Phoenix Thoroughbreds-gone!
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URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=64832
Printed Date: 19 Apr 2024 at 11:08pm
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Topic: Phoenix Thoroughbreds-gone!
Posted By: monty1
Subject: Phoenix Thoroughbreds-gone!
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 10:45am
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https://www.racingpost.com/news/phoenix-thoroughbreds-founder-accused-of-stealing-eur100m-from-global-ponzi-scam/410788" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingpost.com/news/phoenix-thoroughbreds-founder-accused-of-stealing-eur100m-from-global-ponzi-scam/410788 |
Replies:
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 12:06pm
Noticed a tweet on Saturday that mentioned the impending drama around Phoenix, and also mentioned in this tweet were rumblings of another global thoroughbred entity about to hit the headlines....
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monty1 wrote:Posted By: SkyDancer
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 12:07pm
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Phoenix Thoroughbreds founder Amer Abdulaziz Salman has been named as a key figure in a major money-laundering operation for an international cryptocurrency fraud from which he allegedly stole €100 million before launching his global racehorse ownership enterprise, a US court heard this month. The stunning claim came during the testimony of Konstantin Ignatov, the co-founder of fake cryptocurrency OneCoin, as part of the trial of US lawyer Mark Scott, who on Thursday was found guilty of fraud and laundering $400m in illegal funds for the OneCoin founders. The Racing Post has been unable to verify the allegation, made under oath in a New York court, and multiple attempts to contact Abdulaziz for comment over the weekend have been unsuccessful. Abdulaziz's bloodstock agent, Dermot Farrington, is understood to have quit his role after becoming aware of the accusation. Dubai-based Abdulaziz, 56, launched Phoenix Thoroughbreds in 2017 as the “world’s first regulated thoroughbred fund” and has since become one of the most high-profile figures in international racing and bloodstock, often flexing the significant financial muscle of his fund at the sales and through private purchases. Ignatov, who pleaded guilty this month to money-laundering and fraud as part of the estimated $4 billion scam, has been cooperating with US prosecutors and alleged Abdulaziz was one of the operation’s web of money-cleaners under the guidance of Gilbert Armenta, boyfriend of OneCoin’s other co-founder Dr Ruja Ignatova. Asked in court who Armenta worked with, Ignatov said: “Mark Scott, Amer Abdulaziz and Alex Ortega.” Ignatov went on to claim Abdulaziz stole from the scam, which involved the creation of a fake cryptocurrency that investigators say in fact amounted to a Ponzi scheme. He said: “Amer Abdulaziz, after he stole €100m from OneCoin, he started buying racehorses for, like, €25m. [He was] one of the main money-launderers for Ruja.” Ignatov added the theft was not reported as “the money came from a criminal activity”, while Abdulaziz is allegedly named in emails between Ruja Ignatova and her co-conspirators. The Racing Post has also seen a draft transcript of the September 2018 interview between Mark Scott and FBI agents after he was arrested on suspicion of money-laundering, in which he claimed a Dubai-based investment fund named Phoenix was sent $190m. In an interview earlier this year, Abdulaziz said he created Phoenix as an equine investment fund geared towards providing investors with a "sustainable return realised through acquisition and breeding of top-quality thoroughbreds" and claimed to have raised $250m. However, Abdulaziz has never disclosed who his investors are – citing a desire to protect his client base – other than to say they are “non-racing people”. He has talked about his plan to launch a second, larger fund having used the first fund as a promotional tool. Having initially had horses solely with former Newmarket trainer Jeremy Noseda, Phoenix has since mushroomed to having an estimated 300 horses under its banner, including stallions and broodmares, with 27 trainers on five continents, according to its website. However, there have been controversies during Phoenix’s time with Noseda. Kerri Radcliffe, Abdulaziz's first bloodstock agent, was fired by him last year and he has since relied on Farrington, the son-in-law of Advertise’s trainer Martyn Meade, for his buying. Phoenix and Abdulaziz have enjoyed significant success on the racecourse worldwide including Grade/Group 1 wins in the US and Australia, alongside the Royal Ascot victories of Signora Cabello in the 2018 Queen Mary Stakes and Advertise in this year’s Commonwealth Cup, a race in which Forever In Dreams finished second for Phoenix Ladies, a female-only arm of the Phoenix brand created in late 2018 with the aim of increasing the participation of women in racing in the UAE. The US Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York, which prosecuted Mark Scott, declined to comment on Sunday when asked if Abdulaziz was a person of interest, while the FBI said it “neither confirms nor denies” having an interest in the Phoenix founder. Comment has been sought from law enforcement agencies in the UK. |
Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 6:43pm
| kissen blow ins. This group, Damien Flower, money laundering, drugs , this is what ruins the integrity of racing, I wonder what major international player will be next to be corrupt. China Horse Club? |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 6:46pm
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On what basis do you make that claim Ian? There appears no real comparison between the principles.
