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Phoenix Thoroughbreds-gone!

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Red Hare View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 6:14pm
Wouldn't worry about it SC. The moment has passed.

It was just a Simpson's-themed jibe at the finance industry.
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Second Chance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 6:25pm
Cheers mate.  

ps: seen the total number of overs paid by Fung (Aquis), Fung/Phoenix and Annabel Neasham (read Fung/Aquis) at MM?  Some have suggested Fung was using this type of sale medium to get money out of Honkers with an elastic band attached.  And that the Phoenix money was sourced via Ponzi stuff. 

Not that I'd know about or give credit to such suggestions.  Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 7:01pm
money laundering? well we/they were all warned of that possibility
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 7:04pm
Maybe we're just happy to stimulate the economy right now LOL

I wish I had a sig
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 7:45pm
It seems bizarre that the one-time Vice Chairman of the Hong Kong Stock Exchange would align himself with a suspected money launderer.... and yet, here we are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 8:23pm
I always thought " last resort Laurie " had a shifty look too.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:13pm
We're all being too kind, too tongue in cheek, but blind Freddy could see this is not kosher, look at all this money being spent, with little chance of a notable recoup, any anti laundering body worth their salt would be all over this. Australia is becoming the new Cayman Is, soon we shall be a laughing stock like NZ where they don't pre race test as they are too broke.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:15pm
Four Corners has lost the cred they once had, but surely a good investigative journo like Kate McClymont could delve into this....she may value her life too much, but she is fearless and she would need to be......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rusty nails Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Bonjour Bonjour wrote:

We're all being too kind, too tongue in cheek, but blind Freddy could see this is not kosher, look at all this money being spent, with little chance of a notable recoup, any anti laundering body worth their salt would be all over this. Australia is becoming the new Cayman Is, soon we shall be a laughing stock like NZ where they don't pre race test as they are too broke.......
How does this obvious money laundering work?
The breeder get what out of it?
Besides a big tax break......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rusty nails Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 12:50pm
Bill not break!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:00pm
Rusty Nails it is a centuries old practice.
"Invest" black money in a reputable business ( the buy-in price is  of least consideration) the ongoing returns are then legitimate.
Speak to anybody who has skimmed  sizable amounts of money from a business pre-tax & they will tell how hard it is to spend that money domestically without attracting ATO attention
Money coming from overseas. Not a problem. Austrac is fuseless
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:07pm
True Glencoe,

But if we look at the total they have spent at the sales, unless they end up getting a decent well patronised stallion prospect they will have lost quite a lot of money.

If I wanted to launder $10 mil and after buying some over-priced yearlings managed to make $2mil prizemoney minus training costs for lets say 10 horses then I'm left with around $1mil. That is good return if you have a billion dollars to launder for someone like them. 

I can't help but think some of the vendors are involved with kickbacks or some arrangement. Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:08pm
Unfortuately we have two problems why oversight will most likely not occur
The Oz breeding cartels love the money & the funny money sales money is not widely shared across  the industry. There is not a trickle down effect. If anything , prices increase, the market becomes distorted and thus the middle market & small breeder keep getting screwed
The other problem is the sanctimonious, non-collegiate approach of each states horse industries
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:11pm
$10 mill is nary a concern. Treated as loose change
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:31pm
Bill Vlahos went from mach-4 to zero because there was no money. Here, however, the creditors (MM & Inglis) and breeders get paid, hence why the show rolls on. 

Publishing a record of every bid would be a significant deterrent, as there needs to be a willing underbidder for the price to go up. 

Selling 'as agent' should also get the flick.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:36pm
Lets say they launder $100m over the sales season down in Southern hemisphere. And without a stallion they get $10 mil out of it via racing the yearlings. 

I understand that it is loose change but it is not really worth the effort of making the original 100m if you only get 10mil on the 'clean side'.

I come to the conclusion that they are getting kickbacks from the vendors. There are others like yourself Glencoe with more experience and insight but what does anyone think of that conclusion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 2:55pm
Kickbacks, syndicates.

