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2019 Melbourne Cup

Printed From: Thoroughbred Village
Category: Horse Racing - Public Forums
Forum Name: Racing Forum
Forum Description: General discussion about thoroughbred horse racing
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=62873
Printed Date: 26 Sep 2020 at 6:17am


Topic: 2019 Melbourne Cup
Posted By: djebel
Subject: 2019 Melbourne Cup
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 7:04pm


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reductio ad absurdum






Replies:
Posted By: correctweight
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:51am
Going really early I see


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 12:47am
Ghostwatch just won in nice style at Ascot.

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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2018 at 7:27pm
Ghostwatch................
Extra Brut...................105
Stars Of Carrum.........95
Alessandro..................67
Grey Khan...................60


WHat sort of handicapping is this ? 5 kgs difference between Extra Brut and Stars Of Carrum is bullgelati.





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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2018 at 1:13pm
What price Who Shot Thebarman

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 1:46pm
From that race 45 minutes ago.

Finche and Marmelo the two for next year.

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 1:53pm
Thought another NH 3yo in Rostropovich was also super today.  Never better than 4 wide without cover throughout and a huge effort to guts it out for 5th.  


Posted By: Smoke and Mirrors
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 2:28pm
Winner will be trained at Werribee

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"Go Hard or Go Home”


Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by Smoke and Mirrors Smoke and Mirrors wrote:

Winner will be trained at Werribee


Not doubting you know more than me, but they just said its off to Dubai ???Confused


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animals before people.


Posted By: Smoke and Mirrors
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by acacia alba acacia alba wrote:

Originally posted by Smoke and Mirrors Smoke and Mirrors wrote:

Winner will be trained at Werribee


Not doubting you know more than me, but they just said its off to Dubai ???Confused


This is the thread for next years Cup.
All I meant was, trained at Werribee - another international winning

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"Go Hard or Go Home”


Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2018 at 7:41pm
Ohhh  Thumbs Up


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animals before people.


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 7:24am
Chapada
Visao


Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 9:42am
I am very eager to see how Waller trains Finche over the next 12 months.

A nice soft Lloyd autumn campaign starting off in the Australian Cup, then into the Tancred and then either the Sydney Cup or Queen Elizabeth should tick him over nicely.

If he does the old start him at 1200 or 1400m, and runs him every fortnight, then he ruins the horse.

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2018 at 4:22pm
The race has zero interest for me now as far as betting goes. What is next year's winner, another NH 3YO, up to at the moment?

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"Two hundred years ago, 99.999 percent of human idiocy went unrecorded. Now we have the Internet."

Errol Morris


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 6:59am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

The race has zero interest for me now as far as betting goes. What is next year's winner, another NH 3YO, up to at the moment?


To answer my own question, at this time last year Cross Counter was unraced.

I've just come across something interesting. The racingpost form says "gelding notification", after he won his first two starts. Did they geld him after his first two starts, which sounds very odd to me, or is that when the public was notified he was a gelding, also odd, or is just the weird way racingpost format their form?

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/1737321/cross-counter/form" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/1737321/cross-counter/form


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"Two hundred years ago, 99.999 percent of human idiocy went unrecorded. Now we have the Internet."

Errol Morris


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 8:46am
If Cross Counter returns...what weight would he get roughly?

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: TOLEDO
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 1:20pm
cross counter would get about 56kg i reckon


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by TOLEDO TOLEDO wrote:

cross counter would get about 56kg i reckon


I reckon around 55kg...providing he doesnt win much from here on in towards the Cup.

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: TOLEDO
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 1:28pm
Probably closer to 57 actually.    he was 4.5kg under wfa so assume 2.5kg penalty to 2kg under wfa


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 1:43pm
I thought they didn't geld horses in England. What happened to this poor fellow, Djebel?

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"Two hundred years ago, 99.999 percent of human idiocy went unrecorded. Now we have the Internet."

Errol Morris


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by TOLEDO TOLEDO wrote:

Probably closer to 57 actually.    he was 4.5kg under wfa so assume 2.5kg penalty to 2kg under wfa


57kg makes it tough to win

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

I thought they didn't geld horses in England. What happened to this poor fellow, Djebel?


They are not as geld happy as our self serving trainers.

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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 10:14am
Jaameh and Sully both failed to boost their ratings high enough to guarantee a slot in next years Cup.



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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: mikey
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 4:37pm
The rise in weight for Cross Counter will be partially offset by the fact that he will be fully grown & developed in another 12 months. His win was extraordinary and you would have to go back to Kiwi in 1983 to find a winner as strong through the line. I think he could well be very competitive again with a weight of 56-57kgs.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 4:56pm
In the last twenty years only four horses have carried 56kg or more and won the Melbourne Cup:


1997: Might And Power (56kg)

2005: Makybe Diva (58kg)

2006: Delta Blues (56kg)

2014: Protectionist (56.5kg)


If he gets more then 55.5kg then I won't be backing him. Yes you can all call me harsh and crazy but thats my line of thinking. Not many win the Cup with 56kg or more...it's simply too hard. Some place...which is a good effort...but not many win.




