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Cardinal Pell

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Topic: Cardinal Pell
Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Subject: Cardinal Pell
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 12:17pm
Is there anything worse than seeing weak men run away from their crimes, and pretend to be sick, we see it time and time again, as soon as they are caught or see their past coming back to smash them, they suddenly feign illness and make sure they are in elsewhere, what a lowlife weak scumbag is this loser Pell...they even rigged the last interview so the questions were all broken up with a poor signal, this poor excuse for a human will stop at nothing to avoid what's coming to him..

why when we all know he is acting and pulling the wool over do we let it happen, why do we allow those who commit crimes to feign illness and get away with such horrors, I always knew this slimebag was no good, Hitchens and co have torn him a new Christmas pudding several times..

Time to get back Pell back here, economy class like the rest of us, and put the dog on trail...

.............................................................................................................................................

Cardinal George Pell’s desire to withhold details of a medical condition that may prevent him giving evidence in person about child abuse within the church “fades into insignificance” next to those victims who have detailed their suffering, a royal commission has heard.

Lawyers representing George Pell, who is currently a senior official within the Vatican, this morning tendered a medical report to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse supporting his application to give evidence by videolink from Rome.

The cardiologist’s report, the entire contents of which have not been made public, states that his “clinical problems ... make it difficult for you to undertake a flight to Australia which would entail a serious risk to your health.”

“One could come by ship, I suppose,” said commission chairman Peter McClellan, although this is unlikely as he is expected to give evidence next month at a public hearing into widespread abuse in the Victorian parish of Ballarat.

“The cardinal’s view is that it is very important that he give his evidence as soon as it may be ... and he certainly wants to avoid the appearance that he’s unwilling to give evidence,” his barrister Alan Myers QC told the commission.

The cardinal has, however, asked that details of his medical condition not be made public, he said.

Cardinal Pell had been due to give evidence in December during royal commission hearings into abuse in both Ballarat and the archdiocese of Melbourne, where he worked as a priest and later as archbishop. He has previously given evidence to the commission in person and via

videolink.

Paul O’Dwyer SC, representing two other witnesses involved in the Melbourne hearing, argued against suppressing the contents of the medical report.

“When you contrast what witness after witness has had to spell out about the most intimate details of their life ... this fades into insignificance,” he said.

“These are very common garden problems for a man of the Cardinal’s age.

“We say the report should be made public, not only as a matter of justice for the victims but also on the question of ordinary fairness,” Mr O’Dwyer said.

Counsel assisting the commission Gail Furness SC said she would need a minimum of two days to question Cardinal Pell.

The inquiry heard that in consideration of the 10 hour time difference between Rome and Sydney, a suggestion would be that the hearing would start early in the morning in Rome and in the afternoon in Sydney.

Former Bishop of Ballarat Ronald Mulkearns is willing and wishes to give evidence to the commission, the hearing also heard.

The commission has previously heard evidence Bishop Mulkearns repeatedly moved pedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale from parish to parish when complaints of abuse were made.

David Grace QC, acting for the bishop, said his client had colon cancer, was in chronic pain and had a life expectancy of months.

He said Bishop Mulkearns wished to give evidence but medical advice recommended he not attend court and suggested a video link be set up from his nursing home or another location.

He said Bishop Mulkearns was concerned that his memory for detail was poor and he may inadvertently and unintentionally mislead the commission.

The commission heard medical advice recommended Bishop Mulkearns only answer questions for one and a half hours before resting for a number of days.

Mr Grace said his client would have difficulty responding to questions if not given sufficient time and material to prepare beforehand.

Chief Commissioner Justice Peter McClellan is expected to make a ruling on both appearances on Monday.


Angry

Edited title out of respect to members since his passing.







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Panspermia.



Replies:
Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 12:19pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtHOmforqxk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtHOmforqxk


Posted By: saintly96
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 12:24pm


Posted By: saintly96
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 12:25pm


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 12:26pm
yeah I've seen it it's good...




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Panspermia.


Posted By: jujuno
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 4:13pm
I'd buy it..

 


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Desert War, Rain Lover, Latin Knight, Hay List, Mustard...my turf heroes...


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 4:28pm
Another hysterical anti-religious rant from fiddles. What a hate-filled little man.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 4:34pm
It's no secret Fiddlesticks and I don't get on, however I've never once thought of him as being odious.  

But which is a word that immediately comes to mind when I think of Pell.


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Another hysterical anti-religious rant from fiddles. What a hate-filled little man.

Fair suck of the sav max, you can't say that. I know plenty of little people who aren't haters.


Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:07pm
      You do get the distinct impression with this fellow he is all about climbing the ladder within the Catholic hierarchy....& he is not prepared to let this "overrated" stuff get in his way. Truth be known it is probably happening all around him in the Vatican anyway.....suggest most of those old fuddy duddies would have been exposed to same during their years of service !

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Refer ALP Election Promises


Posted By: jujuno
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Another hysterical anti-religious rant from fiddles. What a hate-filled little man.

 he is only echoing what most decent people are thinking...

 get off your pulpit, Max...

 


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Desert War, Rain Lover, Latin Knight, Hay List, Mustard...my turf heroes...


Posted By: jujuno
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:28pm
I'd like to see that song played over and over to Pell himself, loudly, with BOSE headphones, so he gets the full impact...

 sick, my aunt Elsie...

 bloody coward...

 Angry  


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Desert War, Rain Lover, Latin Knight, Hay List, Mustard...my turf heroes...


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:28pm
I don't see the necessity of him appearing in person, in this day of technology. To listen to fiddles, he must be a paedophile about to be arrested.


Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:44pm
Max I would think every priest..... from the very top to bottom all around the world.....would be walking under that black cloud ! Especially the old ones !

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Refer ALP Election Promises


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:46pm
He will be punished when he carks it.

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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 5:47pm
This fund is now over $120,000. Whether these people would be able to face him or not is another question though. Process hasn't been explained yet

Child abuse survivors raise $90,000 to see George Pell give evidence in Rome

Crowdfunding target of $55,000 to fly group and counsellors to Italy far exceeded in one day – with push from Tim Minchin’s song

Child sexual abuse survivors and their supporters have raised more than $90,000 to send a small group of their representatives to Rome to witness Cardinal  http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/george-pell" rel="nofollow - After lawyers for Pell tendered medical documents to the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse this month, the commission chair, Justice McClellan, agreed to allow Pell to give evidence via video link from Rome rather than in person.

