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Oakleigh Plate

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Afros View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Feb 2021 at 4:09pm
I think something needs to change with this race or it will be at risk of dropping in grade, while it produces great races as a spectacle each year it just seems to be lacking depth wise.  The timing is bad for it admittedly only a week after the Lightning Stakes which makes it less and less a 2nd leg of the triple crown with the Lightning and Newmarket.

Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2021 at 4:23pm
If I am not mistaken when Schillaci won the big 3 there were "only" 7 open aged group 1 races between 1000m and 1200m in Australia and only one of them was in Sydney.




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2021 at 4:53pm
So now there's now 12 with a lot more racing since Schillaci last raced 25 years ago.  Not that it in any way helps Afros.

Clearly the simple programming change of bringing the Lightning forward one week could make it easier for horses to run in the "Triple Crown". 

However you have to question whether winning the "Triple Crown" is really a viable possibility these days.  Win the first leg and up goes your rating and you cop plenty of weight in the Plate.  Win the Plate and you're carrying the grandstand and more in the Newmarket.  No, most trainers will keep their 110-120 raters home and later concentrate on the William Reid and the TJ Smith under WFA conditions.

But over to others.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 6:35am
I suspect you are right SC, so many WFA options in the 1000-1200 range, plus the Goodwood at SWP, around the country that the Oakleood Plate has become the poor cousin.

I suspect if this and the Galaxy were Brisbane/Adelaide/Perth races they'd have gone down to Group 2 already.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 10:40am
Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

I think something needs to change with this race or it will be at risk of dropping in grade, while it produces great races as a spectacle each year it just seems to be lacking depth wise.  The timing is bad for it admittedly only a week after the Lightning Stakes which makes it less and less a 2nd leg of the triple crown with the Lightning and Newmarket.

Thoughts?

Yep spot on. Something needs to happen. Should it be run in the spring perhaps? 
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1st of 18FLEM 14Feb87 1000m Firm2 LIGHTNING Group 1 $100,000 ($65,000) Mr John Scorse 54kg Barrier 1
2nd Special 52.5kg, 3rd Canny Lass 55.5kg 0:56.60, 1.3L 7-1
1st of 17CAUL 21Feb87 1100m Soft5 OAKLGH PLT Group 1 $121,000 ($79,000) Mr John Scorse 53.5kg Barrier 5
2nd Special 51.5kg, 3rd Rubiton 51.5kg 1:04.40, 3L 11-4
1st of 17FLEM 07Mar87 1200m Firm2 NEWMARKET Group 1 $251,000 ($163,500) Mr John Scorse 55kg Barrier 15
3rd Rubiton 51kg 1:09.50 9-4
1st of 7CANT 21Mar87 1200m Soft5 CANT STKS Group 2 $100,500 ($62,500) Mr John Scorse 54.5kg Barrier 7
2nd Campaign King 57kg, 5th Canny Lass 55.5kg 1:09.50, 2.2L 4-9
2nd of 12RAND 20Apr87 1100m Good3 THE GALAXY Group 1 $151,450 ($27,000) Mr John Scorse 57kg Barrier 10
5th Special 52kg 0:00.00, 0.2L 7-4




reductio ad absurdum



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1st of 18FLEM 15Feb92 1000m Firm2 LIGHTNING Group 1 $201,000 ($131,000) Damien Oliver 54kg Barrier 10
2nd Umatilla (NZ) 54kg 0:55.90, 1.5L 7-1
1st of 17CAUL 22Feb92 1100m Firm2 OAKLGH PLT Group 1 $201,750 ($131,000) Damien Oliver 54.5kg Barrier 7
3rd Dapper's Hope 50.5kg 1:02.70R 2-1
1st of 12FLEM 07Mar92 1200m Firm2 NEWMARKET Group 1 $501,000 ($326,000) Damien Oliver 55.5kg Barrier 8
2nd Storaia 56kg, 3rd Umatilla (NZ) 54kg 1:09.40, 0.5L, 9-4/11-4/5-2
2nd of 6CANT 21Mar92 1200m Firm2 CANT STKS Group 2 $101,418 ($18,000) Damien Oliver 54.5kg Barrier 1
1st Alishan 57kg, 3rd Old Role 54.5kg 1:09.61, 0.2L 1-3
1st of 11RAND 20Apr92 1100m Good3 THE GALAXY Group 1 $252,170 ($172,170) Damien Oliver 57kg Barrier 1
2nd Friend's Venture 53.5kg, 3rd Euclase 54.5kg 1:03.90, 2L 4-1