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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

In the last twenty years only four horses have carried 56kg or more and won the Melbourne Cup:


1997: Might And Power (56kg)

2005: Makybe Diva (58kg)

2006: Delta Blues (56kg)

2014: Protectionist (56.5kg)


If he gets more then 55.5kg then I won't be backing him. Yes you can all call me harsh and crazy but thats my line of thinking. Not many win the Cup with 56kg or more...it's simply too hard. Some place...which is a good effort...but not many win.




It is not a case of simply being too hard.

In that same period how many horses have carried more than 56 kgs.

In 20 years there'd have been close to 240 horses start in the race. 80% would have carried less than 56.



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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 10:06pm
I am hearing, that Charlie thinks he is a high grade 2400m horse and that we will not even see him next year.





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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2018 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

I am hearing, that Charlie thinks he is a high grade 2400m horse and that we will not even see him next year.






Maybe the Arc could be on the cards?

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: Grey Affair
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

I am hearing, that Charlie thinks he is a high grade 2400m horse and that we will not even see him next year.






Maybe the Arc could be on the cards?


Geldings cannot run in the Arc.



Posted By: mikey
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 3:54am
2019 Melbourne Cup.

Cross Counter
Rekindling
Latrobe

Could all be there! The race just gets stronger & stronger.

Think we might be seeing the beginnings of a breeding industry for stayers emerging in Australia too. The Fiorente's are getting a mention & Lloyd has kept Rekindling/Johannes Vermeer in Australia who are ready made Stallions. Apparently he is also considering keeping Latrobe in Australia?


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 9:35am
Originally posted by mikey mikey wrote:

2019 Melbourne Cup.

Cross Counter
Rekindling
Latrobe

Could all be there! The race just gets stronger & stronger.

Think we might be seeing the beginnings of a breeding industry for stayers emerging in Australia too. The Fiorente's are getting a mention & Lloyd has kept Rekindling/Johannes Vermeer in Australia who are ready made Stallions. Apparently he is also considering keeping Latrobe in Australia?

I must admit I was annoyed to read he had sold The United States to South Africa, he looked to me to have a lovely presence about himself with good bone and balance, being a son of Galileo this could be the one that got away , but that's for future posts.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:15pm


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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 6:52pm
Cross Counter will be running on Dubai World Cup night in the Dubai Gold Cup.

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 10:23am
Don't like that idea Jamal and it is disappointing after what Appleby said that he wouldn't run. Horses running in humidity of HK and Dubai can struggle to find form later especially if they have a tough run.

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If you want peace in this world stop being a hypocrite and start with what is on your plate and in your bowl.
Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world.


Posted By: crooked_gambler
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 10:24am
Last I heard he wasn’t going to Dubai.

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This space has been intentionally left blank


Posted By: Majestic
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 9:31am
How is Cross Counter rated in the Australian Timeform rating as a 3yo?


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2019 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Majestic Majestic wrote:

How is Cross Counter rated in the Australian Timeform rating as a 3yo?


He was a 3yo and carried the weight of a 3yo in the Cup.



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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 11:45am
After 10 years losing i won the last two.

I'm still behind financially despite the wins on Rekindling and Cross Counter.

Low weight horses are definitely the go whilst VRC let them in.



Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 11:48am
The ratings are rubbish.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:

After 10 years losing i won the last two.

I'm still behind financially despite the wins on Rekindling and Cross Counter.

Low weight horses are definitely the go whilst VRC let them in.



What's the answer ?

They give fully established good horses less than 58 kgs. Those who have yet to do anything substantial can hardly be crucified.



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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:

After 10 years losing i won the last two.

I'm still behind financially despite the wins on Rekindling and Cross Counter.

Low weight horses are definitely the go whilst VRC let them in.



What's the answer ?

They give fully established good horses less than 58 kgs. Those who have yet to do anything substantial can hardly be crucified.



The answer is much better than anything you'll offer.



Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:

After 10 years losing i won the last two.

I'm still behind financially despite the wins on Rekindling and Cross Counter.

Low weight horses are definitely the go whilst VRC let them in.



What's the answer ?

They give fully established good horses less than 58 kgs. Those who have yet to do anything substantial can hardly be crucified.



The Internationals are clearly too light.

These are rubbish horses winning our best (which it isn't) as jandicapped very poorly.

The Answer? * the overseas and give them big weights.Most are rubbish anyway, and will stop the lightweights sneaking yhrough


Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 2:58pm
*handicapped*
*through*


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 2:59pm
That seems like histrionics to me. 

How do you give "rubbish horses" more weight ? 


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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 4:52pm
It would to you.

Why are rubbish horses winning Melb Cups if weighted appropriately?


Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 4:55pm
The Melb Cup is about all star mile level of credibility.

Complete joke of a race.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 4:56pm
What ?

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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 4:59pm
Yes Mr (local) X you can go through all grades buts miss out at 56kgs.

Yes Mr (overseas) X win a gelati group 3 with 8 people watching and you're locked in at 52kgs.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 5:10pm
Yep yep, histrionics.