Child sex abuse survivors seek crowdfunding to fly to Rome for George Pell's evidence

 

Read more

It prompted the radio personality Meshel Laurie and the television presenter Gorgi Coghlan to launch a  https://www.gofundme.com/SendBallaratToRome" rel="nofollow -  to send survivors and a support network of psychologists and counsellors to Rome, where Pell is the Vatican’s financial head.

The target of $55,000 was far exceeded in just one day, with the campaign also supported by Loud Fence, a group for survivors of child sexual abuse in Ballarat religious institutions who are putting together a group of people ready to fly.

One anonymous person donated $10,000 to the cause, while other supporters have donated whatever they could afford, even if only a few dollars.

“After caring for victims of child abuse over the years I have seen the immense damage it has had on their lives,” one donator, Noelene Plummer, wrote. “I hope they can find some healing.”

Another, Marianne Cochrane, wrote, “For those who didn’t survive. For those who can’t speak. For those with the strength to represent.”

Some said they were inspired to donate after hearing the comedian Tim Minchin perform  http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/feb/12/tim-minchin-asks-george-pell-to-come-home-in-expletive-filled-new-song" rel="nofollow -  on Network Ten’s The Project on Tuesday night in which he criticised Pell for not coming to Australia to give evidence and called him a “coward” and a “pompous buffoon”.

The commission is still searching for a venue for Pell to give evidence in. When Pell last appeared before the commission via video link in August 2014 to  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/church-response-to-melbourne-victims-of-child-sexual-abuse-a-betrayal" rel="nofollow -   http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/george-pell-tells-inquiry-he-took-claims-from-victims-groups-with-a-grain-of-salt" rel="nofollow -

Tim Minchin song labelling Cardinal Pell a 'coward' raises money for church abuse victims

 

Read more

The commission told Guardian Australia it was still trying to find an appropriate location. But the commission cannot compel Pell to attend the venue it decides on. Pell would still have to agree to it and to attend.

Pell told the commission in May he would be willing to give evidence. But his health issues, including hypertension, have preventing him from flying to Australia to fulfil this commitment, according to the medical documents tendered to the commission.

Last year the commission heard evidence from a child sex abuse survivor who alleged that Pell had  http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/may/20/cardinal-george-pell-offered-bribe-to-child-sex-abuse-victim-inquiry-told." rel="nofollow -  him to keep quiet about the molestation he suffered. Pell has denied the allegations.

When he appears via video link on 29 February, Pell will face questions about this as well as his alleged role in moving paedophile priests between parishes during his time working as an assistant priest in Ballarat East between 1973 and 1983, a period during which several Catholic priests sexually assaulted young boys in the area. Pell has said he was unaware at the time that the priests he transferred to other parishes were paedophiles.

He will also be further questioned about the Melbourne Response.

The department of foreign affairs and trade confirmed to Guardian Australia it was involved with the search for a venue.

“At the request of the royal commission to the department, the Australian embassy in Rome is assisting the royal commission to identify a suitable venue for the taking of evidence by video-conference,” the department said in a statement.

The embassy itself would not be a possible venue, Guardian Australia understands, because it does not have the necessary facilities.




Posted By: Nocturnal
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:04pm
Steve Price has come out damning the song .. Look up small man disease in the dictionary and there should be a picture of him . Likes the sound of his own voice and chest beating

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The only problem with backing winners ? You never have enough on....


Posted By: jujuno
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Nocturnal Nocturnal wrote:

Steve Price has come out damning the song .. Look up small man disease in the dictionary and there should be a picture of him . Likes the sound of his own voice and chest beating

 how utterly surprising...

 Steve Price is a total joke...the Melbourne version of Hadley/Jones...laughable...

  


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Desert War, Rain Lover, Latin Knight, Hay List, Mustard...my turf heroes...


Posted By: Phazeal
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:23pm
It's great that we have a serious investigation going on into institutional responses to child abuse, but the duration of the saga has caused me several times to consider just how long this sort of stuff has been going on. The only reason we can run this sort of investigation is because Australia is more than 50% aetheist/non-religious, but it wasn't always the way, and there are few countries more secular than us.
 
Priests hardly rate a mention nowadays. They have almost no sway whatsoever in almost any sphere of activity. But that wasn't always the case. I can't fathom how many hundreds of thousands of women, children and other likewise voiceless victims will have been raped, coerced or otherwise fiddled with by a clergy who up until relatively recently were above suspicion of just about everything. It's quite possibly in the millions. Millions of humans molested by clergy over the course of the last thousand years.  It's a petrifying thought.
 
I think the Cardinal's high-profile and questionable absence just bangs another timely nail into the archaic coffin of religion, and we will all be better off when it meanders into the realm of myth and fantasy for the balance of the population.
 
Globally.
 
 


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:32pm
Absolute rubbish, clergy would represent a tiny percentage of child sex abuse perpetrators.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:38pm
Had a friend, a mate actually, who for 30 years organised and ran outward bound type stuff for people in their teens.  Lived a life of chastity, given he was a Brother at Daramalan College in Canberra.

Renounced his vows more than 20 years ago now, simply because he couldn't bear the systemic abuse by brothers within his Church and the legal-based refusal to admit the chronic buggery that existed.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:55pm
I interpret from the prevalence of church child molesters a widespread lack of genuine  belief in the existence of Divine retribution by many clergy. So criminals and hypocrites as well. I have met quite a few priests/ministers who I doubt really believe. You might have more sympathy for offenders who could not control their unruly impulses, but were still believers.


Posted By: jujuno
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Absolute rubbish, clergy would represent a tiny percentage of child sex abuse perpetrators.

 you're flogging a dead horse, Max...

 your  pulpit is crumbling...
 


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Desert War, Rain Lover, Latin Knight, Hay List, Mustard...my turf heroes...


