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Mick Kent

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 1:51pm
a great article, and for what it's worth, something that i have embraced and pushed within our syndicate (initially plenty of kickback, but no more, as currently 7 starts for 1 unplaced run)  to the point that we have a rising 5 year old that will have had 8 starts by the time of seasons end.why? combination of many things none the least immaturity, however, our trainer was fully supportive (and vice verce) end result?sound horse with plenty of upside, i would say that if we had of gone early, we would not have had a horse left, as they say in the classics, size doen't matter, its the substance to develop and learn that does
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 2:16pm
His main point however was over-breeding.  

And he's damn right.  Far too many ill-bred mares are being covered, far too many mares with physical weaknesses are being covered, and far too many slow mares are being bred.

And until enough breeders with these types of mares go broke things aren't going to change because authorities clearly have no authority to tell breeders how to go about their businesses/hobbies.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 2:22pm
And almost forgot: too many mares are being covered by sires that aren't good matings from a pedigree and/or physical match perspective.

So at the end of the day there's just too much rubbish out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 2:23pm
Whilst I will not question Kents over all message some of his facts seem like looking through rose coloured glasses.

Japanese horses might run on firm tracks from  2 years to 5 or 6 years or older they would be lucky to have 6 starts a year.

Deep Impact 13 starts through 3 seasons
Almond Eye 14 starts through 4 seasons
Gentildonna 17 starts through 4 seasons
Orfevre 17 starts through 4 seasons
Lord Kanaloa 17 starts through 4 seasons
Gran Alegria 13 starts through 4 seasons
Gold Ship 27 starts through 5 seasons
Epiphaneia 12 starts through 3 seasons
Maurice 15 starts through 4 seasons
Kizuna 12 starts through 4 seasons


Before the shuttle stallion we used to breed upwards of 20,000 mares a year. Would 10,000 really stock racing in 7 states ?





reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

His main point however was over-breeding.  

And he's damn right.  Far too many ill-bred mares are being covered, far too many mares with physical weaknesses are being covered, and far too many slow mares are being bred.

And until enough breeders with these types of mares go broke things aren't going to change because authorities clearly have no authority to tell breeders how to go about their businesses/hobbies.



Who decides what is an ill bred mare ?

I agree faulty mares should be culled but slow mares are a different story.






reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 2:47pm
Anyone who's understands pedigrees and physiology and is objective almost instinctively knows if a mare is poorly bred or not.  And if not it's usually as clear as the nose on one's face upon looking at a yearling or broodmare sale page.  

But it's not so much deciding if a mare's well bred or not, but rather forming an opinion.  However too many breeders are the ones looking through rose colored glasses and continue to degrade the breed.   
One only needs to look at the non-select portions in the annual yearling sale catalogues to accept this reality.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 2:56pm
Who decides who is objective ?




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 2:58pm
At what stage does a pedigree become ordinary ?

I know one world class breeder/trainer who specialises in re-establishing families. He has made a killing out of it.






reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 3:00pm
Please attempt to contribute something constructive to the discussion.

And please don't ask who decides who is constructive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 3:05pm
The beauty of a pedigree is in the eye of the beholder.

You might see a pedigree as ordinary whilst somebody with a clever imagination might see good in it.

The industry should decide what traits they want bred out of the breed, list them and be strong about it.

But we know the industry is pretty piss weak by their stance with the whip.

It is all piss and wind. 






reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 3:22pm
One of my initial comments: "no-one has the authority to tell breeders how to go about their business or hobby".  That's the primary reason why there'll be little change.

Another is that sales companies make money selling stock and they aren't going to refuse sell too many  ill-bred or conformed yearlings if they can get their 8%.  But that said any number of yearling aren't accepted so one can imagine just how unattractive they might be.

And not too many stud owners are going to knock back bookings.  Though if they do here's always another stud up the street who'll accommodate.

Despite the proliferation of maiden races the majority of horses fail to win a race.  That's because they're slow, and they're generally slow because of their breeding or conformation.  Apart from if their trainers can't. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 3:28pm
If the Studbook can refuse horses that are artificially bred than they can also add other rules to limit entry into the book. 

Edited by djebel - 22 Jul 2021 at 3:28pm




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 3:58pm
For better or worse that's never going to happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 5:05pm
Ask Mr Kent how many of his horses were repatriated from SING whilst he was training there? Oh, and how many were slaughtered ? He might not be Robinson Crusoe when it comes to that, but it makes one wonder. If Mr Kent repatriated more than a few I'd be very pleasantly surprised, and will offer my apologies........I suspect pigs will fly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 5:11pm
Trainers train, owners repatriate (or not).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 5:12pm
What a cop out, rubbish!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 5:20pm
What kind of person can train hands on and know full well that all bar a few real good ones are headed for SING Zoo.....? Macau is even worse, HK now has a repat clause for Oz/NZ........what a friggin joke, so many lovely animals met a horrible end up there, it happened when I was there in 85/6 and still happens now.....they shunt a lot up to KL to race and the last meeting up there the average age was about 10yo.....out of sight, out of mind.......it's a farce Asian racing, all about face, and if the mainstream media had the guts to write up the goings on up there and the countless Aussies and Kiwi's that made small fortunes out of those horses, well, wont happen though, too many big names involved eh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 5:28pm
The responsibility for post racing future lies with owners.  Finish.