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Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 10:21pm
| And what’s going on in our backyard at Wangaratta? Hmm |
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2019 at 9:55am
| There was an application last month to wind up the fund behind Phoenix last month in Luxembourg, there is a new application to wind them up as we speak. |
Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2019 at 5:24pm
| second Chance I love the industry but it seems that new players come in a spend a fortune and then eventually get caught out like the above mentioned. There are and always will be a lot of sharks in this industry, that is the most annoying part of it all. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2019 at 5:34pm
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Agree entirely ianb, though from what I read the China Horse Club appears to be on the up and up. Watch this space for my apology should that not prove to be the case.
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Posted By: International
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 5:45am
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This is the most detailed article on the latest state of affairs.
https://www.racingpost.com/news/phoenix/revealed-phoenix-racing-fund-was-never-regulated-and-is-now-in-liquidation/411002" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingpost.com/news/phoenix/revealed-phoenix-racing-fund-was-never-regulated-and-is-now-in-liquidation/411002 |
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 7:37am
| Surely, for true transparency and good governance we now need a regulatory body to scrutinise all the 'foreign' thoroughbred investors that have arrived from 'nowhere' and with gazillions! Or, is it, they are too frightened as to what might surface? |
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 7:39am
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Does it also mean that their horses are stood down immediately pending further investigation and information? |
Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 10:25am
| I would be very careful of were the money is coming from ; with these new Chinese stud/Sydndicats popping up in our racing at the moment? |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 2:22pm
Just for info, though not related to Phoenix, here is some info about those associated with the China Horse Club: "The China Horse Club continues to be supported by the CHC International Advisory Council (IAC). The IAC has enjoyed, or currently enjoys, the patronage and support of individuals of the calibre of Professor Dr. Joseph Deiss (former President of the Swiss Confederation and President of the 65th Session of the United Nations General Assembly); the Honourable John Warren (Bloodstock Advisor for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II); Mr Andreas Jacobs (Chairman of Investment Firm Jacobs Holdings AG, Chairman of INSEAD and successful entrepreneur); Mr Wayne Wang (Chairman, CEO and Founder of CDP Group, Limited); Sir Owen Glenn (New Zealand philanthropist and leading businessman); Mr John Magnier (owner of thoroughbred industry shaper Coolmore and leading businessman); Mr Poh Choon Ann (Group Chairman and CEO of Poh Tiong Choon Logistics Group); Dato Tan Chin Nam (Founder of IGB Corporation and former leading owner) and Ar. Teo Ah Khing (Chairman and Founder of TAK Group and CHC).
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Posted By: Batman
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2019 at 12:42pm
Sorry to nit pick but Dato Tan Chin Nam passed away more than a year ago ------------- Gambling has brought our family closer together. We had to move to a smaller house. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2019 at 12:49pm
| Sorry to nit pick, however "....The IAC has enjoyed, or currently enjoys, the patronage and support of individuals of the calibre of... Dato Tan Chin Nam". |
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2019 at 3:12pm
Good you pointed that out Batman, as I thought I must have been suffering Oldtimers  I was sure I had heard Dato had passed away ages ago, but when it was posted and seemed to be pretty official posting, I thought I had lost me marbles.  ------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2019 at 3:59pm
| Please re-read the article. No-where does it suggest that Dato is still with us. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 6:10pm
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It's interesting that more than a couple here are eager to point the finger at allegedly shonky Asian and middle-eastern operators in Australia.Without supporting evidence. However thus far the exposed shonks in Oz are almost exclusively caucasians and/or home-breds, such as Vlahos, Flower, another in WA, and one other with US links. So imo it's clearly time to cease the racially or ethnically profiled innuendo.