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I interpret from the prevalence of church child molesters a widespread lack of genuine  belief in the existence of Divine retribution by many clergy. So criminals and hypocrites as well. I have met quite a few priests/ministers who I doubt really believe. You might have more sympathy for offenders who could not control their unruly impulses, but were still believers.




Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 7:02pm
So are you suggesting society should differentiate between Priestly offenders who (a) were true believers who couldn't control their unruly impulses, and (b) those who weren't true believers who similarly couldn't control their unruly impulses?

In no more than 25 words...


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

So are you suggesting society should differentiate between Priestly offenders who (a) were true believers who couldn't control their unruly impulses, and (b) those who weren't true believers who similarly couldn't control their unruly impulses?

In no more than 25 words...
I certainly do, the suspicion arises that perpetrators who never believed, only entered the profession because it seemed to offer ready access to victims. Malice aforethought. Like scout masters who had no interest in bush craft, but wanted easy access to boys to molest.


Posted By: Phazeal
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

(Absolute rubbish), clergy would represent a tiny percentage of child sex abuse perpetrators.
 
I can't think of a technical reason why this comment and mine can't be simultaneously correct, so calling my observations absolute rubbish seems a bit harsh.
 
Are you suggesting that (if it were the case) because clergy haven't sexually molested as many children as the broader population in nominal terms that the community should view their betrayal through a more sympathetic lens? 
 
In addition;
 
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I certainly do, the suspicion arises that perpetrators who never believed, only entered the profession because it seemed to offer ready access to victims. Malice aforethought
 
That can stand for the first incidence of sexual abuse, but surely those clergy who allegedly 'believe' would, after digesting their initial sexual encounter with a minor and completing their ritual of repentence, then be considered duly warned by their rulebook not to $^&* small children on general principle?


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 7:55pm

I think there is a strong clue to the phenomenon of clerical abuse in that most of it seems to be directed at boys. There is a well known psychological progression in sexual awakening that moves from the same (self), to the similar (others of the same sex), to finally, the opposite, complementary sex. In this context, fixation on boys is a matter of arrested development. Many pre-pubescent boys in catholic schools back in the day vowed to become priests, which was really a way of being popular with teachers/priests, but matured out of it in most cases. Those that remain lodged in it, didn't shake off the childish impulse of pleasing the heirarchy,  took up the priesthood, and carried into it their other immature impulses.



Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I think there is a strong clue to the phenomenon of clerical abuse in that most of it seems to be directed at boys. There is a well known psychological progression in sexual awakening that moves from the same (self), to the similar (others of the same sex), to finally, the opposite, complementary sex. In this context, fixation on boys is a matter of arrested development. Many pre-pubescent boys in catholic schools back in the day vowed to become priests, which was really a way of being popular with teachers/priests, but matured out of it in most cases. Those that remain lodged in it, didn't shake off the childish impulse of pleasing the heirarchy,  took up the priesthood, and carried into it their other immature impulses.

 
 
What in the actual f.........


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 8:05pm

Were you an altar boy, or an altered boy, sub ? (sorry to sound like maccamax)



Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by Phazeal Phazeal wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

(Absolute rubbish), clergy would represent a tiny percentage of child sex abuse perpetrators.
 
I can't think of a technical reason why this comment and mine can't be simultaneously correct, so calling my observations absolute rubbish seems a bit harsh.
 
Are you suggesting that (if it were the case) because clergy haven't sexually molested as many children as the broader population in nominal terms that the community should view their betrayal through a more sympathetic lens? 
 
In addition;
 
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I certainly do, the suspicion arises that perpetrators who never believed, only entered the profession because it seemed to offer ready access to victims. Malice aforethought
 
That can stand for the first incidence of sexual abuse, but surely those clergy who allegedly 'believe' would, after digesting their initial sexual encounter with a minor and completing their ritual of repentence, then be considered duly warned by their rulebook not to $^&* small children on general principle?
It suits a lot of people (atheists) to believe the clergy is crawling with paedophiles. That they are the main perpetrators of such stuff. I don't believe it, it is as common as muck, everywhere. It just confirms the prejudice that atheism is "right", the church is corrupt, therefore religiosity is void. I know they are wrong. Atheism is a form of super-delusionism, where people fancy themselves clever enough to figure out there is no God. Not very clever at all. The words I love to hear on the subject are "I don't know", and paedophilia in the clergy has no bearing on the matter. Whatsoever.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 8:51pm
What a load of garbage Max. No atheist derives any pleasure from priests being paedohpiles. Just anger. And even worse is the blatant cover up to protect the church and its assets.
 
The sheer ridiculousness of your atheists are super deluded is one of the most hypocritical things you can say. You believe in something that cannot be proven, as do I. Where is the difference in our delusion??


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:02pm
Not garbage at all. It is quite clear that people want their atheistic prejudices confirmed, and vile happenings in the church suits the agenda to a tee, they think. I see no relevance at all. But atheists are that dumb. I would never enter a relationship with one. It is just arrogance writ incredibly large.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:09pm
You ever thought about how one might have obtained that prejudice Max? Maybe from hearing about repeated abuse from priests and cover ups over decades?? Makes one start to believe less in a higher being when they would allow things like that to happen in their name......


Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:11pm
Gee Max.....you & I are miles apart on this one.

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Refer ALP Election Promises


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

What a load of garbage Max. No atheist derives any pleasure from priests being paedohpiles. Just anger. And even worse is the blatant cover up to protect the church and its assets.
 
The sheer ridiculousness of your atheists are super deluded is one of the most hypocritical things you can say. You believe in something that cannot be proven, as do I. Where is the difference in our delusion??
Been proven to me, many, many times. But never at my instigation. We are not the doers. "Don't call us, we'll call you". If you don't hear, it is because you are a scoffer.


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:15pm
Nobody would need to think anything at all about clergy if they followed their own teachings and commandments, and their superiors didn't shield their crimes from scrutiny. It isn't that difficult to understand that you shouldn't waggle your willies at little boys, and there wouldn't be a Royal Commission if this abomination wasn't happening on a large scale. If it was just an atheist conspiracy the RC would have been wrapped up long ago, rather than going on for this extended period with additional funding.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

What a load of garbage Max. No atheist derives any pleasure from priests being paedohpiles. Just anger. And even worse is the blatant cover up to protect the church and its assets.
 