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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 10:39pm
Reality.


Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 2:49pm
I see Warwick farm trainer Matthew Smith has the group 3 German St Leger winner Sweet Thomas and a couple of other stakes level stayers.

Trying to get a less expensive type who is just below top level is extremely difficult, but as he said even if the horse does not reach the cup, he can win some of the weak Sydney staying events, which is worth good money.

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 2:59pm
The Internationals are weighted ridiculously low.

It used to be the other way around but VRC have massively overcorrected it.

gelatitest race on the Calender. UK trainers have worked out the strategy, as has sweetheart Lloyd Williams, and now the race sucks.


Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 3:01pm
*sweetheart* bit different than what i wrote!
Funny though.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 3:07pm
Considering the handicapper himself has a phobia with giving anything anymore than 58 kgs most top horses are getting in light these days.



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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 3:11pm
Well it's an indictment on what used to be a great race.

Now it's gelati. VRC completely to blame.


Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 3:14pm
He doesn't seem to mind weighting Jap horses.

Loves weighting UK hurdlers and French with nothing when obviously they're better than their weight.

Guy needs to move on into gardening or something.


Posted By: tillyras
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 7:05pm
Just an update on the ATB International stables:

Nakeeta has been moved on. Tiberian is in the process of being moved on.

Launching a new horse called Melburnian with the Heartbreak City connections, kicks off in a hurdle at Fairyhouse tonight. Possibility of ending up in Australia one day.


Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2019 at 10:56pm
Well I know one thing tillyras.

If he happens to run a placing in the Melbourne Cup it will be a huge party. Those guys loved running second to Almandin just as much as winning.

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: Xavier
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 11:01am
Wasn’t a bad effort by Melburnian first up in a two mile hurdle since June 2018
She’s still a filly aswell!
Her form card below

http://www.goracing.ie/racing-statistics/horses/data/?hid=192688" rel="nofollow - http://www.goracing.ie/racing-statistics/horses/data/?hid=192688

Melburnian (FR) ch F 2015 Zambezi Sun (GB) - Moscow Nights (FR)

Trainer: A.J.Martin
Previous Trainer(s):
Owner: Back For More ATB Partnership

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Karl and Susan Kennedy are my heroes


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 11:05am
MELBURNIAN (FR)Chestnut filly 2015 
Zambezi Sun
Bay 2004
Dansili
Bay or brown 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Hasili
Bay 1991
Kahyasi
Bay 1985
Ile de Bourbon
Kadissya
1975
1979
4-i
5-e
Kerali
Chestnut 1984
High Line
Sookera
1966
1975
5-e
11>
Imbabala
Chestnut 1995
Zafonic
Bay 1990
Gone West
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Secrettame
1970
1978
13-c
2-f
Zaizafon
Chestnut 1982
The Minstrel
Mofida
1974
1974
8-f
9-e
Interval
Chestnut 1984
Habitat
Bay 1966
Sir Gaylord
Little Hut
1959
1952
2-s
4-r
Intermission
Chestnut 1973
Stage Door Johnny
Peace
1965
1966
1-l
1-p
Moscow Nights
Chestnut 2004
Peintre Celebre
Chestnut 1994
Nureyev
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Special
Bay 1969
Forli
Thong
1963
1964
3-b
5-h
Peinture Bleue
Chestnut 1987
Alydar
Chestnut 1975
Raise a Native
Sweet Tooth
1961
1965
8-f
9-c
Petroleuse
Bay 1978
Habitat
Plencia
1966
1968
4-r
9>
Memoire
Bay 1998
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Moonlight Dance
Bay 1991
Alysheba
Bay 1984
Alydar
Bel Sheba
1975
1970
9-c
20>
Madelia
Chestnut 1974
Caro
Moonmadness
1967
1963
3-o
1-p
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m x 4m,4m Habitat4f x 5f Specialx 4m,5f 
  Alydarx 4f,5m


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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 11:09am
Godolphin will have a formidable army to defend their crown.

Cross Counter
Ispolini
Ghostwatch
Dubhe

Make up the team at this stage.





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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Godolphin will have a formidable army to defend their crown.

Cross Counter
Ispolini
Ghostwatch
Dubhe

Make up the team at this stage.





I know this will sound racist, but it just fact.

You forget the ones Saeed brings and just look at Charlie Appleby.

It took Charlie 3 years to do what Saeed has not been able to do in 20!

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: Xavier
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 1:21pm
You make a good point

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Karl and Susan Kennedy are my heroes


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 1:26pm
2 things.

Joseph winning with a lightly raced 3yo has probably changed everything.

And there has been a feeling, a sentiment that Ferguson was sending the best youngsters to Applebly over Saeed. Saeed blew up about it and Ferguson left the organisation. 

It will be interesting to see if things even out over the next few seasons.




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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 1:52pm
Something has to stop the classy O'seas types from being set for our Famous Race , then a quick visit , having beaten the handicapper.
They are only exploiting the race conditions as Bart did many times.

