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Jeffrey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Feb 2023 at 4:53pm
I bought a mare I would be interested in your thoughts for if you have time.  Her name is Pepperano.  She is quite difficult to breed having soundness issues and being very big, a real clunker.  plenty of bone and scope about her on the plus side.  she had an ole kirk foal and he has too much bulk.  couple deep fields also which are no good.  was thinking about Admire Mars or Dundeel.  don't actually mind talismanic.  outcross probably good idea.  think i like the following bloodlines for her in no particular order lunchtime, sir tristram, marscay, Kenmare, star kingdom, anabaa, storm cat, more than ready, medaglia d'oro, singspiel, never say die, red ransom, sadlers wells, galileo, mr prospector.
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  PEPPERANO (AUS) Grey filly 2012  
Court Command
Bay 2003		 Commands
Bay 1996		 Danehill
Bay 1986		 Danzig
Bay 1977		 Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom		 1961
1968		 2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981		 His Majesty
Spring Adieu		 1968
1974		 4-d
2-d
Cotehele House
Brown or black 1980		 My Swanee
Grey 1963		 Petition
Grey Rhythm		 1944
1954		 16-g
8-j
Eight Carat
Brown 1975		 Pieces of Eight
Klairessa		 1963
1969		 3-o
9-c
Court House Lane
Bay 1994		 Zoffany
Bay 1980		 Our Native
Bay 1970		 Exclusive Native
Our Jackie		 1965
1964		 10-a
20-a
Grey Dawn Girl
Grey 1970		 Grey Dawn
Hoi Polloi		 1962
1956		 16-c
1-n
Fine Kudos
Bay 1983		 Elocutionist
Bay 1973		 Gallant Romeo
Strictly Speaking		 1961
1967		 23-b
2-s
Refining
Chestnut 1970		 Prince John
Rich Reserve		 1953
1961		 14-f
9-f
Serrano
Grey 2007		 Ferocity
Grey 2002		 Lion Hunter
Grey 1992		 Danehill
Bay 1986		 Danzig
Razyana		 1977
1981		 7-a
2-d
Pure of Heart
Grey 1978		 Godswalk
Audrey Joan		 1974
1963		 2-h
10-c
Chiara
Bay 1994		 Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983		 Try My Best
Mill Princess		 1975
1977		 8-f
8-c
Etoile d'Or
Chestnut 1983		 Diplomatic Star
Marchwill		 1977
1976		 22-b
13-b
Kiss N' a Shilling
Bay 1992		 Crested Wave
Bay or brown 1976		 Crozier
Bay 1958		 My Babu
Miss Olympia		 1945
1952		 1-w
23-b
Fading Wave
Bay or brown 1964		 Quibu
Fading Sky		 1942
1958		 11-b
20-c
Jean Gordon
Bay 1982		 Amalgam
Bay 1972		 Damascus
Charming Alibi		 1964
1963		 8-h
13-c
Maid of Orleans
Grey 1974		 Sovereign Edition
Dee Dee		 1962
1963		 13-a
5-d
  Ancestor duplications: Danehill 3m x 4m
reductio ad absurdum
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You could try the Lonhro sire line.  He refines and you'd get the cross to Eight Carat.
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Bought a nice mare called Pepperano and she is quite difficult to breed to.  She is a big clunky mare who has had a couple deep field foals and an ole kirk.  she does have good bone and scope though.  i bought her in foal and will be first time i have bred her.  the ole kirk (6 months) is the size of an elephant.  i was thinking admire mars or dundeel.  wondered if anyone had any thoughts?  she was a cripple when racing and inbred to Danehill so fairly keen to outcross, is an early runner, need a commercial cross though likely will breed to race.  keen to breed to a horse that can run early and also win from 1200 to 2000 metres.  hence admire mars and dundeel tick these boxes and some obvious affinities in the bloodlines. any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated?
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Welcome to the forum Jeffrey

Well believe you have not one but two problems: the mare is (a) difficult to match from a pedigree perspective and (b) appears to be the prime problem from a physical perspective.  So even if you find stallions that suit in relation to (a) they may not be suitable on account of their size, and (b) less bulky stallions may well contain too much Danehill blood.

The earlier choices of Deep Field and Ole Kirk look ok on paper and neither are gross stallons, however you advise that the foals are either no good or too big. 