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Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 6:21pm
| much easier to bust the locals locally |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 6:33pm
| So TJ, you're suggesting... |
Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 8:34pm
| Who’s next? |
Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 9:41pm
Who's on first. 
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Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2019 at 12:07am
Gone through to the keeper .....after all its been a long time. 
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Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 6:49pm
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Phoenix Thoroughbreds vice president Tom Ludt has become the latest high-profile racing professional to cut ties with the troubled organization, citing concerns over allegations that money from a fake cryptocurrency revealed to be a global Ponzi scheme may have been invested in the self-styled "world's first regulated Thoroughbred fund." Ludt, a former Breeders' Cup chairman who oversaw the day-to-day running of Phoenix Thoroughbreds since joining the big-spending outfit in December 2017, said he accepted a termination agreement after confronting founder Amer Abdulaziz Salman over claims he was linked to the fraudulent cryptocurrency OneCoin, allegations that emerged in a New York court last year. Abdulaziz denies the allegations, which first came to widespread public attention in November when they were reported in the Racing Post. They concern stunning claims made during the New York trial of Mark Scott, a former lawyer, that Abdulaziz was involved in handling proceeds from OneCoin, which is estimated to have scammed $4 billion out of victims who believed they were investing in a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin but had actually been duped into joining a sophisticated pyramid scheme. Court testimony alleged Abdulaziz and his Phoenix Fund Investments, the Dubai-registered parent company of Phoenix Thoroughbreds, were a key component of the network washing money for those behind the fraudulent scheme, which has been described as one of the biggest financial scams ever perpetrated. Following the publication of these explosive allegationswhich are categorically denied by PhoenixLudt sought further assurances from his then-employer that the claims were without foundation. According to Ludt, Abdulaziz denied any involvement in OneCoin but allegedly admitted that Scott, who faces up to 50 years in prison for his role in the scandal, put money into Phoenix via a series of investment vehicles called the Fenero Funds. These funds were used to launder $400 million in OneCoin proceeds. Ludt, speaking for the first time since leaving Phoenix, told the Racing Post: "(The Racing Post story) was the first I heard of (the allegations), so I was shocked. We had discussions afterwards, and (Abdulaziz) completely denied that he had anything to do with it. I don't remember the exact dates, but there was some dialogue, and I point blank asked what the heck was going on because I'd spent the last 2 1/2 years of my life traveling the world for this company and I didn't want to get dragged down with a bad reputation. "He's continually denied it and he's indicated he had investors from (Fenero) but never OneCoin. I've never been involved (in the fund), so I don't know, but everything's changed since then. I continued to ask him to do some interviews with the press to talk about it, and he just wouldn't do it. Everything changed when that came out. "He told me that Mark Scott invested (in Phoenix) through Fenero, but that's all I knew. He did not deny Fenero funds had gone into Phoenix." Scott is awaiting sentencing after being found guilty of conspiracy to commit money laundering and conspiracy to commit bank fraud late last year. The former lawyer was found to have established a series of funds, collectively known as the Fenero Funds, to route OneCoin cash between destinations. U.S. prosecutors allege 185 million was sent from one such fund, Fenero Equity Investments (Ireland), to Phoenix Fund Investments, the Dubai-based fund of Abdulaziz, between January and April 2017. Courtroom testimony from convicted fraudster Konstantin Ignatov, the brother of OneCoin founder Dr. Ruja Ignatova, alleged that Abdulaziz was a key player in the scam, before he supposedly turned on his co-conspirators and stole 100 million. Ignatov testified at the trial that Abdulaziz subsequently "started buying racehorses for, like, 25 million. (He was) one of the main money-launderers." He