For a start ,   a qualifying race in Australia, before they are eligible to start and their initial weight, must exceed our WFA scale by at least 1or2K.
   The Cup is an Australian Icon that keeps the dream alive, > That must not change.
   As times change & such huge prizemoney available , The holes in the credentials to gain a run in the Cup and other rich handicaps , need to be tightened .
ONLY MHO.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

   Something has to stop the classy O'seas types from being set for our Famous Race , then a quick visit , having beaten the handicapper.
They are only exploiting the race conditions as Bart did many times.

For a start ,   a qualifying race in Australia, before they are eligible to start and their initial weight, must exceed our WFA scale by at least 1or2K.
   The Cup is an Australian Icon that keeps the dream alive, > That must not change.
   As times change & such huge prizemoney available , The holes in the credentials to gain a run in the Cup and other rich handicaps , need to be tightened .
ONLY MHO.


How did Bart "exploit" the race conditions. The race is a handicap...the idea is to "get em in light" And if he was explpitong the rsce conditions as you pit it...then he wasn't the only one and he w oknt be the last either.

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 2:41pm
I think Max was saying that he exploited it the year that Rogan Josh won. Don't ask me, ask macca to explain.

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If you want peace in this world stop being a hypocrite and start with what is on your plate and in your bowl.
Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by kavg kavg wrote:

I think Max was saying that he exploited it the year that Rogan Josh won. Don't ask me, ask macca to explain.


Not sure how Bart exploited the Cup rules/conditions with Rogan Josh. The horse isn't the only light weight winner to win the race and he certainly won't be the last light weight to win.

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 2:55pm
jamal ...   ( Last to first Bart ) In his day , qualified some of his horses in races like the Brisbane Carnival , and then didn't give a yelp thereafter ----   Well beaten CC...    Last in the Practice Stakes ,
MaCkinnon ...    THEN the grand final = Bolts in the CUP...   as did Think Big. and Others ...
One Trainer over generation --- I avoided , was Bart.
Anthony ( A true nice guy , having met him numerous times ) I look closely at his ----    James , NOW there you go , You can go there with confidence ( Hopefully he retains his different percentage of winners to that of his Family members )     ___   
The Cup conditions are tighter now , but the initial weights saw Barts rep...   Get 49K in the 1991 MC.   ( Lets Elope )

Bart had too many Flies in his stable ... and was unable to get a ruling on how many he was allowed ...   ( My fav = Bart's one liner )


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 3:08pm
Think Big couldn't win a "walkover" even at WFA Macca, surely you realise that he was nothing but a handicapper as is the cup.


Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Think Big couldn't win a "walkover" even at WFA Macca, surely you realise that he was nothing but a handicapper as is the cup.


Of Course Croca ...    I only mentioned him as another who tailed off in the practice stakes .     Which was only a barrier trial for Cup Horses.

Bart was smart enough to get them qualified and then avoid getting penalties ...       
The same man would have been a spectator had I been a Steward ... Lets put it that way.
Top of the prizemoney . Bottom of the winner percentage - year after year.

I know a few successful Punters ... They rate their trainers as much as their horses.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

jamal ...   ( Last to first Bart ) In his day , qualified some of his horses in races like the Brisbane Carnival , and then didn't give a yelp thereafter ----   Well beaten CC...    Last in the Practice Stakes ,
MaCkinnon ...    THEN the grand final = Bolts in the CUP...   as did Think Big. and Others ...
One Trainer over generation --- I avoided , was Bart.
Anthony ( A true nice guy , having met him numerous times ) I look closely at his ----    James , NOW there you go , You can go there with confidence ( Hopefully he retains his different percentage of winners to that of his Family members )     ___   
The Cup conditions are tighter now , but the initial weights saw Barts rep...   Get 49K in the 1991 MC.   ( Lets Elope )

Bart had too many Flies in his stable ... and was unable to get a ruling on how many he was allowed ...   ( My fav = Bart's one liner )


Your memory isn't very good. Some of Bart's Cup winners ran well in the Caulfield Cup and ran well in the MacKinnon Stakes. Not all of them last as you're alluding too.

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Think Big couldn't win a "walkover" even at WFA Macca, surely you realise that he was nothing but a handicapper as is the cup.


Of Course Croca ...    I only mentioned him as another who tailed off in the practice stakes .     Which was only a barrier trial for Cup Horses.

Bart was smart enough to get them qualified and then avoid getting penalties ...       
The same man would have been a spectator had I been a Steward ... Lets put it that way.
Top of the prizemoney . Bottom of the winner percentage - year after year.

I know a few successful Punters ... They rate their trainers as much as their horses.


1974 - Think Big DID NOT run in the MacKinnon Stakes, he ran in the Hotham and won it.

1975 - Think Big DID run in the MacKinnon Stakes and ran 10th.