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 4:21pm
So the Lightning conditions are the problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 4:41pm
Good one RH.

Thing to notice is that the dates have changed significantly since 87 or 92, and there are two more WFA events during that period.  Those factors totally change the dynamic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 5:22pm
Oakleigh Plate, Newmarket, William Reid. Bada bing bada boom, new triple crown.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 6:03pm
Does a triple crown need to be state based ?

I would think a sprinter triple crown over a whole season could well be The Everest into the Lightning into the TJ.

OR The Darley into the Lightning into the TJ. 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 8:13pm
I think the reprogramming and the conditions of the season's racing have played a part.

The fact that they made the Australia Stakes run on Australia Day a group 2, and then created the William Reid after the Newmarket, and then Sydney created the TJSmith, and dropped the All Aged from 1600 to 1400m, it made the series of autumn WFA sprints a separate group.

You now have the wfa series Lightning, William Reid, TJSmith and All Aged, and you could include the Canterbury Stakes in that series which should be moved to replace the All Aged and switch the All Aged back to the mile which you can run on Queen Elizabeth day as the WFA mile championship race.

The WFA series is now seperate from the Oakleigh Plate, Newmarket and the Galaxy which should now be the handicap series.

So the WFA sprint series should be Lightning, into the William Reid into the TJSmith and then the Canterbury Stakes.

The sprint handicap series should be the Oakleigh Plate into the Newmarket and then the Galaxy, which can be moved to the Tancred meeting.

If you pushed the All Aged back out to the 1600m you could then have two group 1 WFA mile races for pure milers to target if they were not aiming at the Queen Elizabeth after the Doncaster, similar to derby day, where you had the Empire Rose at WFA and the Cantala a handicap. You also might get some of the George Ryder runners who miss the Doncaster aiming at this All Aged, because they are 1500m/1600m types, instead of having to either step up to the 2000m or drop back to the TJSmith.

At the moment the Oakleigh Plate is in a similar spot to where the old Gadsden was for the last twenty years of its group 1 existence. It is a showcase for the up and coming sprinters. Lightly raced horses who are looking to improve and who might be stepping up to group 1 for the first time. 

The last decade we have seen Pippie, Bivouac, Nature Strip, Lankan Rupee, Spirit Of Boom all go onto become group 1 WFA winners, while horses such as Starspangledbanner, Wanted, Sheidel, Flamberge, Booker, Response, Shamal Wind, Woorim among others have gone on to win group 1's.

I have no doubt that both winners from saturdays edition could develop into WFA group 1 sprinters, and horses like Brooklyn Hustle, Dirty Work, Kemalpasa and Zoutori have already been group 1 competitive so they are on an upward spiral (maybe Kemalpasa does not have that much improvement).

Maybe the conditions of the handicap series should be similar to the Melbourne Cup, as far as the allocation of weights is concerned. So what I mean is the weights for these three races are released two months before the race. If you win a WFA sprint race leading in, you are unable to be re-handicapped. You only get re-handicapped if you win a handicap or set weights race lead in, such as the Rubiton or one of the 3yo sprints. Also you could have exempt races such as Schillaci in the spring, the Rubiton, and maybe the Durbridge in Adelaide. 

After all that I just think there is a bit of re-jigging needed to keep it a group 1.

If you make these changes horses can still try for the traditional triple crown, but at the moment the Oakleigh Plate is missing something, although it still one of my favorite races for the year.  