added the theft was not reported, as "the money came from a criminal activity." Phoenix Fund Investments and Abdulaziz did not respond to requests for comment from the Racing Post, but when the allegations first came to light in November issued the following statement: "Phoenix Fund Investments categorically denies all allegations made against it, and its owner, Mr. Amer Abdulaziz, in legal proceedings against OneCoin and its conspirators in the U.S. Phoenix Fund Investments believes that the firm and Mr. Amer Abdulaziz have acted according to the law at all times, and will vigorously contest all allegations of wrongdoing. Phoenix Fund Investments will fully cooperate with relevant authorities should they require any assistance." Abdulaziz and Phoenix representatives have declined to respond to any specific questions submitted by the Racing Post since November. Among the allegations Abdulaziz has yet to address is one relating to the apparent use of the Phoenix Business Center, a serviced office facility in a Dubai skyscraper and one of a number of businesses controlled by Phoenix Fund Investments, as a OneCoin office. In December, the Racing Post obtained video and social media evidence that demonstrated OneCoin, which has now all but collapsed as its key players have been arrested or gone underground following a series of criminal investigations and media exposes, operated in the Phoenix premises from November 2017 until around the spring of 2018. The footage does not show whether Abdulaziz knew of the arrangement, but he has offered no comment on how OneCoin came to be based there, or the extent to which he was involved with or aware of its activities. Abdulaziz also initially declined to comment on a Racing Post report that revealed his much-vaunted Thoroughbred investment fund, which he repeatedly claimed was based in Luxembourg and was "the only regulated (Thoroughbred) fund worldwide," had been placed into voluntary liquidation and never operated as a functioning fund after the investment manager approached to run it walked away during the due diligence phase. In January, almost two months after that report appeared, Phoenix released a statement saying it took the decision in June 2019 to "formally dissolve the registered fund (in Luxembourg) before it received any investor monies or became operational." To date, Abdulaziz has declined to identify a single investor in the Phoenix fund, citing client confidentiality, nor have any investors independently come forward to substantiate the fund's legitimacy. Despite his seniority in the organization, Ludt claimed he also never met or knew the identity of any investors. Phoenix Thoroughbreds continues to operate in multiple jurisdictions and in July had a runner in the Investec Oaks (G1) at Epsom. In November, the British Horseracing Authority said it would be "making inquiries as a priority" into Phoenix.
------------- Time is a flat circle |
Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 9:03pm
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CONFIRMED - Phoenix Thoroughbreds will cease racing operations in the United Kingdom and the process will start with immediate effect.
------------- Time is a flat circle |
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2020 at 12:12am
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Jadeskye (Mgr D W Flower) are still collecting cheques, so I wouldnt hold my breath that the same will happen out here. Maybe old mate will ship all of his runners down under
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Posted By: Batman
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2020 at 2:19pm
Nowhere else in the world would a person in jail would be able to race horses. Love this country ------------- Gambling has brought our family closer together. We had to move to a smaller house. |
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2020 at 8:18pm
PHOENIX THOROUGHBREDS TO CONTINUE TO INVEST IN AUSTRALIAN RACING AND BLOODSTOCK
We have already been active at the recent Magic Millions National Broodmare Sale, adding four top-quality assets to our breeding operation, while alongside our trusted partners we have purchased yearlings to go into training. The private market is also an avenue we have been busy in recently and over the last few weeks, we have finalised our breeding plans for our mares with leading stud farms. We also like to take this moment to thank the Racing authorities, State governments, our trainers and their staff for working so hard to keep the sport on the road during these challenging times. All done without sacrificing the World-class product Australia has.
