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Japanese Racing
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Carioca View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

So Soulcombe would perhaps run superior times in Japan, given his timer can be started by another? Big smile
Superior time in certain splits I would assume , but not overall .
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Yes, overall. Every horse is timed from when the 1st one breaks the beam Smile
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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Ridiculous situation 
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It's different, it's hardly ridiculous. I have no idea why they made it difficult for themselves but as long as every timing start in that country is the same it's a non issue.

I am however like most others, why not just time from when the gates open ? 
reductio ad absurdum
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Couldn't agree more , sometimes the simplest things are so hard to get everyone to come on board . Confused
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The race starts when the gates open. To me the logical thinking would be to start the timer when the gates open = that's the start of the race. 

Oh well that's how they do it in Japan, just different to everyone else.
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This shows the elevation changes of Japanese racecourses, course length, course width in metres.
All courses are ovals.  Pancake flat courses, always hard ground, plenty of slipstreaming, room to challlenge, and the timing does not start when the stalls open.

Epsom (UK) 1.5 mile course (2400m) rises 134 feet (41 metres) in the first 1200 metres.
Those 10 Japanese courses rise 28.8 metres taken all together.


Course Height Length Width
Tokyo 2.5 2,083 41
Nakayama 5.0 1,840 32
Kyoto 4.2 1,894 38
Hanshin 2.1 2,089 28
Chukyo 3.4 1,706 30
Fukashima 2.0 1,600 27
Niigata 2.1 2,223 25
Kokuru 3.3 1,615 30
Sapporo 0.5 1,641 27
Hakodate 3.7 1,627 29
Average 2.9 1,832 30.7
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Equinox retired to stud 
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Japan's longest flat stakes race, the G2 Stayers Stakes (3600m) Iron Barows  (19/1). Last year he finished 2nd in the event.
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The Gr1 Hanshin Juvenile Fillies has been won by Ascoli Piceno (2f Daiwa Major x Ascolti, by Danehill Dancer) defeating Stellenbosch & Corazon Beat.

Ascoli Piceno had previously won the Gr2 Niigata Nisai Stakes. She is beautifully bred from a very successful Coolmore line. These are her damline details.
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The Gr1 Asahi Hai Futurity Stakes has been won by the favourite, Jantar Mantar (2c Palace Malice x India Mantuana, by Wilburn) defeating Ecoro Walz & Tagano Elpida.

At his previous start, Jantar Mantar won the Gr Daily Hai Nisai Stakes. These are his damline details.
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Thanks GA.

Dam line full of obscure stallions and bloodlines, at least to my mind.
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Yes SC, they are a bit obscure.
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A query here - Why do you say obscure?

Dam India Mantuana - sired by Wilburn (9 starts - 5 wins) who won G2 Indiana Derby an go throud retired as usual at 3. His sire goes through Bernardini who goes back to Seattle Slew.

Great Dam Speed Wagon's sire Tomorrow's Cat goes back to Storm Cat and has also Secretariat in the 6th generation through his golden daughter Terlingua.

The Japanese have done a wonderful job on the outer fringes updating the broodmare stock and the result bear interesting fruits....

This horse could easily have been running back in Kentucky.
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Wilburn - 410 foals 9 stakeswinners, best progeny is Lovely Bernadette, a G2 winner although India Mantuana was a G3 winner

Tomorrow's Cat - 528 foals 11 stakeswinners, no G1 winners

There are thousands of well-performed stallions with good bloodlines but most are still obscure.
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And being "obscure" is not necessarily a negative. Just that are not that well-known.
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Thanks for your clarification.

I see you focus is in the dam's 2nd & 3rd generation line.

I was more interested in seeing what the further generations reveal.
The dam's 4th generation sires were not shabby.
El Baba - Undefeated 2YO, Wins G2 Louisiana Derby, 2nd G1 Arkansas Derby
Storm Cat - 3 time Nth American Broodmare Sire leader
Carson City - Multiple graded winner
A.P. Indy -  Nth American Broodmare Sire leader
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Great article from djebel on their industry Thumbs Up
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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I guess we have a different definition of obscure. I am using "of no prominence or distinction" & feel that describes Wilburn & Tomorrow's Cat as stallions. Obviously, we are not suggesting that Storm Cat, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Carson City or A.P. Indy fall into this category.

Nearly all thoroughbreds will have many important names in their first 5 generations & I don't see that their presence in any way negates the assertion that there are obscure stallions in Jantar Mantar's pedigree.
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Do Duece ahead of Sundays big one.



reductio ad absurdum
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Through Seven Seas is the one I want to back on form, but on this photo I am not so sure.
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There appears to be a clear sameness about the condition of Japanese horses pre-race, ie they certainly don't carry an ounce of extra.
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Sol Oriens
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Originally posted by Grey Affair Grey Affair wrote:

....I don't see that their presence in any way negates the assertion that there are obscure stallions in Jantar Mantar's pedigree.



US Bloodhorse magazine was quick to pick on the bloodlines of Jantar Mantar after his victory.

Jantar Mantar was bred by Shadai Farm but his pedigree is all-American. His dam, India Mantuana , is a daughter of Wilburn  while his sire is a son of Curlin .

The victory was especially good news for Darley in Japan, who announced earlier in the week the acquisition of 2013 Belmont Stakes (G1) winner Palace Malice to stand in Japan starting with the 2024 season. Palace Malice previously stood at Three Chimneys Farm in Kentucky, where he sired 2019 Breeders' Cup Juvenile (G1) winner Structor from his first crop.

Jantar Mantar now stands at the top of his sire's progeny list and will carry the Palace Malice reputation as he moves into his 3-year-old season.


https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/273995/jantar-mantar-remains-undefeated-with-futurity-victory
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Palace Malice's half-brothers are very well performed in Japan. Justin Palace is a G1 winner & Iron Barows a G2 winner. So, Palace Malice should prove popular at stud in Japan.
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Interesting to note that the Arima Kinen field today features just one runner who also ran in the Japan Cup.  That runner being the aformentioned (by djebel) Through Seven Seas, beaten 26.4L in the earlier race.
The worlds oldest fossil was discovered in Australia, they named it Rupert Murdoch.
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Did you get that from the tab FORM Guide ?

Through Seven Seas last run was in the Arc she is also a she.

The Tabform guide, for her at least is all wrong.
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Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Through Seven Seas is the one I want to back on form, but on this photo I am not so sure.



She has a nicer shine to her coat today.
reductio ad absurdum
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Through Seven Seas was absolutely butchered. I will have watch the race again to judge the whole race.
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The Gr1 Arima Kinen has been won by Do Deuce (4h Heart's Cry x Dust And Diamonds, by Vindication) who defeated Stars On Earth & Titleholder.

In 2022, Do Deuce won the Gp1 Tokyo Yushun (Japanese Derby) & in 2021 the Gr1 Asahi Hai Futurity Stakes.
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