Tomayto, tomarto.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:00pm
I've got my theory, if I express it I'll be locked up or worse........I just hope one day it all comes out and the guilty are done like dinners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:07pm
Come on Bonjour,
share or at least message with theory. You won't end up in jail. Maybe something worse could happen but this is an anonymous forum and very unlike you to be silenced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:20pm
Not that this would ever happen, but:

"What's your reserve?"
"$400,000.
"I'll guarantee to buy him for $800,000, so long as we split the extra $400,000 (60/40 your way because of tax, commission etc)".
"Done".

So the horse has actually costs the purchaser $704,000 inc GST.  The purchaser then adds his profit (30% on top of the implied $880,000 purchase price) plus on-costs and syndicates the yearling at a valuation of just over $1,000,000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:20pm
kavg, its supposed to be anonymous, but I can promise you many here know who is who. 
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Not that this would ever happen, but:

"What's your reserve?"
"$400,000.
"I'll guarantee to buy him for $800,000, so long as we split the extra $400,000 (60/40 your way because of tax, commission etc)".
"Done".

So the horse has actually costs the purchaser $704,000 inc GST.  The purchaser then adds his profit (30% on top of the implied $880,000 purchase price) plus on-costs and syndicates the yearling at a valuation of just over $1,000,000 $1,150,000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rusty nails Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Not that this would ever happen, but:

"What's your reserve?"
"$400,000.
"I'll guarantee to buy him for $800,000, so long as we split the extra $400,000 (60/40 your way because of tax, commission etc)".
"Done".

So the horse has actually costs the purchaser $704,000 inc GST.  The purchaser then adds his profit (30% on top of the implied $880,000 purchase price) plus on-costs and syndicates the yearling at a valuation of just over $1,000,000.
And the breeder receives $640, but pays tax on $800.
Hmmmm
I’ll pass 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 3:59pm
They're catching on SC.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:09pm
So the split's a bit different Rusty: just produced the above in a jiffy.

Bottom line is that the arrangement guarantees that the vendor gets his reserve (which he may not have otherwise achieved) plus extra for his trouble, and the syndicator makes a windfall profit.  Win/win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:15pm
That's what I expected and alluded to Second.

Understand AA, respect Bonjour's right to silence. 

But this is all hypothetical as Second said Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:19pm
And whilst in this 'hypothetical world' this is the obvious reason why the sales market has held up for the last countless years because prior to this lot, there have been countless others doing the same. The participating vendors are partly to blame and of course the sales companies and authorities all turn a blind eye but they share, along with governments, the majority of the blame.

But of course if i make an honest $1000 mistake in my tax return they will be just as understanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rusty nails Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

So the split's a bit different Rusty: just produced the above in a jiffy.

Bottom line is that the arrangement guarantees that the vendor gets his reserve (which he may not have otherwise achieved) plus extra for his trouble, and the syndicator makes a windfall profit.  Win/win.

No doubt syndicators use this tactic, probably giving the vendor an invoice for consulting, to make them square tax wise.

But I thought we were talking about nefarious characters wanting to launder money.
 
In which case  it’s the other way around.

If, say I had $10M I wanted to launder, I’d be wanting to officially pay $4M for my $10M asset, with the balance “paid under the table”.
In which case paying over the odds is not the solution.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 4:56pm
But let's move on from possible syndication rorts and come back to Tony Fung (Aquis).

It appears he's shutting down his stud presence in both Victoria and NSW and moving most of his stallions (most of them 2nd graders) to Qld.  Yet he's still buying heaps of yearling colts, paying clear overs for most of them.

But what's most incredible is the fact that he's formed an alliance with Phoenix, the alleged Ponzi scheme mob which is a banned pariah in almost every racing country except of Australia.  Why would anyone form an alliance with such a discredited entity as Phoenix?

Vendors may well be counting their blessings just for the moment, but ultimately it's highly likely that little good will ultimately come of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 5:59pm
Rusty,

Per SC’s example... the laundry tips in 800, immediately receives 240 back from the vendor, then syndicates half the horse for another 500.

7.5% ‘leakage’ is better than you’ll get at TravelEx LOL. PLUS, you’re still sitting on an asset worth $500k.

Most would be happy to get a clean $800k back out of a dirty $1m that they can’t touch.

Bear in mind, the players in question are trying to wash billions. They’d be well aware that 70-80% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
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