------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 9:19pm
Report: Phoenix Thoroughbreds banned from FranceReports have emerged that the international racing operation Phoenix Thoroughbreds has been banned from racing horses in France in the wake of money laundering allegations. UK newspaper Racing Post has reported France Galop has decided not to allow Phoenix Thoroughbreds to race horses in that jurisdiction from Friday. France Galop has not confirmed the Racing Post report. Phoenix Thoroughbreds has been the subject of controversy since founder Amer Abdulaziz Salman was named in a US court proceedings as being involved in a huge money laundering operation. Abdulaziz has also been accused of siphoning cash from the shady cryptocurrency busines OneCoin. He has always denied the allegations. Phoenix Thoroughbreds announced earlier this month that it would stop racing horses in the UK. The company blamed the Racing Post commentary about the situation for its decision. The company has conducted itself appropriately, despite certain media outlets claiming otherwise, Abdulaziz said in a statement. It is in no small part down to the unfair treatment from an industry media outlet that this decision has been taken. Phoenix Thoroughbreds races horses in Australia, including Group I winner Loving Gaby and https://www.racenet.com.au/golden-slipper" rel="nofollow - Golden Slipper winner Farnan, and reaffirmed its commitment to racing and breeding here. For any ownership group like ours, especially with breeding ambitions, having horses in Australia is a must, Abdulaziz said. With its World-leading facilities, top-class trainers and levels of prize money, the market is a cornerstone of our business. ------------- Time is a flat circle |
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 11:08am
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Now peterprofit.com is onto this big time, this mornings edition is riveting reading, especially his referral to a certain horsey company based in QLD......the rumours around Phoenix have been snowballs, they're now an avalanche. Why does Peter V'landys not come out with a statement? Surely the honest buggers in this industry need to know if we're competing against crooks?...surely that's not happening....is it?
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Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 6:11pm
| Kia Ora Stud.... canny opportunists? |
Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 6:29pm
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Haven't heard much from them the last decade. Remember backing Danasinga and Danenedri during the past and one of their runners trained by Alan Bell was one of my biggest collects Zelvaraja at $128. ------------- Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 6:44pm
Maybe it's old news now in the scheme of things but sorry if your post wasn't initially acknowledged Carioca. Have recently viewed two somewhat differing Abbott and Costello "Who's on first" videos and they're truly brilliant.
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Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 6:55pm
Bit of light hearted banter can be good for uplifting of the spirits second chance.
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Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 7:05pm
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Besides the feint suggestion of insider trading and pending charges of same in India, most of what you read about Ananda Krishnan describes him as being extremely lucky. |
Posted By: monty1
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 9:45pm
| https://www.racingpost.com/news/latest/phoenix-thoroughbreds-barred-from-having-runners-in-britain/450022?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=RP-News&utm_content=Phoenix&utm_term=Null" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingpost.com/news/latest/phoenix-thoroughbreds-barred-from-having-runners-in-britain/450022?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=RP-News&utm_content=Phoenix&utm_term=Null |
Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2020 at 6:32pm
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BHA stopped them from having a runner at Ayr last night ------------- Time is a flat circle |
Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2020 at 8:42pm
| Did they have one in at Newcastle today? |
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2020 at 1:46am
Can you give a bit more info here, Red ? Have a round about connection,,,,,and would like to suss out a bit more info,,, ------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: monty1
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2020 at 1:54am
| AA, read the peterprofit story and you will understand more. |
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2020 at 1:55am
Oh,,OK,,Thanks 
------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 2:51pm
| Spent a lazy $4m so far at the Magic Millions sale, in partnership with Aquis. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:18pm
| Paying overs for most of them. |
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:24pm
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They only need one good colt to come out of them to get their money back. ------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:28pm
What name are they buying under ? ------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:31pm
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:35pm
| Smoke and Mirrors, one day it will all emerge. |
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:49pm
That money's not going to wash itself
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Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:49pm
Yulong began naming their buys Yulong this, Yulong that. This mob might well start calling theirs Ponzi this or even Launder that.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 3:59pm
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People were accusing Yulong as being a front for something n nefarious and people were asked for evidence. What evidence is there of this mob being a front for nefarious activity ? It would not doubt me in the least but I am interested in what is out there.
------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 4:06pm
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Try reading Page 1 here, including your post about Phoenix.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 4:16pm
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------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 6:51pm
Touche!
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Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 7:36pm
| What was the gist of Peter Profit'S article? |
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 6:46am
| Our daily purge seems to have disappeared and draining the swamp a memory. Where has Pete gone? the website has been down for 48hours. |
Posted By: Batman
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 7:25am
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Phoenix, Aquis, Tinkler, Flower, Sun, Yulong, China HC. Wonderful to see our industry in such great hands. Add in Smerdon, Weir, Kav, DOB, Moody, plus vet to the stars Adam M and you will see why the small investors are thinking hard about continued participation. The recent 1000 share syndicators are also making hay while the sun is still shining. ------------- Gambling has brought our family closer together. We had to move to a smaller house. |
Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 12:50pm
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Christine LaGarde of the highly influential European Central Bank ( ECB ), must be watching the Gold Coast sales Overnite she said Bitcoin is being used for money laundering !!!