The sheer ridiculousness of your atheists are super deluded is one of the most hypocritical things you can say. You believe in something that cannot be proven, as do I. Where is the difference in our delusion??
Been proven to me, many, many times. But never at my instigation. We are not the doers. "Don't call us, we'll call you". If you don't hear, it is because you are a scoffer.
 
 
Sorry Max, that is arrogance or delusion, take your pick, that you believe religion has been proven.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 9:22pm
Nope, the scoffer is always shut out, therefore you will never see the proof to all and sundry. At least not in this life. Atheism is the ultimate conceit. I never suffered from it, neither did I suffer from blind belief. Both are ridiculous. The proofs I have witnessed surprises me in only one way, in that I was utterly unmoved by it. Not shocked, not pleased, nothing. Go figure.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2016 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

Nobody would need to think anything at all about clergy if they followed their own teachings and commandments, and their superiors didn't shield their crimes from scrutiny. It isn't that difficult to understand that you shouldn't waggle your willies at little boys, and there wouldn't be a Royal Commission if this abomination wasn't happening on a large scale. If it was just an atheist conspiracy the RC would have been wrapped up long ago, rather than going on for this extended period with additional funding.
I am not implying it is an atheist conspiracy at all. I am not defending anything of a criminal nature that the bureaucracy of the churches has acted to cover up. But I have no doubt this matter has been hijacked to promote "popular" atheism, which I regard as a psychological disorder. You have to be mad to think yourself that clever, that you can rule out " God ", Totally arrogant. Totally dumb. And nothing to do with paedophilia. The great shame is that many very foolish people took their complaints to the church, instead of to the police. Bureaucracies cover up their sins, that is what the churches did. The bureaucrat acts to preserve the organization, first and foremost.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:31am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

Nobody would need to think anything at all about clergy if they followed their own teachings and commandments, and their superiors didn't shield their crimes from scrutiny. It isn't that difficult to understand that you shouldn't waggle your willies at little boys, and there wouldn't be a Royal Commission if this abomination wasn't happening on a large scale. If it was just an atheist conspiracy the RC would have been wrapped up long ago, rather than going on for this extended period with additional funding.
I am not implying it is an atheist conspiracy at all. I am not defending anything of a criminal nature that the bureaucracy of the churches has acted to cover up. But I have no doubt this matter has been hijacked to promote "popular" atheism, which I regard as a psychological disorder. You have to be mad to think yourself that clever, that you can rule out " God ", Totally arrogant. Totally dumb. And nothing to do with paedophilia. The great shame is that many very foolish people took their complaints to the church, instead of to the police. Bureaucracies cover up their sins, that is what the churches did. The bureaucrat acts to preserve the organization, first and foremost.


you are so much smarter than us to work it all out max...

oh wait...what did you say about Athiests now..?

please..

first let us define God then we can move on to whether it exists or not...






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Panspermia.


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 7:54am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

Nobody would need to think anything at all about clergy if they followed their own teachings and commandments, and their superiors didn't shield their crimes from scrutiny. It isn't that difficult to understand that you shouldn't waggle your willies at little boys, and there wouldn't be a Royal Commission if this abomination wasn't happening on a large scale. If it was just an atheist conspiracy the RC would have been wrapped up long ago, rather than going on for this extended period with additional funding.
I am not implying it is an atheist conspiracy at all. I am not defending anything of a criminal nature that the bureaucracy of the churches has acted to cover up. But I have no doubt this matter has been hijacked to promote "popular" atheism, which I regard as a psychological disorder. You have to be mad to think yourself that clever, that you can rule out " God ", Totally arrogant. Totally dumb. And nothing to do with paedophilia. The great shame is that many very foolish people took their complaints to the church, instead of to the police. Bureaucracies cover up their sins, that is what the churches did. The bureaucrat acts to preserve the organization, first and foremost.

Is unquestioning faith or Feidism also a psychological disorder? 

Max, I find listening to you 'hijack theory'  that I am hearing echoes of the Unions and their supporters, and Liberal supporters in NSW blaming the Trade Union Royal Commission and the ICAC in NSW respectively for getting caught misbehaving, calling them witch-hunts. 

Like those registered groups and organisations, the faith institutions that place themselves aloft and profit handsomely from guiding our moral behavior and our eternal souls, must be held to higher standards than ordinary folk. Doing so is not an agenda. Aside from that the RC is not only investigating the Catholic Church, it is investigating many other institutions who had children under their care.


Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 8:31am
I think Max's view are typical of many out age....totally mixed up,,,,,logic being contaminated with religious clap trap instilled at all levels when growing up . The Catholics have always been very good at it....just a step behind the Muso's

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Refer ALP Election Promises


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:17am
I'm not mixed up at all, I hold no brief for the church or any other organization that harbours and protects criminals. But I reiterate what I have said, that ratbag atheists have fastened on to such wrong-doing as support for their idea that church teachings are therefore "wrong", and atheism is "right", because they have done the wrong thing with child abuse cases. There is simply no connection between the two. Atheism is the ultimate poison, catering to utter fools.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:26am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I'm not mixed up at all, I hold no brief for the church or any other organization that harbours and protects criminals. But I reiterate what I have said, that ratbag atheists have fastened on to such wrong-doing as support for their idea that church teachings are therefore "wrong", and atheism is "right", because they have done the wrong thing with child abuse cases. There is simply no connection between the two. Atheism is the ultimate poison, catering to utter fools.
 
 
I thought the church taught you not to hate?? Why so angry Max?? Surely you should respect everyone's right to an opinion and to form their own beliefs?
 
 


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:34am
Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I'm not mixed up at all, I hold no brief for the church or any other organization that harbours and protects criminals. But I reiterate what I have said, that ratbag atheists have fastened on to such wrong-doing as support for their idea that church teachings are therefore "wrong", and atheism is "right", because they have done the wrong thing with child abuse cases. There is simply no connection between the two. Atheism is the ultimate poison, catering to utter fools.
 
 
I thought the church taught you not to hate?? Why so angry Max?? Surely you should respect everyone's right to an opinion and to form their own beliefs?
 
