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Housing

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 5:29pm

The beginning of the end of affordable housing in Australia happened in 2000.

Before then, the median house price was 3.5 times average household income, and house prices had been increasing at roughly the same rate, on average, as both incomes and GDP, or 3-4 per cent per annum.

In 2000, house prices went from increasing at roughly the same rate as both incomes and the economy, to double that rate, or an average of 6-7 per cent per annum, compound.

...

As dozens of reviews, studies and inquiries have found, there are many causes of Australia’s housing affordability crisis, in particular immigration and restrictions on supply from NIMBYism and poor transport.

But the crisis began in 2000, so the first question that must be answered in any examination of it is – what happened in 1999? Confused

The answer is that the rate of capital gains tax (CGT) was halved in September that year by John Howard and Peter Costello.

The idea was a recommendation in the Review of Business Taxation conducted by three businessmen who would benefit from it – John Ralph, Rick Allert and Bob Joss. In other words, it was not independent, but conflicted.

As I write in the Quarterly Essay: “That was a big, radical tax reform in itself, but it was Australia’s unique system of negative gearing plus the abolition of inheritance taxes twenty years earlier that really made it work.”

The 50 per cent CGT discount supercharged the impact of negative gearing and led to investment property becoming everyone’s tax dodge.


Alan Kohler

...

https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2023/11/27/housing-capital-albanese-chalmers


https://www.quarterlyessay.com.au/essay/2023/11/the-great-divide/extract


An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

Groundhog Day of irrelevance 


You're too far gone. Please ignore the facts.Tongue
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 5:36pm
Never denied those facts. Are you that thick that you haven’t comprehended that the 100 times I’ve said it.

Yes, the ratio makes it so much harder but with the real desire it’s achievable.

 I comment in the litany I& affordable housing I have shown you?…..I know why you haven’t Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 5:37pm


 No comment on the litany of affordable housing I have shown you?…..I know why you haven’t Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 5:40pm
Sorry, 1 or infrequently 2 bedroom rentals of about 5 squares each in dated Western Sydney buildings doesn't quite cut it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 5:43pm
Try getting one of plastic's $600 a week places. There's probably 50 people lined up for every one.
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Sorry, 1 or infrequently 2 bedroom rentals of about 5 squares each in dated Western Sydney buildings doesn't quite cut it.

What a load of rubbish and greedy self centred sop. Perfectly nice and acceptable dwellings. Darling & Epping western Sydney…..you didn’t even lookLOL 

But  hey, not 2 minutes from your work and your SUV and 85 inch LED may take up too much room.Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 6:33pm
Well I'm living it with my children and they were accused of lack of motivation to work.  Which I proved was untrue but no response to that reply. 

Well a flat with three beds in Potts Point goes for $1425 furnished.  That seems to be three times what I earn a week.

Or in my area a 4 bed going for $800 or $750 a week.  Only $300 over what I earn.  Or a three bed apartment in the same area going for $650 a week.  Still $150 over my salary at the moment.

Well I could afford a 2 bed for $430 or another for $500 but then I wouldn't eat or pay any bills.

And yes I've looked the above properties up online as I'm not looking to rent at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Sorry, 1 or infrequently 2 bedroom rentals of about 5 squares each in dated Western Sydney buildings doesn't quite cut it.

What a load of rubbish and greedy self centred sop. Perfectly nice and acceptable dwellings. Darling & Epping western Sydney…..you didn’t even lookLOL   But  hey, not 2 minutes from your work and your SUV and 85 inch LED may take up too much room.Wink 

Forget the smiley faces, bottom line is they're tiny flats in awful buildings for the most part in very ordinary suburbs.  Something a single person could afford but otherwise a useless amenity for a couple let alone a family.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 7:38pm
You’re right. Vaucluse, with views, 6 beds and a Bentley.
Just what they should walk intoLOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 7:41pm
So tell me SC, seeing as tlaz & Afros won’t, what should a couple in their early or mid twenties have for their first home.
Give me an example of a suburb and price with associated lifestyle 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 7:49pm
Tiny flat in an awful building. Your kiddingLOL

$600 per week



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 7:56pm
$520 per week
Carlingford, one of your awful suburbs. What a hovel….totally unliveable LOL











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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 7:57pm
I can do that.  I have a daughter who because she is a tour guide can't get a loan.  She saves and is up to $100K but can't afford anything.