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Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 3:34pm
Bart's Melbourne Cup Winners - Record at Previous Start Before Cup Win



1965: Light Fingers: 3rd (Mackinnon Stakes)

1966: Galilee: 3rd (Mackinnon Stakes)

1967: Red Handed: 4th (Mackinnon Stakes)

1974: Think Big: 1st (Hotham Handicap)

1975: Think Big: 10th (Mackinnon Stakes)

1977: Gold And Black: 2nd (Mackinnon Stakes)

1979: Hyperno: 4th (Mackinnon Stakes)

1990: Kingston Rule: 2nd (Dalgety Stakes)

1991: Let's Elope: 1st (Mackinnon Stakes)

1996: Saintly: 1st (Cox Plate)

1999: Rogan Josh: 1st (Mackinnon Stakes)

2008: Viewed: 10th (Mackinnon Stakes)


12 runners: 4-2-2

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Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

jamal ...   ( Last to first Bart ) In his day , qualified some of his horses in races like the Brisbane Carnival , and then didn't give a yelp thereafter ----   Well beaten CC...    Last in the Practice Stakes ,
MaCkinnon ...    THEN the grand final = Bolts in the CUP...   as did Think Big. and Others ...
One Trainer over generation --- I avoided , was Bart.
Anthony ( A true nice guy , having met him numerous times ) I look closely at his ----    James , NOW there you go , You can go there with confidence ( Hopefully he retains his different percentage of winners to that of his Family members )     ___   
The Cup conditions are tighter now , but the initial weights saw Barts rep...   Get 49K in the 1991 MC.   ( Lets Elope )

Bart had too many Flies in his stable ... and was unable to get a ruling on how many he was allowed ...   ( My fav = Bart's one liner )


Your memory isn't very good. Some of Bart's Cup winners ran well in the Caulfield Cup and ran well in the MacKinnon Stakes. Not all of them last as you're alluding too.

   He had some smart horses , not disputing.    Think big won 2 so would have been penalised the 2nd time but I don't recall too many of Bart's Starters in the Cup being highly weighted.

Did any of you win backing Bart Cummings Horses ??? . over the years.


Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 4:05pm
BLASPHEMY I'm charged with ..    Hatch will disown me .

That is the offence you face if you do what I have done over the years re
Bartholomew.    I once suggested a different place to put that statue .

Forgive me.    I shall repent and forgive Viewed & co for their glaring reversals.
   One must not forget Bart still hold the 3200m Flemington Racord with
Kingston Rule and led in some 13 winners including one I backed , The great Comic Court, In CR 3.19.1.   Where have those years gone.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

   Something has to stop the classy O'seas types from being set for our Famous Race , then a quick visit , having beaten the handicapper.
They are only exploiting the race conditions as Bart did many times.

For a start ,   a qualifying race in Australia, before they are eligible to start and their initial weight, must exceed our WFA scale by at least 1or2K.
   The Cup is an Australian Icon that keeps the dream alive, > That must not change.
   As times change & such huge prizemoney available , The holes in the credentials to gain a run in the Cup and other rich handicaps , need to be tightened .
ONLY MHO.



This is not a bad point.

I do believe that French trained horses can not or at least could not run in a handicap in England and vis versa. The reason being, there was little form for the handicapper to work with.

I am happy for somebody to correct me on the above point.



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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

jamal ...   ( Last to first Bart ) In his day , qualified some of his horses in races like the Brisbane Carnival , and then didn't give a yelp thereafter ----   Well beaten CC...    Last in the Practice Stakes ,
MaCkinnon ...    THEN the grand final = Bolts in the CUP...   as did Think Big. and Others ...
One Trainer over generation --- I avoided , was Bart.
Anthony ( A true nice guy , having met him numerous times ) I look closely at his ----    James , NOW there you go , You can go there with confidence ( Hopefully he retains his different percentage of winners to that of his Family members )     ___   
The Cup conditions are tighter now , but the initial weights saw Barts rep...   Get 49K in the 1991 MC.   ( Lets Elope )

Bart had too many Flies in his stable ... and was unable to get a ruling on how many he was allowed ...   ( My fav = Bart's one liner )


Your memory isn't very good. Some of Bart's Cup winners ran well in the Caulfield Cup and ran well in the MacKinnon Stakes. Not all of them last as you're alluding too.

   He had some smart horses , not disputing.    Think big won 2 so would have been penalised the 2nd time but I don't recall too many of Bart's Starters in the Cup being highly weighted.

Did any of you win backing Bart Cummings Horses ??? . over the years.



Bart's highly weighted Cup winners were:

1966: Galilee (56.5kg)

1975: Think Big (58.5kg)

1977: Gold And Black (57kg)

1979: Hyperno (56kg)

1996: Saintly (55.5kg)

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Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 5:41pm
What are their plans with Avilius?

Is he now going shorter or heading to another Cup?

He could win the Cox Plate if aimed for it imo now the great mare is going.


Posted By: Lord Hybrow
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2019 at 7:32am
Noticed the 2018 Cup runner up MARMELO resumed overnight in a G3 2400m race at Newbury and he won first up.

Wonder if he’ll be back for a 3rd crack at the Melb Cup later this year?


Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 12:12am
I hope so Lordy.