Another issue is stud fee.  You’ve already shelled out $120k for the mare and given the mare’s lack of success thus far you may be over-breeding to Dundeel at $66k.  So perhaps his son Castelvecchio at a likely negotiable $19.8k may have some appeal.  Another one worth consideration might be North Pacific which is free of Danehill and brings in the Eight Carat cross as sort of suggested elsewhere by Furious.

Over to others.
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  Unnamed    
North Pacific (AUS)
Brown 2017		 Brazen Beau
Brown 2011		 I Am Invincible
Bay 2004		 Invincible Spirit
Bay 1997		 Green Desert
Rafha		 1983
1987		 A4
7-a
Cannarelle
Bay 1998		 Canny Lad
Countess Pedrille		 1987
1994		 14>
1-n
Sansadee
Black 2000		 Snaadee
Bay or brown 1987		 Danzig
Somfas		 1977
1978		 7-a
4-g
Sansapa
Black 1988		 Bletchingly
Nearctic Answer		 1970
1973		 7-a
4-g
Up in Lights
Bay 2009		 O'Reilly
Brown 1993		 Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983		 Try My Best
Mill Princess		 1975
1977		 8-f
8-c
Courtza
Bay 1986		 Pompeii Court
Hunza		 1977
1970		 1-p
13-b
Love the Limelight
Brown 2000		 Octagonal
Brown 1992		 Zabeel
Eight Carat		 1986
1975		 16-c
9-c
Jacqwin
Brown 1993		 Bluebird
Nuwirah		 1984
1987		 9-b
6-f
Pepperano (AUS)
Grey 2012		 Court Command
Bay 2003		 Commands
Bay 1996		 Danehill
Bay 1986		 Danzig
Razyana		 1977
1981		 7-a
2-d
Cotehele House
Brown or black 1980		 My Swanee
Eight Carat		 1963
1975		 8-j
9-c
Court House Lane
Bay 1994		 Zoffany
Bay 1980		 Our Native
Grey Dawn Girl		 1970
1970		 20-a
1-n
Fine Kudos
Bay 1983		 Elocutionist
Refining		 1973
1970		 2-s
9-f
Serrano
Grey 2007		 Ferocity
Grey 2002		 Lion Hunter
Grey 1992		 Danehill
Pure of Heart		 1986
1978		 2-d
10-c
Chiara
Bay 1994		 Last Tycoon
Etoile d'Or		 1983
1983		 8-c
13-b
Kiss N' a Shilling
Bay 1992		 Crested Wave
Bay or brown 1976		 Crozier
Fading Wave		 1958
1964		 23-b
20-c
Jean Gordon
Bay 1982		 Amalgam
Maid of Orleans		 1972
1974		 13-c
5-d
  Ancestor duplications: Danzig 5m x 5m   Last Tycoon 4m x 5f   Eight Carat 5m x 5f  
    Danehill x 4m,5m
reductio ad absurdum
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  Unnamed    
Castelvecchio (AUS)
Bay 2016		 Dundeel
Bay 2009		 High Chaparral
Bay 1999		 Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981		 Northern Dancer
Fairy Bridge		 1961
1975		 2-d
5-h
Kasora
Brown 1993		 Darshaan
Kozana		 1981
1982		 13-c
1-n
Stareel
Bay 2000		 Zabeel
Bay 1986		 Sir Tristram
Lady Giselle		 1971
1982		 6-e
16-c
Staring
Bay 1988		 Fiesta Star
Sweet Violet		 1979
1981		 1-n
22-b
St Therese
Chestnut 1997		 Dehere
Bay 1991		 Deputy Minister
Bay or brown 1979		 Vice Regent
Mint Copy		 1967
1970		 10-c
10-a
Sister Dot
Bay 1985		 Secretariat
Sword Game		 1970
1976		 2-s
2-o
Moon Scent
Chestnut 1977		 Aloe
Chestnut 1960		 Alycidon
Dader		 1945
1949		 1-w
14-b
Flash Miss
Bay 1968		 James
Flash in the Pan		 1962
1959		 7-a
8-j
Pepperano (AUS)
Grey 2012		 Court Command
Bay 2003		 Commands
Bay 1996		 Danehill
Bay 1986		 Danzig
Razyana		 1977
1981		 7-a
2-d
Cotehele House
Brown or black 1980		 My Swanee
Eight Carat		 1963
1975		 8-j
9-c
Court House Lane
Bay 1994		 Zoffany
Bay 1980		 Our Native
Grey Dawn Girl		 1970
1970		 20-a
1-n
Fine Kudos
Bay 1983		 Elocutionist
Refining		 1973
1970		 2-s
9-f
Serrano
Grey 2007		 Ferocity
Grey 2002		 Lion Hunter
Grey 1992		 Danehill
Pure of Heart		 1986
1978		 2-d
10-c
Chiara
Bay 1994		 Last Tycoon
Etoile d'Or		 1983
1983		 8-c
13-b
Kiss N' a Shilling
Bay 1992		 Crested Wave
Bay or brown 1976		 Crozier
Fading Wave		 1958
1964		 23-b
20-c
Jean Gordon
Bay 1982		 Amalgam
Maid of Orleans		 1972
1974		 13-c
5-d
  Ancestor duplications: Danehill x 4m,5m
reductio ad absurdum
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https://www.stallions.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/NorthPacificConfo-WEB.jpg