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Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 5:16pm
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Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 5:27pm
| Link not working RH. |
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 6:14pm
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Wouldn't worry about it SC. The moment has passed. It was just a Simpson's-themed jibe at the finance industry.
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Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 6:25pm
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Cheers mate. ps: seen the total number of overs paid by Fung (Aquis), Fung/Phoenix and Annabel Neasham (read Fung/Aquis) at MM? Some have suggested Fung was using this type of sale medium to get money out of Honkers with an elastic band attached. And that the Phoenix money was sourced via Ponzi stuff. Not that I'd know about or give credit to such suggestions. |
Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 7:01pm
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money laundering? well we/they were all warned of that possibility ------------- change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au |
Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 7:04pm
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Maybe we're just happy to stimulate the economy right now ------------- Time is a flat circle |
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 7:45pm
| It seems bizarre that the one-time Vice Chairman of the Hong Kong Stock Exchange would align himself with a suspected money launderer.... and yet, here we are. |
Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 8:23pm
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I always thought " last resort Laurie " had a shifty look too.
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Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:13pm
| We're all being too kind, too tongue in cheek, but blind Freddy could see this is not kosher, look at all this money being spent, with little chance of a notable recoup, any anti laundering body worth their salt would be all over this. Australia is becoming the new Cayman Is, soon we shall be a laughing stock like NZ where they don't pre race test as they are too broke....... |
Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:15pm
| Four Corners has lost the cred they once had, but surely a good investigative journo like Kate McClymont could delve into this....she may value her life too much, but she is fearless and she would need to be...... |
Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:43pm
How does this obvious money laundering work? The breeder get what out of it? Besides a big tax break......
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Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:50pm
| Bill not break! |
Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:00pm
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Rusty Nails it is a centuries old practice. "Invest" black money in a reputable business ( the buy-in price is of least consideration) the ongoing returns are then legitimate. Speak to anybody who has skimmed sizable amounts of money from a business pre-tax & they will tell how hard it is to spend that money domestically without attracting ATO attention Money coming from overseas. Not a problem. Austrac is fuseless
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:07pm
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True Glencoe, But if we look at the total they have spent at the sales, unless they end up getting a decent well patronised stallion prospect they will have lost quite a lot of money. If I wanted to launder $10 mil and after buying some over-priced yearlings managed to make $2mil prizemoney minus training costs for lets say 10 horses then I'm left with around $1mil. That is good return if you have a billion dollars to launder for someone like them. I can't help but think some of the vendors are involved with kickbacks or some arrangement. Thoughts? ------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world. |
Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:08pm
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Unfortuately we have two problems why oversight will most likely not occur The Oz breeding cartels love the money & the funny money sales money is not widely shared across the industry. There is not a trickle down effect. If anything , prices increase, the market becomes distorted and thus the middle market & small breeder keep getting screwed The other problem is the sanctimonious, non-collegiate approach of each states horse industries
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Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:11pm
| $10 mill is nary a concern. Treated as loose change |
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:31pm
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Bill Vlahos went from mach-4 to zero because there was no money. Here, however, the creditors (MM & Inglis) and breeders get paid, hence why the show rolls on. Publishing a record of every bid would be a significant deterrent, as there needs to be a willing underbidder for the price to go up. Selling 'as agent' should also get the flick. |
Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:36pm
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Lets say they launder $100m over the sales season down in Southern hemisphere. And without a stallion they get $10 mil out of it via racing the yearlings. I understand that it is loose change but it is not really worth the effort of making the original 100m if you only get 10mil on the 'clean side'. I come to the conclusion that they are getting kickbacks from the vendors. There are others like yourself Glencoe with more experience and insight but what does anyone think of that conclusion? ------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world. |
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:55pm
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Kickbacks, syndicates. Tomayto, tomarto.