I think he is actually a better 3200m horse than Red Cadeaux, but RC was a better WFA horse, his second in the Queen Elizabeth a good example!

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 11:00am
The Hughie Morrison-trained Marmelo prior to the 2017 Emirates Melbourne Cup (Image: Racing Photos)

Marmelo wins, Cup again an option


Brad Bishop

14 April, 2019


Hughie Morrison is considering a third trip to Melbourne with Marmelo, who on Saturday night returned to racing with a stunning win at Newbury in England.

The Duke Of Marmalade six-year-old overpowered his rivals in the Group 3 John Porter Stakes (2414m) at his first start since beating home all bar Cross Counter under 56kg in last year’s Melbourne Cup.

It followed a ninth placing, as $7 equal favourite, in the 2017 Melbourne Cup won by Rekindling.

“I think we have every good reason (to go to Melbourne again),” Morrison told Racing TV after the John Porter Stakes.

“We would obviously carry more weight this year, but he’s a big horse, so he can carry the weight and you could say he was a bit unlucky last year, he got there (to the front) too early.”

The John Porter Stakes win has all but convinced Morrison to head to the Group 1 Coronation Cup (2414m) at Epsom on May 31.

“We put him in the Coronation Cup at Epsom and he’s in the Yorkshire Cup, but I suspect I’d be likely to wait for the Coronation Cup and hope that we have a bit of rain, which we’d probably be due by then,” Morrison said.

"We'll be looking at those sort of races, but we won't be over-racing him, as we never have done."

 



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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything, it's too late to stop reading it.


Posted By: breeding_above_all
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2019 at 6:28am
I’m not a big international racing watcher, anyone give the main lead up races like Gold Cup etc dates?


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 26 May 2019 at 7:25pm


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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: Tontonan
Date Posted: 26 May 2019 at 8:31pm
DATE TRACK RACE DIST AGE SEX PURSE
31-May-19 Epsom Investec Oaks 12.03 F  3 f £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
1-Jun-19 Epsom Investec Derby Stakes 12.03 F  3 £ 1,500,000 (*$1,920,000)
18-Jun-19 Ascot St James'S Palace Stakes 7.97 F  3 £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
18-Jun-19 Ascot Queen Anne Stakes 8 F  4U £ 600,000 (*$768,000)
18-Jun-19 Ascot King'S Stand Stakes 5 F  3U £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
19-Jun-19 Ascot Prince Of Wales Stakes 9.96 F  4U £ 750,000 (*$960,000)
20-Jun-19 Ascot Ascot Gold Cup 19.95 F  4U £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
21-Jun-19 Ascot Coronation Stakes 7.97 F  3 f £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
21-Jun-19 Ascot Commonwealth Cup 6 F  3 £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
22-Jun-19 Ascot Diamond Jubilee Stakes 6 F  4U £ 600,000 (*$768,000)
6-Jul-19 Sandown Coral-Eclipse   9.95 F  3U £ 750,000 (*$960,000)
12-Jul-19 Newmarket Tattersalls Falmouth Stakes 8 F  3U fm £ 200,000 (*$256,000)
13-Jul-19 Newmarket Darley July Cup Stakes 6 F  3U £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
27-Jul-19 Ascot King George Vi And Queen Elizabeth Sks  11.96 F  3U £ 1,250,000 (*$1,600,000)
30-Jul-19 Goodwood Qatar Goodwood Cup Stakes 16 F  3U £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
31-Jul-19 Goodwood Qatar Sussex Stakes 8 F  3U £ 1,059,250 (*$1,355,840)
1-Aug-19 Goodwood Qatar Nassau Stakes 9.90 F  3U fm £ 600,000 (*$768,000)
21-Aug-19 York Juddmonte International Stakes 10.25 F  3U £ 1,000,000 (*$1,280,000)
22-Aug-19 York Yorkshire Oaks 11.85 F  3U fm £ 350,000 (*$448,000)
23-Aug-19 York Coolmore Nunthorpe Stakes 5 F  2U £ 400,000 (*$512,000)
7-Sep-19 Haydock 32red Sprint Cup Stakes 6 F  3U £ 300,000 (*$384,000)
14-Sep-19 Doncaster William Hill St Leger Stakes 14.52 F  3 £ 700,000 (*$896,000)
28-Sep-19 Newmarket Juddmonte Middle Park Stakes 6 F  2 £ 275,000 (*$352,000)
28-Sep-19 Newmarket Juddmonte Cheveley Park Stakes 6 F  2 f £ 275,000 (*$352,000)
5-Oct-19 Newmarket Kingdom Of Bahrain Sun Chariot Stakes 8 F  3U fm £ 250,000 (*$320,000)
11-Oct-19 Newmarket Bet365 Fillies' Mile 8 F  2 f £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
12-Oct-19 Newmarket Darley Dewhurst Stakes  7 F  2 £ 500,000 (*$640,000)
19-Oct-19 Ascot Qipco British Champions Sprint Stakes 6 F  3U £ 632,500 (*$809,600)
19-Oct-19 Ascot Qipco British Champions Fillies & Mares S 11.96 F  3U fm £ 600,000 (*$768,000)
19-Oct-19 Ascot Queen Elizabeth Ii Stakes  8 F  3U £ 1,156,250 (*$1,480,000)
19-Oct-19 Ascot Qipco Champion Stakes 9.96 F  3U £ 1,300,000 (*$1,664,000)
26-Oct-19 Doncaster Vertem Futurity Trophy Stakes 8 F  2 £ 231,000 (*$295,680)

That is all the Group 1 races in the UK for the remainder of the season.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 26 May 2019 at 8:33pm
Missing Fridays Coronation Cup. 

