What is your interpretation of a B/C Grader?

Also, I left them out because the list would be a hell of a lot but the imports too from Europe who have won G1s at 1600m+ in Australia. Some of them were not good in Europe and sent to Australia and had G1 success....or G2 G3 or Listed (Stakes) success.

Name them. 

If not which one are the B and C graders ? 

Now as you know...there was a time in Australian racing that it was strong depthwise at 1600m+ will we ever see those rimes again Djebel? If so then the industry needs an all in effort. Change in mindset away from the obsession from speed if you know what I mean. 

You contradict yourself with cash grab comment.

Are you going to tell us Spanish Mission was a B grader being beaten a lip by Stradivarius ?  

Why wouldn't owners take the cash of Aussie owners rather than racing for ribbons ?

Hopefully Jamal will tell us why our middle distance and staying types are not as good as those from Europe.

I got that one wrong. 

Obviously he has done a good enough job with Alegron and Willowy but neither are likely to be top class stayers. They are too slow.

Vianello on the other hand has speed and as such she will not be asked to stay despite that being her best and most likely successful trait. 

They've finally got a room 

Go for it fellas. We'll sit back with the popcorn. 

Oops sorry that was meant to be a laughy emoji, not that one.

Leave my name out of this thread thanks !  

Sorry Jamal but I think it's about time you backed up one of your many ludicrous statements with some sort of substance. You haven't explained anything. Kindly categorise the aformementioned list that you declared to be full of B & C graders so we can understand your line of thinking. I'm happy to read. Go ahead. 

What if you include imports? Zaaki was. I’m sure there are plenty of others, they’ve won so much.

Happy for you to include any horse you can think of. Unfortunately Jamal can not think of any. 

For colts or geldings 3yo and older, there are 8 G1 open races at a mile or greater in the UK, 10 G1 races  of the same type in France and 3 in Ireland.

Name one that did? B grader who wins G1 here then returns to G1 glory back home.

Zaaki

Adelaide

Knight's Order

State Of Rest

Zaaki was always considered high class by his stable they just could not get the best out of him They felt high enough about him to run him in Hong Kong. He came to Australia with a steadily climbing official handicap mark of 112 and Racing Post mark of 117. He could arguably be called a B grader but a b grader improving and getting his act together.

Adelaide was clearly high class before coming to Australia. Aiden O'brien obviously has a plethora of highclass 3yos that he needs to split up and this one was chosen to plunder the US and Australian riches. If we are going to say a group 1 winner is a B grader we really are plucking at straws. 

Knight's Order/Knight's Errant, sure he could be considered a B grader but that is like saying Think It Over was a B grader. He was, like Think It Over and Zaaki going through his grades, they always held him in high regard. He'd won 4 from 9 in the UK and was on an upward spiral.

State Of Rest started 11/2 in the Futurity Trophy previously known as the Racing Post Trophy the final group 1 of the UK 2yo season being beaten out of site on a heavy surface. He was another on an upward spiral on the official handicaps coming out here on a climbing 110 mark.

Zaaki is the only one fully exposed before coming out here and he was always held in high regard who Sir Michael simply could not get the best out of. His original trainer had him running in 2yo group races as a maiden. He retired from his 2yo season rated 101 which is listed level indicating what connections thought of him. 

It took Think It Over 18 starts to win at group level down here before flurishing and going on with it, Zaaki has clearly loved whatever Annabel is doing with him and is thriving down here.

I would have loved to have seen Avilius, Zaaki and or Hartnell return to their birth place to see how they had improved. These 2 seemed to go to a whole new level when they came down here. Bone of them though could really be consided B graders. Not really. 

Some confusion. See link below cheers. I said Winx and SYT the two best middle distance horses in Australian racing of the last 20 yrs and it would be good to see Winx go to So You Think. Cheers

https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/topic68648_post1841714.html#1841714" rel="nofollow - https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/topic68648_post1841714.html#1841714

Djebel might think so. 