Most go to  auction but the few in the district.  Kingswood (a cheaper area to Emu Plains) a 3 bed house $880K to $920,000.  A three bed a Cranebrook $848,000.  Another under contract $829,000-$879,000. 

But plenty also over the $1,000,000.  And we are a good hour away from Sydney on the fast train (missing lots of stops).  Not near the beaches or the sea breezes.  But we bought out here at the foot of the mountains because it is a greener area than around Blacktown or Parramatta.  And we love the mountains.

But both daughters looking to get into the market can't get a good enough loan from the banks.  As I said one was told to go get married!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 7:59pm
And your $520 a week is over what I earn also so I'd still be in trouble.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 8:12pm
Furious, that’s a wonderful effort to save that. She should be praised

What’s wrong with 5 to 10 minutes  down 5he road towards the city. A great townhouse. 
From what you’ve mentioned , she’s young. Nothing wrong with this as a starter.
Easier if she has a partner
Only 550 to 590k

Nice units are even cheaper




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 10:01pm
Why are houses/homes/shelters seen as wealth ?

Do you think when man was first coming out of caves and building shelters they were considering gee these will be worth some money one day. What about all the houses built in London post war, does anyone think gee this house will be worth a lot of money soon I should buy loads of them, what about the yurts in Siberia ? why are peoples homes seen as wealth ? its like if someone bought loads of butchers and only people with enough money could afford to go to them, Accumulating homes as wealth is wrong, homes should basically be worthless, everyone should be entitled to shelter and lots or people buying them and drip feeding them only to people who can afford to rent them short term are allowed inside. Even then they can be kicked out if they don't pay the rising rents. 

Homes/shelters should not be allowed to accumulated as wealth, we are standing at the precipice of something really bad if we allow this to go on. At some point soon house prices will 3 times what they are now , and soon after that more and more and more. We are basically saying we are alright with homelessness. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rusty nails Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

Furious, that’s a wonderful effort to save that. She should be praised

What’s wrong with 5 to 10 minutes  down 5he road towards the city. A great townhouse. 
From what you’ve mentioned , she’s young. Nothing wrong with this as a starter.
Easier if she has a partner
Only 550 to 590k

Nice units are even cheaper




According to SBS news.
The amount of currently advertised rental listing’s that essential workers CAN’T afford are:
Ambos 97.6%
Nurses 98.5%
Construction workers 98.7%
Aged care workers 98.9%
Early childhood workers 99.1%
Hospitality workers 99.1%

That’s beyond a crisis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

$520 per week
Carlingford, one of your awful suburbs. What a hovel….totally unliveable LOL












I saw lots of these when I was looking recently, its not what you think, when you go to view, you get 30 mins max, you have to sign up to view before you go there or you can't view. Once you get there, there will be hundreds of people cuing up, you have to apply to the estate agent on line before viewing, then you can have your name checked off before going in. Once you view, you are sent a link, that link will take you to hell basically. 

Hell : The application process is extremely tedious and long. It's complicated, long, exhausting and very intrusive. You have to download several apps and sign up for certain things. this part nearly broke me it really did. Also you have to provide a credit/criminal check that is done through a specific app that each  particular estate agent is using, and it costs $24.95 to do. You cannot apply for the place without this check. The application software form won't let you proceed until you have provided paid for and downloaded the check. Then you have to provide references for the entirety of your rental life, photographed/downloaded and send as files through the application. Passport photos, licence photos, electricity and gas bills, personal references, work references, and bank statements going back at least 2 years, showing your salary/wages. Should you somehow make it this far, then you must provide a 1000 word essay, why you should have the place, also provide all your work history, hobbies, interests, partners names, family names, pets name and photo's of you and whoever is living there, plus photos of your pets and provide all their papers like registration and vet chips etc.. You cannot continue the application unless each section is completed. The download image part was particularly frustrating as they have to be a particular size or the software doesn't accept them. 

^ That is a brief overview of the application process, there is more I have forgotten, now imagine you have to do this for every property you view, and each agent has a different application form and each agent uses a different app/company to search for your criminal/credit check, so you have to pay up each application you lodge. Plus pay 6 weeks bond up front, you must lodge it with rental board and create a profile and security number, then provide your estate agent with proof of this, A $500 bond also when moving should you be lucky enough to even get the place, paid to building management should you park illegally or damage anything when moving furniture in or out. Plus sort out removals and organise power and NBN being put on and make sure its all in your name and is working. 