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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 26 May 2019 at 11:09pm
djebel that photo is so cruel to those connections and the trainer, and worst of all, me

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2019 at 4:37pm
I see overnight that OTI's Amade, won the 2 mile Belmont Gold Cup invitational.

Anyone with better international credentials than me comment on this performance and where this horse sits as a chance in the cup?

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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 9:48am
Melbourne Cup now worth $8 million dollars.


https://www.racing.com/news/2019-06-11/news-melbourne-cup-worth-$" rel="nofollow - https://www.racing.com/news/2019-06-11/news-melbourne-cup-worth-$ 8m

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Your F50 aircraft is now ready for boarding.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 9:50am

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The 2018 Lexus Melbourne Cup trophy, valued at $200,000 (Image: Kate Watts)
The Lexus Melbourne Cup trophy (Image: Kate Watts)

Melbourne Cup worth $8m
Andrew Eddy@fastisheddy 9:09am O
,(
The Melbourne Cup is back as being the richest race of the week of spring racing at Flemington with the race worth $8 million this November.

In a clear response to Racing NSW’s move on Flemington’s spring territory with the inaugural $7.5 million Golden Eagle (1500m) to be run at Rosehill on Victoria Derby day, the increase of just $700,000 on last year’s purse ensures the world’s richest handicap remains the country’s richest race for the first week of November.

Victoria Racing Club chair Amanda Elliott told the Herald Sun the Melbourne Cup remains the race participants desire most.

"It is the race every Australian owner, trainer and jockey wants to win, and internationally, has become one of the most sought-after prizes in world racing," she said.

Elliott also took aim at Racing NSW’s $14 million The Everest – which is to be run on Caulfield Cup day.

"Connections cannot buy a place in the Lexus Melbourne Cup, it has to be earned."

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© 2019 Racing Victoria Limited (RV) and other parties working with it. VIC and SA racing materials, including fields, form and results, is subject to copyright which is owned respectively by RV and TRSA and other parties working with them.




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Posted By: Lord Hybrow
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 10:24am
Noticed that a horse called Gold Mount won the Grand Cup (Listed, 2787m) at York overnight & is being aimed st the Melb Cup, via the Ebor Hcp.

Interesting to look at horses that have run in this Listed race ovet the past few years includes the likes of Marmelo, Cavalryman, Dal Harraild, Nakeeta & Quest for More.


Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 10:29am
Posted this in other thread but I'll put here too.

We sourced Gold Mount for the current owner after his Ascot win and I always thought he would make a good cups horse. Got in contact with Ladbrokes yesterday morning and asked them for a price for him for the Cup. They gave me 126s which I quickly boosted to 151s and took. He is currently 51s.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 1:29am
Would be great for Cross Counter to come for the Cup again.

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Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 1:52am
Am hoping Cross Counter returns for the Melbourne Cup. By him not winning the Ascot Gold Cup and only running 4th...the door is certainly open to return. Should only get 56kg to 56.5kg, that's a winnable weight for a horse of his calibre.

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Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 7:12am
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Posted this in other thread but I'll put here too.

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">We sourced Gold Mount for the current owner after his Ascot win and I always thought he would make a good cups horse. Got in contact with Ladbrokes yesterday morning and asked them for a price for him for the Cup. They gave me 126s which I quickly boosted to 151s and took. He is currently 51s.</span>



Good shopping TJ. Into $26 with the TAB


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:19pm


MELBOURNE CUP
Melbourne Cup weights: It's now harder for Europeans to win

Cross Counter winning the 2018 Melbourne Cup. Photo: Darryl Sherer

Article Author

Ben Dorries1:27PM, 21 June 2019

After rolling out the Melbourne Cup red carpet for international raiders for many years, Victorian officials are now making it harder for northern hemisphere three-year-olds to win the great race.

Racing Victoria's Executive General Manager of Racing Greg Carpenter has revealed an “extensive and exhaustive review” means northern hemisphere three-year-olds will “automatically be more highly weighted (in the Melbourne Cup) in 2019.”

Joseph O’Brien and Charlie Appleby have hit upon a winning formula with the past two Melbourne Cup winners Rekindling and Cross Counter, both European three-year-olds when they won the famous handicap in 2017 and 2018.

Rekindling carried 51.5kg while last year’s winner Cross Counter carried 51kg.

But Carpenter says those results have forced a rethink.