He could be ranked 200 and would still be better than a B grader.

Just looking at the Racing Post Ratings ranking which are easy to access Joan Of Arc 114 is ranked 49th in the 3yo ranks let alone the open aged ranks and she is a Group 1 winning 3yo.

Earlswood who is now in Australia should have finished 2nd in the Irish Derby and is a genuine established A grader over there is ranked 91 on 110 in the 3yo ranks for last season.

State Of Rest was ranked 134 on a rating of 108.

The leader of the 3yo pack was Adayar on 129.

Jamal,

That thread you linked to is the one I got your take on this. You posted the above link after I made my post because you realised your memory is very short and you are fickle.

Two posts before the one you did after being 'found out', you clearly state that SYT and VE are the 2 best middle distance horses in Australia over last 25 years and they should have been mated together.

You must be watching a lot of scomo, thinking that if you deny having said something people will overlook your mistakes.

An even better advertisement for our horses would be horses who are beaten over here in a group race and then go back home and win G1's.

Highland Reel-2nd in Cox Plate to Winx and then wins G1 in HK, Gi in Ascot, Santa Anita, Epsom, Ascot and then Sha Tin again.

Benbatl won 4 group 2 races after running well behind Winx, he was injured quite often.

Addeybb won the Champion Stakes between his Queen Elizabeth victories.

Cross Counter won The Dubai Gold Cup before running close up placings behind Stradivarius and subsequently losing all form. 

The idea of Earlswood being "an established A Grader" shows how wildly different the definition of these things can be to anyone.

Earlswood had only start beyond Group 3 level, and got toweled up beaten 9L in the Irish Derby (running 3 would still have seen him beat 7).

That is about as far form an established A-grader as you can get. Closest example I can see in our 3yos (looking quickly) would be calling Character an established A-grader.

Mugatoo is another that can be added to the list of Avilius, Zaaki and Hartnell.  

Djebel's kine of thinking/interpretation of horses isnt very good as he has shown on quite a few occasions. But yes I agree with you, Zaaki wasn't a good horse in Europe. Good to see you see it exactly how it is 

You are nothing but a troll. 

Just for clarity. 

"He came to Australia with a steadily climbing official handicap mark of 112"

Zaaki had an official rating of 112 on 1/6/2019, it remained either that or 113 for the next 10 starts. Including his HK run where he was sent out over 100/1.

He'd capped out as a being a competitive/winning chance in the right Group 3 over there.

And as I also said, the stable always believed he was high class but could not, for whatever reason, get it out of him on the track.

He has clearly thrived down here and loved it and is racing genuinely. 

I know nothing of the sort.

You give weight to these official ratings, which is back to my point... your definition of A graders is very different to many peoples (mine included).

Maxmimal - Listed placed and a G1 fourth... hard to get to A grade off that.

Numerian a listed winner. The eight runs prior to coming out was winless running in Group 3 races or lower. I don't think there can be any suggestion he was A grade over there, doubt B grade either.

The problem with the majority of people they think group 2 and 3 is low level racing.

Think It Over was being beaten in BM88 races at start 16.

If he is a B grader I am a monkeys uncle. 

"And as you will well know, any horse rating 112 in fact over 100 is not considered a B grader."

There are about 350 horses in the UK with an official rating 101 or higher. All A-graders it seems.....

That is 350 out of 13000 runners with an official rating. So that is the top 3% if we include jumpers as part of the available flat population, which we shouldn't.

So what percentage of horses rate above 108 ?

I am more than happy for you to prove me wrong.

Let's assume you and Jamal are correct and B and C graders are coming down here and plundering our group 1 races.

Why is this so ?

Why are our horses not up to the task ?

Do you know my thoughts on this situation ? 

Everyone knows your thoughts on the cause...

To the question that started this thread... it is pointless. We are arguing opinions that I doubt will ever change. I consider an A-grade horse to be a horse that would be considered a genuine winning chance when it turns up in Group 1 races.