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Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:00pm
| I've got my theory, if I express it I'll be locked up or worse........I just hope one day it all comes out and the guilty are done like dinners. |
Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:07pm
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Come on Bonjour, share or at least message with theory. You won't end up in jail. Maybe something worse could happen but this is an anonymous forum and very unlike you to be silenced. ------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:20pm
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Not that this would ever happen, but: "$400,000. "I'll guarantee to buy him for $800,000, so long as we split the extra $400,000 (60/40 your way because of tax, commission etc)". "Done". So the horse has actually costs the purchaser $704,000 inc GST. The purchaser then adds his profit (30% on top of the implied $880,000 purchase price) plus on-costs and syndicates the yearling at a valuation of just over $1,000,000.
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Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:20pm
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kavg, its supposed to be anonymous, but I can promise you many here know who is who. ------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:27pm
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Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:52pm
And the breeder receives $640, but pays tax on $800. Hmmmm Ill pass
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Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:59pm
| They're catching on SC....... |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:09pm
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So the split's a bit different Rusty: just produced the above in a jiffy. Bottom line is that the arrangement guarantees that the vendor gets his reserve (which he may not have otherwise achieved) plus extra for his trouble, and the syndicator makes a windfall profit. Win/win.
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:15pm
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That's what I expected and alluded to Second. Understand AA, respect Bonjour's right to silence. But this is all hypothetical as Second said ------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world. |
Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:19pm
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And whilst in this 'hypothetical world' this is the obvious reason why the sales market has held up for the last countless years because prior to this lot, there have been countless others doing the same. The participating vendors are partly to blame and of course the sales companies and authorities all turn a blind eye but they share, along with governments, the majority of the blame. But of course if i make an honest $1000 mistake in my tax return they will be just as understanding. ------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world. |
Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:51pm
No doubt syndicators use this tactic, probably giving the vendor an invoice for consulting, to make them square tax wise. But I thought we were talking about nefarious characters wanting to launder money.
In which case its the other way around. If, say I had $10M I wanted to launder, Id be wanting to officially pay $4M for my $10M asset, with the balance paid under the table. In which case paying over the odds is not the solution. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:56pm
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But let's move on from possible syndication rorts and come back to Tony Fung (Aquis). It appears he's shutting down his stud presence in both Victoria and NSW and moving most of his stallions (most of them 2nd graders) to Qld. Yet he's still buying heaps of yearling colts, paying clear overs for most of them. But what's most incredible is the fact that he's formed an alliance with Phoenix, the alleged Ponzi scheme mob which is a banned pariah in almost every racing country except of Australia. Why would anyone form an alliance with such a discredited entity as Phoenix? Vendors may well be counting their blessings just for the moment, but ultimately it's highly likely that little good will ultimately come of this.
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Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 5:59pm
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Rusty, Per SCs example... the laundry tips in 800, immediately receives 240 back from the vendor, then syndicates half the horse for another 500. 7.5% leakage is better than youll get at TravelEx . PLUS, youre still sitting on an asset worth $500k.Most would be happy to get a clean $800k back out of a dirty $1m that they cant touch. Bear in mind, the players in question are trying to wash billions. Theyd be well aware that 70-80% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
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Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 6:34pm
Spot on.
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Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 7:52pm
| Sadly S.Chance this has become a funging joke |
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 9:01pm
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Talking to a breeder tonight about the sales. Big breeder been around a long time. Says Tony Fung is crooked as a dogs hind leg. Why would he hook up with Phoenix which is discredited everywhere else. Sad and sorry outcome for most of those horses. Lets hope the owners get Ned away from Aquis soon. ------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 9:48pm
No, you have tipped in 800 of kosher money, and got sneaky 240 that you need to launder. Its the reverse of money laundering. (And in this example, the breeders well out of pocket)
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Posted By: Bonjour
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 11:36am
He won't hang around when he doesn't get the 2nd casino! .
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 4:32pm
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Sorry for my ignorance but who is Ned?
------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world. |
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 4:43pm
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Needs Further . And I might be ignorant too,  as can never recall if he is with Aquis or Sun Studs,,,but I think Aquis.------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 5:09pm
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Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 5:30pm
| Was brought to the mainland on the back of Mystic Journey's success. Don't think Aquis has equity in the stallion who will have to find yet another home later this year. |
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2021 at 7:41pm
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I for one sure hope they dont have any claims on the stallion. And I hope a nicer home can be found for him. ------------- animals before people. |