 
Quit associating me with churches, I have nothing to do with them. I am entirely comfortable with wanting nothing to do with people who proudly call themselves atheists. They are the last word in arrogance and stupidity, why would I respect someone that deems themselves fit to declare God non-existent ?


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:37am
What about theists? 


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

What about theists? 
I take no notice of people who expound on what God may be. If you could describe or delineate God, you would be God ! But the "other realm" is a certainty, I have had that proven to me. Therefore I regard people like Hawking and dawkins who insist this life is the "end of the line", as frauds pretending non-existent knowledge. It is a poor reflection on the world of science that they have been virtually silent in the face of this unscientific clap-trap, especially Hawking's. Yes, he is a little pr1ck stuck in a wheelchair, let's cut him some slack. Pig's rse to that ! He says the laws of nature allow the universe to arise spontaneously. So far king what ? What "allows" the laws of physics to exist ? It is a matter of psychological interest that so many lap this rubbish up.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:07am
So anyone that has a different opinion to you Max is just a little prick in a wheelchair.......classy stuff......


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:09am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

What about theists? 
I take no notice of people who expound on what God may be. If you could describe or delineate God, you would be God ! But the "other realm" is a certainty, I have had that proven to me. Therefore I regard people like Hawking and dawkins who insist this life is the "end of the line", as frauds pretending non-existent knowledge. It is a poor reflection on the world of science that they have been virtually silent in the face of this unscientific clap-trap, especially Hawking's. Yes, he is a little pr1ck stuck in a wheelchair, let's cut him some slack. Pig's rse to that ! He says the laws of nature allow the universe to arise spontaneously. So far king what ? What "allows" the laws of physics to exist ? It is a matter of psychological interest that so many lap this rubbish up.
 
 
So you want to call others as arrogant or deluded, yet you say with 100 percent surety that what you experienced was the other realm???? How can you possibly be sure?


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:10am
He is using his authority as a scientist to promote atheism. The first rule of science is that arguments from authority are worthless. Hawking's pronouncements in support of atheism are utterly fraudulent, and a reflection of his inner psychological shortcomings, nothing else.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:24am
Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

What about theists? 
I take no notice of people who expound on what God may be. If you could describe or delineate God, you would be God ! But the "other realm" is a certainty, I have had that proven to me. Therefore I regard people like Hawking and dawkins who insist this life is the "end of the line", as frauds pretending non-existent knowledge. It is a poor reflection on the world of science that they have been virtually silent in the face of this unscientific clap-trap, especially Hawking's. Yes, he is a little pr1ck stuck in a wheelchair, let's cut him some slack. Pig's rse to that ! He says the laws of nature allow the universe to arise spontaneously. So far king what ? What "allows" the laws of physics to exist ? It is a matter of psychological interest that so many lap this rubbish up.
 
 
So you want to call others as arrogant or deluded, yet you say with 100 percent surety that what you experienced was the other realm???? How can you possibly be sure?
  What I have witnessed left me with nowhere else to go, sub. I manfully tried to find the "rational" explanations, but it was overwhelmed by the evidence. This world is very different to what most people imagine.I don't know that I am comforted by that knowledge, either. The world is full of people that are supremely confident they know I'm wrong. I can only say, stay in a state of doubt, it is the only scientific thing to do !


Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:31am
Just what gods are we talking about Max....there are literally 100's of them around the world both present & past. Just depends where you were born. I mean if you were born in Africa fair chance you would see Abassi as the creator....& up in some obscure area in New Guinea a bloody volcano. I mean how is any of that even partially logical...& to further suggest that the Universe is all about us is la la stuff. Why would anyone create something so huge for our motley lot ?

-------------
Refer ALP Election Promises


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:40am
I am aware of those arguments, 1-1, I know nothing about God or Gods, but I'm certain death is not necessarily the end. And I know nought about how that can be.


Posted By: Phazeal
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:21am
Atheism doesn't preclude the existence of some sort of life after death. It just precludes its connection with a deity :)


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Phazeal Phazeal wrote:

Atheism doesn't preclude the existence of some sort of life after death. It just precludes its connection with a deity :)
On what reasonable basis can that opinion be arrived at ? So far as I am concerned, if people can persist beyond death, I am utterly unable to preclude anything with any confidence.


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:44am
Buddhists don't believe in an omnipotent God and say that you are stuck in Samsara, the endless cycle of birth death and reincarnation until you become enlightened. They say that religion is for people who live in fear. Gautama stated in his teachings that  "Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines". 



Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 12:02pm
I don't dismiss re-incarnation. Even the great Carl Sagan had an open mind about it, having studied a dosier of cases supplied to him by Arthur C. Clarke, which he concluded was either a true record, or the most elaborate hoax ever conceived.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

What about theists? 
I take no notice of people who expound on what God may be. If you could describe or delineate God, you would be God ! But the "other realm" is a certainty, I have had that proven to me. Therefore I regard people like Hawking and dawkins who insist this life is the "end of the line", as frauds pretending non-existent knowledge. It is a poor reflection on the world of science that they have been virtually silent in the face of this unscientific clap-trap, especially Hawking's. Yes, he is a little pr1ck stuck in a wheelchair, let's cut him some slack. Pig's rse to that ! He says the laws of nature allow the universe to arise spontaneously. So far king what ? What "allows" the laws of physics to exist ? It is a matter of psychological interest that so many lap this rubbish up.
 
 
So you want to call others as arrogant or deluded, yet you say with 100 percent surety that what you experienced was the other realm???? How can you possibly be sure?
  What I have witnessed left me with nowhere else to go, sub. I manfully tried to find the "rational" explanations, but it was overwhelmed by the evidence. This world is very different to what most people imagine.I don't know that I am comforted by that knowledge, either. The world is full of people that are supremely confident they know I'm wrong. I can only say, stay in a state of doubt, it is the only scientific thing to do !


So you think you saw a ghost, a ghost of your mother to be exact...and that makes those who don't believe in God all fools...that's some fairly incredible connecting of dots..???