You consider an A grade horse to be listed performed or better. Hence any foreign trained horse that wins a Group 1 down here will be an A-grader as it wouldn't have gotten a a start otherwise.

Why is it a horses like State of Rest and Adelaide can win the Cox Plate? There is a lack of depth in our middle distance and staying horses so we have few flag bearers, some of which probably don't make the race anyway.

You harp on about training methods, but the reality is we do breed sprinter milers. If we had this well of staying talents they would be showing up somewhere, if only mid-week races, but they don't because we don't breed or focus on them.

It leaves a very shallow top of the pool, which means we have to wait multiple seasons for something that would be competitive with the top international horses, and often don't have much to compete with the mid-tier runners they bring out.

The Cox Plate particularly favours Europeans with the long sprint sustained sprint that they are used to running in, compared to the sit and sprint most of our WFA races to be, and that is near impossible to change domestically as any horse would be giving away so much in the lead up races settling back and not getting into it, that it won't happen.

Let's be honest many of the group 1 races down here would not be group races up North let alone group 1. Knight's Order winning a Sydney Cup would not be group 1 up North would it. 

We have group 1 races here that are won by Australian horses that are not really group 1 standard here.

We have seen group 1 winners from the North win group 1s down here with their European trainer and then falter when given to Waller or McEvoy.

Fifty Stars was bread to stay every yard of 4000m yet never once saw 2400m. He is now a National Hunt stallion in Ireland.

We breed some stayers. Much less that Europeans.

That means of the staying population, the Europeans will have more elite horses, more "A Graders" etc on natural dispostion alone than Australia. They will also like be trained for a middle distance career... so they have a big pool of horses, targeted at them.... hence they will overwhelmingly be better than what we have. And they are.

Dalasan if he was going to be so great over 2400m would be a lot better over 2000m than he is, and iust isn't bred to be some great stayer. His female pedigree is not stamina orientated in anyway, look at the males closest up: El Prado, Lear Fan, Honour and Glory, Fappiano.... all Milers.

There are 100s of them that are wasted or take forever to get to a trip.

And what about the Oaks horses I mentioned ?

Exactly. There is heaps of Zaaki's in Europe who aren't good enough in Europe. But Djebel isn't a good judge of horses and thinks every horse is an A Grader.

Fifty Stars hahahahahaha gee wizz time to let go of that galloper. 

I assume Knight's Order is an A Grader too? The line has to be drawn somewhere and you know that

Nope, sorry - calling me a troll is an easy way out. I've explained it many times in other threads. You clearly don't see the dialogue or do see it and don't read it. 

The onus is on you to finally accept that Australian racing has been poor for at least 12 to 13 years at 1600m,+....no depth. When you were nice to me you actually told me that Winx raced against trees.....remember that?

Trainers is one aspect yes but its the whole product. Breeding etc. Racing program. Not a lot of staying races around. 

Australia does breed stayers just not a lot that are good. Again probably trainers are to do with it. But Australian racing bread and butter is now speed.

Time Australian racing became competitive again at 1600m+

The Oaks winners... the great staying test that is the ATC Oaks???

Hungry Heart... Frankel predominantly a miler, in performance, Pivotal is the Dam Sire which doesn't suggest stayer. Won an oaks where they walked and sprinted home a last 600m similar to the 1200m races on the day. There was no evidence of her being some blessed stayer crying out for a trip.

Colette is by Hallowed Crown who wanted no more than a mile, and similar story. Won a walking race that sprinted home similar to the 1200s on the day, though did suggest she had a bit of staying ability in her lead ups.

The Japanese are very very good but they are yet to break through in Europe in the staying sphere. They have done well in Dubai on the firmer surface.

Interestingly they have built their stamina base not on stamina but on high class milers and middle distances racers. 

Deep Impact a case in point. By a none stamina line in Sunday Silence/Halo from a high grade family of milers and middle distance horses. 

The Japanese despite having less beeding mares are outstanding over all distance ranges.