Brazen Beau - Up In Lights by O'Reilly

Brown 2017 hh
Year to stud: 2021
Oldest progeny are: Entered stud last year his oldest progeny are foals this season
FYEAR: 2022 year first foals born

Standing at: Newgate Farm

2022 fee: $22,000 inc. GST

Fee history: 2021: $22,000,
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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stud said castelvecchio is getting quite big and heavy foals.  i really liked him as a horse so that is dissappointing.  
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this is a great cross on blood.  do you have any thoughts on admire mars?
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not sure how to reply to people properly so this is responding to second chance.  in for a penny in for a pound.  probably have admire mars first and dundeel second at this stage.  admire mars fertility is a problem however.  does give me a horse that adds some stamina and can race at 2.  plus don't mind the bloodline match and on type he gives us some hope and he may have success here given likely affinity for More than ready and on good farm.
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Find it hard to make judgement on Admire Mars other to say it's perhaps a leap of faith to suggest he'd match well with Pepperano.  He may but just as easily may not.
See the mare visited him in 2022 so assume she's not in foal if you're considering going that way again, however if she is in foal believe you'd be better served going elsewhere for the 2023 season.  And of course AM may not return next Spring.
I'd be seeking alternate advice re Castlececchio if you just asked "what are his foals like", as the answer often given by studs is what they believe you want to hear.  You know, "big strong well put together fellows".  However ignore the foregoing if you prefaced your question about his stock by saying you were wary of getting big foal. 
Guess that's all I have to offer at this stage, but BOL whichever way you go.
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thankyou second chance.  said she was having big foals and they advised avoid Castelvecchio whom i love.  yes she missed last year was knocked around by 66kg foal.  it will be him or dundeel at this stage.  will let you know how it turns out.  admire ticks a few important boxes, 1. type, 2. class, 3. outcross, 4. early running 2 year old, 5. bit more stamina and could win out to mile possibly, 6. chance is commercial, 7 some bloodline affinity with Daiwa Major and Danehill, Medicean and Danehill, Commands Singspiel (epaulette), Machiavellian has had success here.  Not complete leap of faith.  Would love some Sir Tristram for her but maybe next time and new stallions come up each year.
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You have some Sir Tristram in Castelvecchio.  Just no Lonhro/Octagonal/Eight Carat.
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Originally posted by Jeffrey Jeffrey wrote:

thankyou second chance.  said she was having big foals and they advised avoid Castelvecchio whom i love.  yes she missed last year was knocked around by 66kg foal.  it will be him or dundeel at this stage.  will let you know how it turns out.  admire ticks a few important boxes, 1. type, 2. class, 3. outcross, 4. early running 2 year old, 5. bit more stamina and could win out to mile possibly, 6. chance is commercial, 7 some bloodline affinity with Daiwa Major and Danehill, Medicean and Danehill, Commands Singspiel (epaulette), Machiavellian has had success here.  Not complete leap of faith.  Would love some Sir Tristram for her but maybe next time and new stallions come up each year.

The first thing I noticed about Pepperano's breeding is that her broodmare sire is a full sibling to Leone Chiara, dam of Star Witness and Nostradamus, and half sibling to Lumina, dam of Pohutukawa.  Both Nostradamus and Lumina are by Medaglia D'Oro.  Star Witness has exactly one runnerl out of a Medaglia D'Oro mare, and she is a listed-winning and Gr-3 placed earner of over $300k.  Unfortunately, the only sons of Medaglia D'Oro standing in Australia right now have up-close lines of Danehil.  If Talismanic shuttles in the spring, the concern with him is that she's a super-fast speedball and he won at 2800 m...you risk getting the speed of the stayer and stamina of the sprinter with a cross like that.  