There is also the fact that people bid to pay more so they can have the place, you are competing with 50 to 100 people every place asking if they can pay more to have the place. The photos always make the places look nicer than they are, this was something that shocked me so much, you cannot see what the place is really like in the photos, usually they are much dirtier than you see in the photos.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2023 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

The beginning of the end of affordable housing in Australia happened in 2000.

Before then, the median house price was 3.5 times average household income, and house prices had been increasing at roughly the same rate, on average, as both incomes and GDP, or 3-4 per cent per annum.

In 2000, house prices went from increasing at roughly the same rate as both incomes and the economy, to double that rate, or an average of 6-7 per cent per annum, compound.

...

As dozens of reviews, studies and inquiries have found, there are many causes of Australia’s housing affordability crisis, in particular immigration and restrictions on supply from NIMBYism and poor transport.

But the crisis began in 2000, so the first question that must be answered in any examination of it is – what happened in 1999? Confused

The answer is that the rate of capital gains tax (CGT) was halved in September that year by John Howard and Peter Costello.

The idea was a recommendation in the Review of Business Taxation conducted by three businessmen who would benefit from it – John Ralph, Rick Allert and Bob Joss. In other words, it was not independent, but conflicted.

As I write in the Quarterly Essay: “That was a big, radical tax reform in itself, but it was Australia’s unique system of negative gearing plus the abolition of inheritance taxes twenty years earlier that really made it work.”

The 50 per cent CGT discount supercharged the impact of negative gearing and led to investment property becoming everyone’s tax dodge.


Alan Kohler

...

https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2023/11/27/housing-capital-albanese-chalmers


https://www.quarterlyessay.com.au/essay/2023/11/the-great-divide/extract



What happened was people were shown through various media like TV/social media etc that buying and fixing up cheap places can make you loads of money fast. Shows like the block and various others promoted people this shttty notion of buying up cheap places, renovating them and doubling their prices to make healthy profit. Soon every idiot with access to money was running about buying any cheap place they could, a quick lick of paint, some fantastic furniture and boom sell it off for a huge profit and go buy 3 or 4 more to do the same again. This IS WHAT HAPPENED and its plague it really is. 


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[/QUOTE]

I saw lots of these when I was looking recently, its not what you think, when you go to view, you get 30 mins max, you have to sign up to view before you go there or you can't view. Once you get there, there will be hundreds of people cuing up, you have to apply to the estate agent on line before viewing, then you can have your name checked off before going in. Once you view, you are sent a link, that link will take you to hell basically. 

Hell : The application process is extremely tedious and long. It's complicated, long, exhausting and very intrusive. You have to download several apps and sign up for certain things. this part nearly broke me it really did. Also you have to provide a credit/criminal check that is done through a specific app that each  particular estate agent is using, and it costs $24.95 to do. You cannot apply for the place without this check. The application software form won't let you proceed until you have provided paid for and downloaded the check. Then you have to provide references for the entirety of your rental life, photographed/downloaded and send as files through the application. Passport photos, licence photos, electricity and gas bills, personal references, work references, and bank statements going back at least 2 years, showing your salary/wages. Should you somehow make it this far, then you must provide a 1000 word essay, why you should have the place, also provide all your work history, hobbies, interests, partners names, family names, pets name and photo's of you and whoever is living there, plus photos of your pets and provide all their papers like registration and vet chips etc.. You cannot continue the application unless each section is completed. The download image part was particularly frustrating as they have to be a particular size or the software doesn't accept them. 

^ That is a brief overview of the application process, there is more I have forgotten, now imagine you have to do this for every property you view, and each agent has a different application form and each agent uses a different app/company to search for your criminal/credit check, so you have to pay up each application you lodge. Plus pay 6 weeks bond up front, you must lodge it with rental board and create a profile and security number, then provide your estate agent with proof of this, A $500 bond also when moving should you be lucky enough to even get the place, paid to building management should you park illegally or damage anything when moving furniture in or out. Plus sort out removals and organise power and NBN being put on and make sure its all in your name and is working. 