  

    

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 9:12am
What also needs to happen, in my opinion, is that racing in Australia needs to be run as a whole national sport with one governing body. Not in its separate state based silos. That would also mean that quite a few Group 1s need to be downgraded. There is far too many Group 1s but thats a separate discussion to this one in terms of when the Oakleigh Plate should be run. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 10:41am
Our racing is amazingly diluted.

When you consider the options horses had when Schillaci and Placid Ark were dominating the sport. 

Not only is there the so called pop up races but all the sales related races. 

Rocketing By should be looking at group racing now but he goes around again in another sales race on Saturday. 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 3:42pm
Be interesting to know how many thoroughbreds were bred in Australia per year when Schillaci and Placid Ark were racing, compared to now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horlicks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 3:53pm
Live foals 1987  22587  if back to PA foaling 1984  18276

                1992  19080

                2018  14197
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 4:04pm
Thanks, horlicks, but that information does not support the hypothesis I was developing in my mind.Confused
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Was going to say, completely debunked it in one hit! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 5:09pm
Foal numbers have been down for quite a few years.  Stallion numbers are down.  Many racing fillies or mares disappear and don't get breed.  Whether they get breed in the sporting industry - many would be.  When I went to Europe in 2012 there was a lady who breed them on the tour and she had some very nicely breed mares on her stud which would never be having thoroughbred foals.

We breed less we sell more to Asia.  Yet on the whole our fields hold up.

Also I have to follow stakes events world wide and our racing is stronger and more stable than most countries. Our group racing has far bigger fields than most and even our WFA usually outnumber the fields overseas.  When we were given international black type - yes we had fewer races but also we came in slowly and built it up.

I once did a study of mare and fillies black type races over a three week period in the USA and I can't for the life of me find it now.  But I know the amount of mares in that period who could get black type was triple the number for races for fillies or mares during our biggest carnival times.

Now that could of changed as a fair few races have been added to the calendar since those days.  What's more our mares - the very top ones - usually leave the mares closed races and take on and beat the boys.  We loose so many top males to stud early or sold on the asia.  Without those mare racing on into their fifth and sixth year our fields would suffer.

Yes changes could be made - but every time a change is made something else suffers.  You'd have to build from scratch and I think every body of racing would fight that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 8:14pm
Field size is not really a show of strength.

Many races particularly Group class WFA races are hopeless over matched or the wrong horses are running in them.

I doubt there is a serious miler running in this weekend Chipping Norton. 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 1:08am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Our racing is amazingly diluted.

When you consider the options horses had when Schillaci and Placid Ark were dominating the sport. 

Not only is there the so called pop up races but all the sales related races. 

Rocketing By should be looking at group racing now but he goes around again in another sales race on Saturday. 

Yeo i think you've hit the nail on the head. A lot of Group 1s...too many in Australian racing 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 6:32am
What's the right number of Group 1s Jamal?

For me it's not necessarily the number of races overall at the level but more the balance, there is currently 8 G1 races restricted to 3yo fillies, yet only 5 available from 2400m and longer, 4 of which are handicaps, so a highly rated stayer either lumps the grandstand, races over unsuitable distances or just waits for the Tancred each year, crazy.

When a colt like The Autumn Sun can be retired as a "champion with multiple G1s and having never been tested outside his age group, for me something is wrong there, it'd be like a kid who only won a bunch of junior grand slams being in the conversation with Djokovic, Nadal and Federer when talking the GOAT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

What's the right number of Group 1s Jamal?

For me it's not necessarily the number of races overall at the level but more the balance, there is currently 8 G1 races restricted to 3yo fillies, yet only 5 available from 2400m and longer, 4 of which are handicaps, so a highly rated stayer either lumps the grandstand, races over unsuitable distances or just waits for the Tancred each year, crazy.

When a colt like The Autumn Sun can be retired as a "champion with multiple G1s and having never been tested outside his age group, for me something is wrong there, it'd be like a kid who only won a bunch of junior grand slams being in the conversation with Djokovic, Nadal and Federer when talking the GOAT.