Confused







-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Phazeal Phazeal wrote:

Atheism doesn't preclude the existence of some sort of life after death. It just precludes its connection with a deity :)


and that's pretty much it, perhaps max could go back to the opening post of thread and find anything remotely related to religion or God bashing...??

max appears to have used this thread about Pell as some sort of vehicle to once again pontificate his very own exclusive knowledge on there might be god and we are fools for not believing the same..Confused

come home cardinal Pell....face the music George..Ouch


-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I am aware of those arguments, 1-1, I know nothing about God or Gods, but I'm certain death is not necessarily the end. And I know nought about how that can be.


just what exactly has an 'afterlife' got to to with God or not believing in God...surely they can be exclusive of each other..?


-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I am aware of those arguments, 1-1, I know nothing about God or Gods, but I'm certain death is not necessarily the end. And I know nought about how that can be.


just what exactly has an 'afterlife' got to to with God or not believing in God...surely they can be exclusive of each other..?
I don't know, what you say may be right.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

What about theists? 
I take no notice of people who expound on what God may be. If you could describe or delineate God, you would be God ! But the "other realm" is a certainty, I have had that proven to me. Therefore I regard people like Hawking and dawkins who insist this life is the "end of the line", as frauds pretending non-existent knowledge. It is a poor reflection on the world of science that they have been virtually silent in the face of this unscientific clap-trap, especially Hawking's. Yes, he is a little pr1ck stuck in a wheelchair, let's cut him some slack. Pig's rse to that ! He says the laws of nature allow the universe to arise spontaneously. So far king what ? What "allows" the laws of physics to exist ? It is a matter of psychological interest that so many lap this rubbish up.
 
 
So you want to call others as arrogant or deluded, yet you say with 100 percent surety that what you experienced was the other realm???? How can you possibly be sure?
  What I have witnessed left me with nowhere else to go, sub. I manfully tried to find the "rational" explanations, but it was overwhelmed by the evidence. This world is very different to what most people imagine.I don't know that I am comforted by that knowledge, either. The world is full of people that are supremely confident they know I'm wrong. I can only say, stay in a state of doubt, it is the only scientific thing to do !


So you think you saw a ghost, a ghost of your mother to be exact...and that makes those who don't believe in God all fools...that's some fairly incredible connecting of dots..???

Confused





I've never seen any ghosts.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 2:15pm
I am not a prude but can we get the name of this thread changed. Its not very becoming of the forum if you ask me.

Yes I know nobody asked me.........


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 4:17pm
Why. Is lowlife scumbag  too nice?


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 4:26pm
The reason why is in my post.

-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I've never seen any ghosts.


So explain then what this 'event' was that convinced you there is life after death, and please if you can tell us why it's connected to Atheism being wrong...




-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I've never seen any ghosts.


So explain then what this 'event' was that convinced you there is life after death, and please if you can tell us why it's connected to Atheism being wrong...


There's no afterlife in atheism, one could reject theism and still believe in an afterlife though.


Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 6:45pm
ABBOTT,ABETZ and BERNARDI have donated 5k each,for the cause.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I've never seen any ghosts.


So explain then what this 'event' was that convinced you there is life after death, and please if you can tell us why it's connected to Atheism being wrong...


Too many to mention, fiddles. Could be upwards of a hundred. Some repeated many times, and I do not understand the meaning of. Some of it would be classed perhaps as "poltergeist" activity. I also have to conclude that our thoughts are not private, nor necessarily even our own.


Posted By: stayer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 7:30pm
Why has this thread turned into an argument about religion vs atheism? Maybe because that's what the whole pell scapegoating is really about for the likes of tim minchin? If he cared about the victims and justice being done he wouldn't want any attention seeking stunt from an ignorant lollipop interfering with the process. He's just muddied the water.

I can tell you from experience that yes, pell has a pretty off-putting superiority complex and a detachment from people he considers below his intellect etc, which has kept him living in a bubble for years. It's quite likely that he is innocent of all the accusations being thrown at him. It's a (big) circle of sicko priests who live double lives that should be being investigated, rather than just scapegoating pell. Even the victims have said that.

I can also tell you FWIW that he has been very sick for months, not to mention the stress he is under from all of this. I'm not sure what coming to oz would achieve any way? He can give evidence from rome, and probably more effectively.

Pell is a bit of a twit, but the real "scumbags" are not being called out.

Just my 2 cents.



Posted By: jujuno
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 7:46pm
association and covering up paedophilia is no different to being a perpetrator as far as I'm concerned...

 Pell deserves everything being slung at him...

 as does Hollingworth...who, at least, turned up...

  


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Desert War, Rain Lover, Latin Knight, Hay List, Mustard...my turf heroes...


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by stayer stayer wrote:

Why has this thread turned into an argument about religion vs atheism? Maybe because that's what the whole pell scapegoating is really about for the likes of tim minchin? If he cared about the victims and justice being done he wouldn't want any attention seeking stunt from an ignorant lollipop interfering with the process. He's just muddied the water.

I can tell you from experience that yes, pell has a pretty off-putting superiority complex and a detachment from people he considers below his intellect etc, which has kept him living in a bubble for years. It's quite likely that he is innocent of all the accusations being thrown at him. It's a (big) circle of sicko priests who live double lives that should be being investigated, rather than just scapegoating pell. Even the victims have said that.

I can also tell you FWIW that he has been very sick for months, not to mention the stress he is under from all of this. I'm not sure what coming to oz would achieve any way? He can give evidence from rome, and probably more effectively.

Pell is a bit of a twit, but the real "scumbags" are not being called out.

Just my 2 cents.

 
 
Song is about raising money for the victims to asssit in their cases Stayer and to fly them to Rome. He's not making a cent.


Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 8:05pm
Meshel Laurie(principally) and Gorgi Coghlan started a campaign in Ballaratt last week, to raise funds to help send a group of 15 victims to London who wanted  to be present at Pell's evidence so that he didn't not have the pressure of victims facing him. Minchin is a friend of Lauries and offered to throw something together quickly if it would help, he being a long time supporter of the victims and the commission. All proceeds go to the GoFundMe program.  


Posted By: stayer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 8:50pm
Yeah I know that but really, was it the right way to raise money? Will it help or muddy the waters? Will it make it look like pell is a victim of a bandwagon/ mob mentality etc, rather than letting things run their course the right way?

I can understand the victims wanting to be present when he testifies, and I like the idea of using the money to build some kind of healing centre in ballarat, which certainly has an ugly past.