If what you say is true and trainers had a clear responsibility, both ethically and financially, there'd be no racing whatsoever in Singapore, Hong Kong, Macau, the UAE and more.  And far less throughout the rest of the racing world. 

And irrespective of the issue is in terms of equine welfare, Kent along with anyone else is entitled to express an opinion on any number of issues including in this case over-breeding in Australia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bonjour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 5:43pm
And in that short succinct response, you have outlined exactly why the industry has absolutely no social license...the Australian industry will be struggling in 10 years, NZ is finished and a major contribution is the "all care, no responsibility" of participants, not all but many, especially the newer stakeholders who only see $$$$$$.   Trainers, breeders and owners who live in glass houses, shouldn't be casting the stones..

Asian racing is a major part of our problem, which Mr Kent failed to raise....if you keep dancing to the beat of their drum, you end up with the situation we have....breeding for the sale ring not the racetrack...putting untried immature horses to stud because of the $$$$ and selling our best mares to Japan...yep, if you can't see a situation similar to NZ here, raising its head, you're not really concerned.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 6:03pm
If Breeders, Trainers and owners are not having the discussion than who is ? 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sister Dot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 6:18pm
SC Ive been  ringing this bell for years now it seems. Breeders will not listen, the authorities are not interested in establishing sensible strict guidelines for breeding stock, neither mare nor stallion. It’s just money, money, money. But this is not moral when dealing with living, feeling, magnificent animals who ARE the industry. Ok for motorbikes or racing cars, but not horses. 
Owners who breed from an unsound mare will argue that it wasn’t the mares soundness/confirmation that was the issue. Instead it will be the hardness of the track, or it stepped in a hole. 
Stallions with weaknesses who break down early go straight to stud, to inject that into their offspring. Only a quick Group victory and stud fees matter. Bleeders, roarers, tendons, lack of bone, long cannons, no one gives a hoot. They should be gelded and sold or given to suitable homes. They are very capable of performing in many different equine pursuits. What are we doing??? We are bringing down a rather supreme breed of horse, by detrimental practises. 
I’ve been shot down in flames by well known industry names for voicing these facts. I saw a now 3 yr old filly that I noticed a confirmation fault in very early on. When I mentioned it the breeder did nothing but deny, take offense, and generally throw a tantrum. The trainer is doing a great job, but this filly is constantly having problems and is very hard to get to the races. Has had a couple of starts but keeps coming up with soundness problems. Her dam was unsound, I wonder if this filly too will end up in the broodmare paddock? 
Thing is, if we breed sounder horses, and much less of them, there will still always be a winner of every race. We could be renowned for our wonderful, sound, tough winners if we could just bury our egos and start fixing the problems we’ve created. The industry has become extremely irresponsible. Money is the root of all evil. 
“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 6:48pm
Thanks for the support SD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 6:56pm
Have a read of this thread on twitter for another perspective.





reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

At what stage does a pedigree become ordinary ?

I know one world class breeder/trainer who specialises in re-establishing families. He has made a killing out of it.



Fully agree, my mare which I bred is from a family that has “deteriorated” in terms of track success through a variety of reason.
The catalogue page would look average if I could get one compiled  and frankly the yearling I have in ore training would be lucky to attract an offer at a sale due to this

Who’s to say, I shouldn’t breed with my mare . As an “amateur” breeder with a love for my horse, I try and follow the “experts”
A number of pedigree analysis professional companies recommended the matings that I have used very highly and I’ve used some of my own thoughts as well In some cases.

Who’s going to decide if I’m allowed to breed with my mareLOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 7:07pm
Follow the narrative.

No-one here has decided whether you or anyone else is allowed to breed with your, his or her mare. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 7:10pm
If they put rules in place that suggest a mare or colt must reach certain standards to be in  the studbook I would not have an issue with that. 

We all remember billionaire Fleming was not allowed to breed from one of his great mares due to issues that really would not have any effect on the good of the breed. 

Unless, Shrunk your mare is producing genetic deformations I see no reason to stop you or others. That said, I also agree with Sister Dote. 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Follow the narrative.

No-one here has decided whether you or anyone else is allowed to breed with your, his or her mare. 



However the narrative is clear, If the breed is to improve than limitations on entry to studbook are what is being talked about.






reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Follow the narrative.

No-one here has decided whether you or anyone else is allowed to breed with your, his or her mare. 



Follow your own words

 Far too many ill-bred mares are being covered, far too many mares with physical weaknesses are being covered, and far too many slow mares are being bred.

You clearly think certain mares shouldn’t be bred with. As Djebel said, who will be the arbiter of these decisions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:



Unless, Shrunk your mare is producing genetic deformations I see no reason to stop you or others. That said, 

Some of the progeny have had confirmation issues but is that the stallions fault, the mares faults or a raising environment issue.

It seems to me it’s easy to sit back and pontificate about things like “some mares should be bred with” but actually putting that belief into practice and setting out some rules is pie inthe sky stuff, surely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2021 at 7:28pm
The industry makes arbitrary rules all the time.

Let's face it there is no real reason not to have AI but we do.

So if they can have a ruling against AI they can have a rule against certain generic traits.






reductio ad absurdum



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