You've certainly asked an interesting question. I think from memory we have 74 Group 1 races in Australia. I think at least 15 to to 20 Group 1 races need to be downgraded to Group 2 level. There's probably scope to have more then 15 to 20 Group 1s downgraded.
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Jamal, how many effing times have you been told not to quote the immediately prior post!?!?  Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 6:38pm
Apart from Russian Revolution ,recently it's not a stallion making race , but I suppose Star Spangled Banner , Snitzel, Fastnet Rock and Snippets are very successful sires who have been successful in this race , hopefully in years to come race clubs can amicably discuss race dates that will be good for racing in general , and the overseeing body can facilitate discussion in regards to allowing a sprint series with some sort of golden Carrot for a triple Race winner ,lets say  2 Million for the winner of the Lightning , Oakleigh and Newmarket . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 9:12pm
Jamal just making a broad statement like "20 G1s should be downgraded" is just saying nothing really, what races should come down and how many should we have?

For mine I'd start at the age and sex restricted races, it's way to easy to do as The Autumn Sun did and grab a swag of G1s without stepping into open company.  The QLD and SA Oaks and Derbies should not be G1 races, one of the Flight and Thousand Guineas should also be demoted, maybe the Surround could stay, but I'm not a fan of that race being a G1 either.

There was talk a few years ago of the QLD Oaks being opened up to the older mares and run under WFA conditions and if that happened I'd give it a stay of execution, as that would give the mares a spring and autumn mile championship event (Empire Rose/Queen Of The Turf), a sprinting championship (Sangster) and staying Championship (QLD Oaks) the 1400m Brisbane mares G1 can go as well.

Frankly the present system could lead to the G1 status eventually being bestowed on races like the Auries Star, Bletchingly, Monash Stakes, PB Lawrence, Missile Stakes, Apollo Stakes and Expressway Stakes because G1 performers came out of these races, it's happening already with the G1 status slowly reversing down the path with the Warwick Stakes, Memsie and Makybe Diva all going up in recent years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 10:34pm
If we took group 1s off all handicaps that brings us down to far more manageable number of 56.

They should be spread out in a manner where the race is NOT a lead up to anything else it is a championship event unto itself.


According to the Studbook the Doomben 10,000 is now a handicap ? Has this been discussed on the forum elsewhere ?
 




reductio ad absurdum



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BRC Doomben 10,000 Race Winners
2yo & upwards open handicap

Doomben 10,000 Day

 

The $1 million Group 1 TAB Doomben 10,000 (recognised as one of the top 100 races in the world) is run at weight-for-age over 1200 metres.
It was first run in 1933 with its most notable winner being Bernborough, the greatest ever Queensland horse, in 1946.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:


For mine I'd start at the age and sex restricted races, it's way to easy to do as The Autumn Sun did and grab a swag of G1s without stepping into open company.  The QLD and SA Oaks and Derbies should not be G1 races, one of the Flight and Thousand Guineas should also be demoted, maybe the Surround could stay, but I'm not a fan of that race being a G1 either.

There was talk a few years ago of the QLD Oaks being opened up to the older mares and run under WFA conditions and if that happened I'd give it a stay of execution, as that would give the mares a spring and autumn mile championship event (Empire Rose/Queen Of The Turf), a sprinting championship (Sangster) and staying Championship (QLD Oaks) the 1400m Brisbane mares G1 can go as well.



We should be very much inline with the rest of the world.

In Europe the owners of 2yo fillies have access to group 1 races for 2yo fillies in 3 different countries, France, England and Ireland, they have the opportunity to win one of at least 4 group 1 races specifically for 2yo fillies. I think Australia should have at least 1 possibly 2. Japan also has a 2yo fillies group 1 race.









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 11:11pm
Yes and there all in the NH and easily accessible , gimme a break , we are limited in the countries in the SH so who would you recommend we align ourselves with.
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