Just a couple of points -
I remember reading the testimony of a retired priest who was asked if pell had told him "X has been rooting boys again," and, apart from saying that he'd never concelebrated a mass with pell (as the person making the claim said), he said that pell simply didn't speak that way and that he "never had a great relationship with pell" and they only met on social occasions. That's what I was saying above - pell is so aloof that it's quite possible he was living in a bubble and was told nothing. So all the "associating with and covering up" stuff might not be true. Can you see what I mean?
Also, it seems to have been glossed over that ridsdale said "I have never said that he bribed me."

I really do think pell is being scapegoated, and a lot of creeps who know what really went on are probably laughing.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I've never seen any ghosts.


So explain then what this 'event' was that convinced you there is life after death, and please if you can tell us why it's connected to Atheism being wrong...


Too many to mention, fiddles. Could be upwards of a hundred. Some repeated many times, and I do not understand the meaning of. Some of it would be classed perhaps as "poltergeist" activity. I also have to conclude that our thoughts are not private, nor necessarily even our own.

You're starting to sound like Hollywood now with all this obtuse nonsense, just come out with it, what have you experienced and give the details, we are all adults here, why the cryptic charade..?


-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I've never seen any ghosts.


So explain then what this 'event' was that convinced you there is life after death, and please if you can tell us why it's connected to Atheism being wrong...


Too many to mention, fiddles. Could be upwards of a hundred. Some repeated many times, and I do not understand the meaning of. Some of it would be classed perhaps as "poltergeist" activity. I also have to conclude that our thoughts are not private, nor necessarily even our own.

You're starting to sound like Hollywood now with all this obtuse nonsense, just come out with it, what have you experienced and give the details, we are all adults here, why the cryptic charade..?
A puzzling one that has occurred numerous times is the appearance of match-sticks, usually but not always overnight, sometimes in precise patterns, and sometimes split lengthwise. Usually when I am the only one in the house, but not always. Stops for a time then recurs. Something similar has happened in the home of a close relative. Even after she carefully hid the (distinctive) matches in a linen cupboard, thinking she was being pranked. I have wracked my brain to no result, as to what the message is.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:54pm
message from who..??


-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: jujuno
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 9:58pm
sounds more like aliens..

 


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Desert War, Rain Lover, Latin Knight, Hay List, Mustard...my turf heroes...


Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:03pm
Didn't Houdini smoke ?

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Refer ALP Election Promises


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 10:13pm
I can't be sure, fiddles, but the first occurrence was within days of my mother's death. Still continues. In a great variety of manifestations. One one occasion a set of casement windows shook and rattled so violently it seemed certain it must break the glass, I advanced toward the window to see what the hell was there, it stopped abruptly and the curtains swayed noticeably, parallel to the wall. But the windows were intact, and closed. No wind. Inexplicable. This was repeated some months later, with the other set of windows, in the same room. The curtains swayed along the wall, the window was closed. I don't understand the message there either, but in many cases the message has been clear. One night before I had an appointment to have a wisdom tooth extracted, the ache was keeping me awake, half asleep I reached for some aspirin, a smoke alarm in the room then sounded before I could swallow them. The meassage was clear to me, do not take the aspirin ! The pulling of the tooth was problematic, and the bleeding was heavy. It settled down, but started bleeding again at night. I was about to go to hospital I was bleeding so much, when it finally abated. Aspirin is a blood thinner, I'd have finished in hospital for sure if I'd taken the aspirin. Electronic devices emitting their distinctive sounds at uncanny moments, sometimes when not even switched on or connected to power, has occurred many times. Usually when talking to others, and the deceased is mentioned !


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I can't be sure, fiddles, but the first occurrence was within days of my mother's death. Still continues. In a great variety of manifestations. One one occasion a set of casement windows shook and rattled so violently it seemed certain it must break the glass, I advanced toward the window to see what the hell was there, it stopped abruptly and the curtains swayed noticeably, parallel to the wall. But the windows were intact, and closed. No wind. Inexplicable. This was repeated some months later, with the other set of windows, in the same room. The curtains swayed along the wall, the window was closed. I don't understand the message there either, but in many cases the message has been clear. One night before I had an appointment to have a wisdom tooth extracted, the ache was keeping me awake, half asleep I reached for some aspirin, a smoke alarm in the room then sounded before I could swallow them. The meassage was clear to me, do not take the aspirin ! The pulling of the tooth was problematic, and the bleeding was heavy. It settled down, but started bleeding again at night. I was about to go to hospital I was bleeding so much, when it finally abated. Aspirin is a blood thinner, I'd have finished in hospital for sure if I'd taken the aspirin. Electronic devices emitting their distinctive sounds at uncanny moments, sometimes when not even switched on or connected to power, has occurred many times. Usually when talking to others, and the deceased is mentioned !


All probably readily explainable imo...


Juno is closer to the mark if you want to talk about other entities..





-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I can't be sure, fiddles, but the first occurrence was within days of my mother's death. Still continues. In a great variety of manifestations. One one occasion a set of casement windows shook and rattled so violently it seemed certain it must break the glass, I advanced toward the window to see what the hell was there, it stopped abruptly and the curtains swayed noticeably, parallel to the wall. But the windows were intact, and closed. No wind. Inexplicable. This was repeated some months later, with the other set of windows, in the same room. The curtains swayed along the wall, the window was closed. I don't understand the message there either, but in many cases the message has been clear. One night before I had an appointment to have a wisdom tooth extracted, the ache was keeping me awake, half asleep I reached for some aspirin, a smoke alarm in the room then sounded before I could swallow them. The meassage was clear to me, do not take the aspirin ! The pulling of the tooth was problematic, and the bleeding was heavy. It settled down, but started bleeding again at night. I was about to go to hospital I was bleeding so much, when it finally abated. Aspirin is a blood thinner, I'd have finished in hospital for sure if I'd taken the aspirin. Electronic devices emitting their distinctive sounds at uncanny moments, sometimes when not even switched on or connected to power, has occurred many times. Usually when talking to others, and the deceased is mentioned !


All probably readily explainable imo...


Juno is closer to the mark if you want to talk about other entities..



