

According to records kept by The Jockey Club, Princequillo sired 332 winners (68.7%) and 65 stakes winners (13.5%) from 483 named foals. He was noted as a source of stamina and soundness and also tended to pass on a sensible temperament, important factors in the successful nick of his daughters and granddaughters with Nasrullah and his sons. Princequillo is an Intermediate/Solid chef-de-race in the Roman-Miller dosage system. Somethingroyal, SECRETARIAT'S broodmare was an unproven racemare.

But just characterizing the breeding shed or solely on performance isn't good enough anymore. Racemare pedigrees must have proven talent throughout their ancestry.  Knowing when to stop supportive inbreeding is more important than encouraging it. Lastly, the environmental background of both mates says much about potential talent. A good trainer and conditioner opens breeding shed doors while a marginal or bad trainer closes them. 


Posted By: Hello Sunshine
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2025 at 11:24am
Trainers can make and break sire lines.
Marketing and fashion also.
Case book, St Jean.

ps I like your new horse second chance. Lots of great WA breeding and racing in the dam line.
And i think Lindsey Smith trained dam.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2025 at 11:39am
Thank you Sunshine.


Posted By: Shammy Davis
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2025 at 12:27pm
Some years back I read a book titled "The Science of Bloodstock Breeding" by B. Vijay. Copyrighted in 1991 it was a very thoughtful treatise on the entire field of bloodstock breeding. A chemical engineer by trade, Vijay, a resident of Madras, India was enthralled with the Thoroughbred since childhood and as I recall he included not only valid discussions leading to compatible thus successful breeding of bloodstock but also analytical and statistical data to assist in forming conclusions. If anything, it was a thought provoking book, that still led me to believe that even with a heavy amount of luck in a breeders favor, the chances of identifying a successful racing match was questionable. It is no wonder that at the historic Keenland Racecourse (KY) there is no Barn #13 and avoidance of black cats is the rule. Lord forbid the reins hit the ground in the saddling area as that is the real kiss of death.  I once heard an owner lamenting he was having a bad day at his business and then a friend of his reminded him it could be worse as the day wasn't over and he owned a couple of horses entered in races that day. The horse teaches us a great deal, but sadly very little of it has to do with horses. I guess there is profit in humility.


Posted By: Sister Dot
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2026 at 9:17am
Ken Beer Mate Your Mare 

We’ve just finished analysing 552,130 horses born between 2010 and 2020 — and the findings are going to change how you value broodmares.



For decades, the market has treated any “winning dam” as a premium asset. But when you strip away assumptions and look at the actual outcomes, the truth is unmistakable:

Stakes-winning dams: 7.93% stakes-winner rate

Non-stakes winning dams: 3.62%

Dams that never won: 3.17%



That tiny difference between a non-stakes winner and a mare that never won?

Just +0.45 percentage points. Almost no uplift at all.



Meanwhile, the uplift delivered by stakes-winning dams is +4.76 percentage points — more than 10× the value of a non-stakes win.

And the earnings follow the same pattern. In Australia, offspring from stakes-winning dams earn $69,766 more, on average, than those from non-stakes dams.

Most breeders are still paying premiums for mares who won a few races but never won at stakes level. The data shows this doesn’t hold up.



In the first article of our new four-part series, we break down:

The real uplift delivered by stake-winning dams

Global patterns across major jurisdictions

How the market is mispricing dam quality

The $70,000 earnings gap

And how this affects buying, breeding, and portfolio decisions



The Dam Quality Revolution: Part 1 — The 10x Rule

Read the full article →



This sets the foundation for what’s coming next:

Part 2: Why G2/G3 dams offer the best ROI in the entire market

Part 3: Why males benefit more from stakes dams than females

Part 4: The stallions that produce 40% stakes winners with the right mares




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“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”


Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2026 at 8:28pm
Where can we read the full article above    OR    is the above purely advertorial



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