From the same sireline of El Prado, you can choose between stalwart Artie Schiller and his son Flying Artie.  

Although he's getting up there in age, Lonhro is mostly an outcross, gets runners at a mile or longer, is still commercially attractive (though you might want to negotiate on his fee), and as others have noted, he will refine a heavier mare.

Although I wouldn't normally consider Storm Cat for a heavy-bodied mare, Victor Ludorum may be okay.  He's by Shamardal, who brings in Machiavellian, out of a granddaughter of Helen Street.  His second dam is by Pennekamp, a son of Coral Dance by Green Dancer, who traces to the same mare line of one of Pepperano's best ancestors in Grey Dawn.

Also bringing in Machiavellian and off to a decent start at stud is Harry Angel.  His sire traces to Try my Best, grandsire of Chiara, and is out of a Machiavellian mare.  His dam's side is interesting, with a useful racehorse stallion and very good broodmare sire in Lord Avie and a lot of sound, useful racehorses who compete well in stakes company.  
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flying artie is lovely on type for her and bloodlines look solid at first glance.  thankyou this is some good work and lines up with how i have been seeing it.  was thinking about talismanic also but for a stayer he don't look that light.  
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Will be interesting to see how Artorius comes up this Autumn.  If he doesn't win at Group 1 level suspect Flying Artie will be available for about $11k this coming Spring.

And talking about Star Witness/Leone Chiara as KM indeed was, sometimes pays to think outside the box, go a tad feral; ie consider Star Witness's son Star Turn.  He's flying under the radar somewhat considering his AEI of about 1.30 and has a fine winners to runners ratio. 

Now here's the rub: his match with Pepperano results in full siblings Leone Chiara and Ferocity 3f x 3m and while it introduces another line of Danehill it's back at 4 x 5 x 5.  As a line-breeding aficionado I'd certainly consider giving it a go, others who go for nicks and affinities mightn't.

Realize this is probably just unnecessarily muddying the water but felt a need to put it out there.
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hi second chance.  on type flying artie is very close to perfect which means a lot with this mare.  he is an outcross also which is pretty big deal as she was called a cripple by people training her.  they said she had more ability then she was able to show.  plus he was an early 2 year old which was one of her best attributes.
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Only thing is Flying Artie isn't on the smaller side.  But here is the pedigree.

Unnamed  
Flying Artie (AUS)
Bay 2013		Artie Schiller
Bay 2001		El Prado
Grey 1989		Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981		Northern Dancer
Fairy Bridge		1961
1975		2-d
5-h
Lady Capulet
Grey 1974		Sir Ivor
Cap and Bells		1965
1958		8-g
1-l
Hidden Light
Bay 1983		Majestic Light
Bay 1973		Majestic Prince
Irradiate		1966
1966		4-d
8-c
Tallahto
Bay 1970		Nantallah
Legato		1953
1956		6-a
13-c
Flying Ruby
Bay or brown 2004		Rubiton
Brown 1983		Century
Brown 1969		Better Boy
Royal Suite		1951
1960		2-n
20>
Ruby
Bay 1977		Seventh Hussar
Briar's Toddy		1966
1971		14-c
4-l
Parkhill's Flyer
Bay 1989		Brigand
Bay 1971		Noholme
Lady Sybil		1956
1957		1-u
22-b
Better Fantasy
Brown or black 1975		Better Boy
Pure Fantasy		1951
1968		2-n
7-d
Pepperano (AUS)
Grey 2012		Court Command
Bay 2003		Commands
Bay 1996		Danehill
Bay 1986		Danzig
Razyana		1977
1981		7-a
2-d
Cotehele House
Brown or black 1980		My Swanee
Eight Carat		1963
1975		8-j
9-c
Court House Lane
Bay 1994		Zoffany
Bay 1980		Our Native
Grey Dawn Girl		1970
1970		20-a
1-n
Fine Kudos
Bay 1983		Elocutionist
Refining		1973
1970		2-s
9-f
Serrano
Grey 2007		Ferocity
Grey 2002		Lion Hunter
Grey 1992		Danehill
Pure of Heart		1986
1978		2-d
10-c
Chiara
Bay 1994		Last Tycoon
Etoile d'Or		1983
1983		8-c
13-b
Kiss N' a Shilling
Bay 1992		Crested Wave
Bay or brown 1976		Crozier
Fading Wave		1958
1964		23-b
20-c
Jean Gordon
Bay 1982		Amalgam
Maid of Orleans		1972
1974		13-c
5-d
 Ancestor duplications:Better Boy5m,5f x Danehillx 4m,5m  
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hi furious,  bulky is the problem.  scopey or tall is ok. 
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Then Flying Artie is good.  I was looking at Castleveccio and his build is more chunky.  That's one of the reasons I went straight to Lonhro but Last Tycoon line also usually have a fine build.  Maybe one of the reasons both lines have gone well with Redoute's Choice mares.
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Flying Artie also gives you the Sadler's Wells line over Danehill blood. 