Not a chance. That is a small sample of the total, some of it is just mind bending, to the extent that I have even come to doubt that our thoughts originate from within. We are not the doers.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:28pm
Max you do realize some atheists believe in ghosts and souls?


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:30pm
This ghost appears to have God-like prescience.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:33pm
And unlike ghosts, perhaps, appears unconstrained by location, inexplicable occurrences having occurred to others of the family, hundred of kilometres away.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2016 at 11:35pm
Sorry Max, thats not proof of a god.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 12:36am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

This ghost appears to have God-like prescience.


Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I've never seen any ghosts.



Confused





-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 9:50am
Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

Sorry Max, thats not proof of a god.
It is proof to me of the existence of the 'beyond', which is front and centre of all the major religions. I am not in the business of "proving" Gods. Though I'm pretty confident it is a fool's game to think it even possible. And the game of asserting (like Hawking and Dawkins) that there is no God, rank fraudulence.


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

This ghost appears to have God-like prescience.


Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I've never seen any ghosts.



Confused



No, never seen any wispy white ghosts.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 10:47am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

Sorry Max, thats not proof of a god.
It is proof to me of the existence of the 'beyond', which is front and centre of all the major religions. I am not in the business of "proving" Gods. Though I'm pretty confident it is a fool's game to think it even possible. And the game of asserting (like Hawking and Dawkins) that there is no God, rank fraudulence.


Hawking and Dawkins are scientists, they simply do not believe that God exists in the form that religions claim, now I guarantee you they would be happy to believe there might be other life in the universe, Aliens if you will, so why can't two scientists believe in other worldly life but not believe in the God that most religions believe in...?? there is distinct difference between what religion calls god and other lifeforms from other worlds..

You seem over enthusiastic to claim Hawking and Dawkins as fools yet at the same time you yourself make a claim that cannot be tested as superior tho theirs..??

have you ever thought that your 'strange' interactions are possibly a mental disorder..?






-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 10:53am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

Originally posted by subastral subastral wrote:

Sorry Max, thats not proof of a god.
It is proof to me of the existence of the 'beyond', which is front and centre of all the major religions. I am not in the business of "proving" Gods. Though I'm pretty confident it is a fool's game to think it even possible. And the game of asserting (like Hawking and Dawkins) that there is no God, rank fraudulence.


As far as testing what all religion calls God they have yet to be disproved...

speaking to a pretend person by yourself is called insanity, when it's done in a group it's called religion...

I have no problem with what Hawking and Dawkins have said, I'd be worried if that hadn't taken the line they have, at least they are true to their reasoning's, whereas religion is super fluid and likes to credit everything happening to God, what a terribly weak way to cop out as human..


-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: Sworn Revenge
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:03am
Actually Fiddles they credit everything GOOD that happens is God's work yet everything BAD is simple human frailty and folly. That is delusional.

Good on Pacquiao for sticking to his catholic beliefs but as a Phillipino shouldn't he be more put out that his God lets typhoons cause misery for his people year in year out rather than two same sex people engaging in back door action and bushy bowl munching?


Posted By: Ecair Issoire
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:08am
if god came down + proved that he/she existed
what would be required for everyone to be satisfied that it wasn't a hoax etc?
--
 
what would be the result of that if proven beyond any doubt?
 
i presume everyone would live in the way god wanted us to, if they knew 100% he/she was legit..
that follows that there'd be no point with this existence at all..so that god proving his/her existence
would basically be the end of life as we know it..armageddon, is that what the non believers want?
 


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:09am
max a tip for you, if you want to enter the other world intentionally may I suggest DMT as it's the quickest fastest route to that place...



as a veteran of some 300 odd experiences in my hey day I can attest that there is indeed something else going on around us, and I'm fully aware of what it might be, and I can with 99.9% accuracy claim it's nothing like what religion claims it to be...

We live in one particular narrow dimension with very narrow hearing and visual bands, but I can assure you there are many many more areas where life exists outside of what we experience...

DMT is in our brains in the Pineal gland, science has yet to understand what it's doing there, and why it's there, taking it is completely non toxic, it shatters this world and you get a free ride and glimpse for a few minutes of what else is out there...perhaps your disorder is somehow nothing more than a small chemical imbalance..

 


-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Ecair Issoire Ecair Issoire wrote:

if god came down + proved that he/she existed
what would be required for everyone to be satisfied that it wasn't a hoax etc?
--
 
what would be the result of that if proven beyond any doubt?
 
i presume everyone would live in the way god wanted us to, if they knew 100% he/she was legit..
that follows that there'd be no point with this existence at all..so that god proving his/her existence
would basically be the end of life as we know it..armageddon, is that what the non believers want?
 
 
He forms a national racing body
Makes Carlton good
I could go on
 
 


Posted By: max manewer
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:32am
My "disorder", fiddles ? I just go with the evidence. Like a good scientist would. Wink


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Ecair Issoire Ecair Issoire wrote:

if god came down + proved that he/she existed
what would be required for everyone to be satisfied that it wasn't a hoax etc?
--
 
what would be the result of that if proven beyond any doubt?
 
i presume everyone would live in the way god wanted us to, if they knew 100% he/she was legit..
that follows that there'd be no point with this existence at all..so that god proving his/her existence
would basically be the end of life as we know it..armageddon, is that what the non believers want?
 
 
 
Rather large presumption to make mate. If anything, I would be even angrier if this dude decided to make himself appear now, when hes let so much sh.t happen to the world that he could have prevented in his name.
Non believers are only interested in making good of this life Ecair. The world would be a much better place if people focussed on that rather than an obsession to get into the next one.
The overwhelming majority of atheists aren't interested in anything other than being good people. This shouldn't have to come from a religion.
 


Posted By: Fiddlesticks
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:38am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

My "disorder", fiddles ? I just go with the evidence. Like a good scientist would. Wink


What does the 'good scientist ' in you say about DMT..??

I recommend you watch the video I posted and when you have time what the whole documentary 'DMT the Spirit molecule'.

This was proper clinical scientific trails of this compound, if you want to talk about God or afterlife then I'll happily accommodate the notion a chemical found in our body is a clue..

 




-------------
Panspermia.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 11:45am
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