There is also the fact that people bid to pay more so they can have the place, you are competing with 50 to 100 people every place asking if they can pay more to have the place. The photos always make the places look nicer than they are, this was something that shocked me so much, you cannot see what the place is really like in the photos, usually they are much dirtier than you see in the photos.   
[/QUOTE]
I feel for anyone that is subjected to this process.
It’s really an indicator of a failed state.
It’s just not right.
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I was lucky I got my place on the 4th go, I had failed at 3 others and was really starting to panic, anyone who is not absolutely up to speed with technology and using phones, apps etc is going to feel like the world is against them. It consumed me day and night and I lost a lot of sleep going through this process, only to know that one day I might have to do it all again..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2023 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

So tell me SC, seeing as tlaz & Afros won’t, what should a couple in their early or mid twenties have for their first home.
Give me an example of a suburb and price with associated lifestyle 


I only looked a couple of your rental suggestions. For a couple with no children the 67 square metre 1 bedroom at Parra looked ok. How much to buy? 500-600k. The point is they will be paying twice as much of their income as you did for the same type of thing.

Twice - double - it's not a difficult maths concept that you seem incapable of understanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2023 at 8:07am
The strongest argument for Florida is that it continues to attract people, albeit at a slower rate than in the past century, while California lost residents in 2021 and 2022. People voted with their feet. One factor pushing people from California is ridiculously high housing prices. The median listing price for single-family homes in October was 62 percent higher in California than in Florida. Newsom is chipping away at the housing shortage and the closely related problem of homelessness, but he has a ways to go.

An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Plastic letters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2023 at 8:44am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

So tell me SC, seeing as tlaz & Afros won’t, what should a couple in their early or mid twenties have for their first home.
Give me an example of a suburb and price with associated lifestyle 


I only looked a couple of your rental suggestions. For a couple with no children the 67 square metre 1 bedroom at Parra looked ok. How much to buy? 500-600k. 
They were 2 bedrooms and perfectly fine for a starting point……a point lost on you who wants it all on a platter


The point is they will be paying twice as much of their income as you did for the same type of thing.

Twice - double - it's not a difficult maths concept that you seem incapable of understanding.

No, it’s you who is incapable of reading. I’ve Clearly stated I realise the % has increased but there are still affordable options if you aren’t driven by greed. As has always been the case.



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Its is funny how things change. We actually owned a 2 bedroom unit as an investment property in Carlingford (opposite Carlingford shopping Centre on Pennant Hills Road). We purchased it about 25 years prior. We had a few very long-term quality tenants over that period - then all of a sudden it got much harder to lease. A surge in unit construction in the area obviously contributed. For the first time we had to take a modest decrease - & the tenant quality was not as good. 

It just became a nightmare so we sold it about 6 years ago - a decision we don't regret. For the following few years rents plummeted around here & there were vacancies everywhere. I know full well as both my kids at the time were in the rental market. This has all obviously swung back again over the past 3 or 4 years. 

My point is  - things swing backwards & forwards quite quickly. Hopefully it will happen again.
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Giving up all your personal data to various estate agents and software platforms is not alright. 
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True Fiddler

The sad reality in this country is that tenants have always been treated as second class citizens. Real estate Agents are obviously pro-owner - although some are obviously better than others.

It really does come down to the owners as to what deal you end up with. We always took the approach of looking after good tenants. Not just for the tenant either. Changing tenants in itself can be a costly high risk process - so better to have a reduced rental payment with less volatility. 

In the current market this approach may well be becoming less likely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2023 at 9:38am
Citizens here have been cultivated from an early age that property investment is a money making machine

You reap what you sow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2023 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Originally posted by Plastic letters Plastic letters wrote:

So tell me SC, seeing as tlaz & Afros won’t, what should a couple in their early or mid twenties have for their first home.
Give me an example of a suburb and price with associated lifestyle 


I only looked a couple of your rental suggestions. For a couple with no children the 67 square metre 1 bedroom at Parra looked ok. How much to buy? 500-600k. 
They were 2 bedrooms and perfectly fine for a starting point……a point lost on you who wants it all on a platter


The point is they will be paying twice as much of their income as you did for the same type of thing.

Twice - double - it's not a difficult maths concept that you seem incapable of understanding.

No, it’s you who is incapable of reading. I’ve Clearly stated I realise the % has increased but there are still affordable options if you aren’t driven by greed. As has always been the case.

How can you simultaneously understand the problem as you claim and continue to push the line that people just need to aim lower?

You do understand the problem is through the entire market, not just at the top don't you? 

You also do understand that that with everyone coming into the market at a lower point than their traditional level is just putting upward pressure on the bottom end of the market, don't you?

Still trying to understand if you are just obtuse by nature or doing so deliberately here.
Seeing Manchester United relegated would mean more than words can describe to me.
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