I guess you could also look at Brutal and Grunt two O'Reilly sons.  O'Reilly is a son of Last Tycoon.  But both probably wont give to early two year old speed.
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flying artie, yes i looked at both of those.  Brutal is pretty solid.  not sure on grunt but i think he is a similar style of horse.
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Forget Grunt, he sires big heavy types who'll take a lot of time.
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Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Then Flying Artie is good.  I was looking at Castleveccio and his build is more chunky.  That's one of the reasons I went straight to Lonhro but Last Tycoon line also usually have a fine build.  Maybe one of the reasons both lines have gone well with Redoute's Choice mares.

While we're temporarily going down the Last Tycoon route, some may have noticed that my suggestion of North Pacific would not only introduce the Eight Carat cross but also give you sex balanced Last Tycoon 4 x 5.  But I digress.
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Yes but I thought the I am Invincible part would have that larger build.  Very confusing Jeffrey as with every pedigree you don't know which genes will come through.  So you can have full syblings looking totally different!
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Points: 55609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 12:06pm
North Pacific in my pic above looks very heavyset to me as do most Brazen Beaus but Star Turn below, looks to have plenty of leg & more refined plus, like 2nd Chance, I love the specific line breeding. Whilst he hasn't set the world on fire, he may well need more mares who are line bred to him & not just via Danehill Big smile




Edited by Gay3 - 16 Feb 2023 at 12:07pm
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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Points: 1522 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Jeffrey Jeffrey wrote:

hi second chance.  on type flying artie is very close to perfect which means a lot with this mare.  he is an outcross also which is pretty big deal as she was called a cripple by people training her.  they said she had more ability then she was able to show.  plus he was an early 2 year old which was one of her best attributes.

Your mare's trainers were a tough crowd -- this is a horse who ran out 21 starts for over $500,000!  Eight of those starts were as a 2yo, no less.

Pepperano has a line to Crozier via his son Crested Wave, who was a top stallion in NZ for a while.  Surprise Baby's second dam and Jennifer Eccles' third dam are both daughters of Crested Wave.  There are at least 6 foals by Centaine out of Crested Wave mares, including at least 3 winners, and at least 1 foal by Rubiton out of a Crested Wave mare who ran over 50 starts and earned close to $200,000 in the mid 1990s.  While it's not been tried a lot, it doesn't appear to be a cross producing negative results.

Crested Wave is out of a mare by Argentine stallion Quibu.  The fantastic producer Smartaire is by Quibu out of a mare by Olympia and her third dam is by Questionnaire; Crested Wave's dam is by Quibu out of a mare by a son of Questionnaire who is in turn out of a mare by Olympia. Smartaire produced champion Smart Angle, useful stallion Quadratic, and solid racehorse-producing sire Smarten.  Out of two Quadratic mares he saw, El Prado has a multiple Canadian Gr-3 winning near-millionaire in El Prado Essence and another winner.  Artie Schiller has not seen many mares with Quadratic, but one of the few bred on that cross is a Gr-2 winner named Mr. Commons (2nd dam by Quadratic) who won over $900k on the track.
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Points: 55609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 4:04pm
Your post leads me to mention that I thought I noticed a number of 1W/Lavendula II etc. instances, so I checked 'ancestors' in more detail To discover a heavy number (sorry, got side tracked in the process Embarrassed) of that family & your mention of Crozier reminded me. This influence still seems relevant today.
Thought I'd mention it in case it helps Smile
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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Points: 56833 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 4:27pm
Don't think Jeffrey has Artie Schiller in the frame, but just for info he's a big strong bugger though not coarse.  And a windsucker.  See there's no stud return for his covers in 2022 so hope he's still alive and if so still serving mares.
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