“We have done an extensive and exhaustive review of the weight-for-age scale in Europe and in Australia,” Carpenter told ABC Radio.

“Victoria Racing Club and the Melbourne Racing Club, with the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups this year, have actually altered the benchmark weight for these northern hemisphere three-year-olds.

“So they will actually automatically be more highly weighted in 2019.

“I need to have a look at the success rate of these horses now and make a judgment on – other than the implementation of a higher weight-for-age weight for them – whether or not their form also needs additional weight.

“We don’t stand still when we provide the handicaps for the Melbourne Cup, it's an evolving art, but certainly on the results of the last two years with Rekindling and Cross Counter there has been a review and a change to the way we treat northern hemisphere three-year-olds in the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups going forward.”

Carpenter told the ABC it could also impact the entire Australian racing industry and they way it treats European three-year-olds.

“We have put forward a proposal to Racing Australia to change the allowances under the Australian Rules Of Racing and the weight-for-age scale so that northern hemisphere three-year-olds are not more generously treated here in Australia than they would be if they were actually racing on the same day over the same distance in Europe,” he said.

Related Topics: Melbourne CupMelbourne Cup 2019 Greg Carpenter

Article Author

Read all News by Ben Dorries

View article with comments

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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:21pm
Can anybody decipher this ?

https://www.racenet.com.au/news/category/melbourne-cup" rel="nofollow -

Melbourne Cup weights: It's now harder for Europeans to win

Ben Dorries

After rolling out the  https://www.racenet.com.au/melbourne-cup" rel="nofollow - Melbourne Cup  red carpet for international raiders for many years, Victorian officials are now making it harder for northern hemisphere three-year-olds to win the great race.

Racing Victoria's Executive General Manager of Racing Greg Carpenter has revealed an “extensive and exhaustive review” means northern hemisphere three-year-olds will “automatically be more highly weighted (in the Melbourne Cup) in 2019.”

Joseph O’Brien and Charlie Appleby have hit upon a winning formula with the past two Melbourne Cup winners  https://www.racenet.com.au/horse/rekindling" rel="nofollow - Rekindling  and  https://www.racenet.com.au/horse/cross-counter" rel="nofollow - Cross Counter , both European three-year-olds when they won the famous handicap in 2017 and 2018.

https://www.racenet.com.au/horse/rekindling" rel="nofollow - Rekindling  carried 51.5kg while last year’s winner Cross Counter carried 51kg.

But Carpenter says those results have forced a rethink.

“We have done an extensive and exhaustive review of the weight-for-age scale in Europe and in Australia,” Carpenter told ABC Radio.

“Victoria Racing Club and the Melbourne Racing Club, with the Melbourne and  https://www.racenet.com.au/tracks/vic/caulfield" rel="nofollow - Caulfield  Cups this year, have actually altered the benchmark weight for these northern hemisphere three-year-olds.

“So they will actually automatically be more highly weighted in 2019.

“I need to have a look at the success rate of these horses now and make a judgment on – other than the implementation of a higher weight-for-age weight for them – whether or not their form also needs additional weight.

“We don’t stand still when we provide the handicaps for the Melbourne Cup, it's an evolving art, but certainly on the results of the last two years with Rekindling and Cross Counter there has been a review and a change to the way we treat northern hemisphere three-year-olds in the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups going forward.”

Carpenter told the ABC it could also impact the entire Australian racing industry and they way it treats European three-year-olds.

“We have put forward a proposal to Racing Australia to change the allowances under the Australian Rules Of Racing and the weight-for-age scale so that northern hemisphere three-year-olds are not more generously treated here in Australia than they would be if they were actually racing on the same day over the same distance in Europe,” he said.


https://www.racenet.com.au/news/melbourne-cup-weights--it-s-now-harder-for-europeans-to-win-20190621" rel="nofollow - https://www.racenet.com.au/news/melbourne-cup-weights--it-s-now-harder-for-europeans-to-win-20190621





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reductio ad absurdum





Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:26pm
https://www.racenet.com.au/news/melbourne-cup-weights--it-s-now-harder-for-europeans-to-win-20190621" rel="nofollow - https://www.racenet.com.au/news/melbourne-cup-weights--it-s-now-harder-for-europeans-to-win-20190621

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Posted By: VOYAGER
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:37pm
It looks to me that Carpenter wants the allowance for the NH 3yo's eliminated, which would automatically place them at the same weight level as our classic winners.

Not sure that is a viable option, but nowhere in there have I seen the option of lowering our 4yo's weights. That is option I would take. Drop our own spring 4yo's down to the same weight as the NH 3yo's and everything should be okay.

I am still trying to work out why we use the wfa scale to work out handicaps in the first place, when the wfa scale is outdated.

But alas that seems to be just my confusion.



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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:55pm
Should an Irish or English Derby winner automatically have more weight than A Victoria or Australian Derby winner who is 6 months older ?

They use the WFA scale purely as a guide. We are admitting our horses are piss weak next to the Europeans if we think a NH 3yo should carry the same weight as a similarly performed SH 3yo.




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reductio ad absurdum






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