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Group 1 Australian Derby 2400m

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Afros View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 6:02am
Race 7 - 3:15PM BENTLEY AUSTRALIAN DERBY [GROUP 1] (2400 METRES)Times displayed in local time of Race Meeting
Of $2,000,000.1st $1,160,000, 2nd $380,000, 3rd $195,000, 4th $90,000, 5th $45,000, 6th $20,000, 7th $20,000, 8th $20,000, 9th $15,000, 10th $15,000, Equine Welfare Fund $20,000, Jockey Welfare Fund $20,000. GROUP 1
Set Weights, Three-Years-Old, Apprentices cannot claim.

Track Name: Randwick Track Type: Turf

Field Limit: 18 + 4 EM

NoLast 10HorseTrainerJockeyBarrierWeightProbable WeightPenaltyHcp Rating
11x2112x514LION’S ROAR (NZ)John O'SheaBrenton Avdulla1356.5kg104
2124512111ROCKET SPADELance O'Sullivan & Andrew ScottKerrin McEvoy256.5kg104
35321x1142SKY LABPaul PerryJames McDonald656.5kg100
453721528MILFORD (NZ)Stephen MarshDamien Oliver756.5kg95
519238THE FRONTMAN (NZ)Murray Baker & Andrew ForsmanHugh Bowman856.5kg88
61x241YALETOWNGai Waterhouse & Adrian BottTim Clark1056.5kg86
7123x7523YOUNG WERTHER (NZ)Danny O'BrienTom Marquand1456.5kg86
812x7612x36KHOEKHOEMatt CumaniCraig Williams356.5kg83
94x64531222PROMPT PRODIGY (NZ)Edward CummingsMs Rachel King956.5kg78
10151132EXPLOSIVE JACK (NZ)Ciaron Maher & David EustaceJohn Allen1556.5kg76
1122x1132135TOSCANINICiaron Maher & David EustaceMs Jamie Kah556.5kg75
12x7345x4114FAVREAU (NZ)John SargentTommy Berry1656.5kg72
13321419RONDINOGregory HickmanKeagan Latham1156.5kg61
1464x9431466ZAKSPEEDWendy RocheAndrew Adkins1256.5kg60
15422x174104OLYMPIC GAZEPaul PerryDamian Lane156.5kg59
16x314113x63MONTEFILIADavid PayneJason Collett454.5kg106
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Take2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 1:00pm
Poor edition this year (in my opinion), anything can win this
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Tassie Derby form
Always was, always will be
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 6:26pm
Okay just a question.

This race's last five editions have rated extremely poorly so do we see or are we in danger of seeing this race lose its group 1 status.

I dot think so, but if races like the Brisbane Cup and Adelaide Cup have lost their group 1 status due to the five year ratings then why is this race getting a pass mark?

2020 = Absolutely no group 1 form from it what so ever.
2019 = A few group 1 place getters but not one has looked like getting near a group 1 win since.
2018 = Not one of these race horses has been sighted in a group 1.
2017 = You know your derby's edition is pretty poor when So Si Bon has been the highlight since.
2016 = Hip Hip Hooray finally a worthy derby runner in Jameka, but again no one else has troubled the scorer at group 1 level.

This is the anomaly in the race status in Australia. 

You can not lower the grade of a race which has poor ratings for the last five years and then not lower a race's grading, when they also have poor rating editions.

You have to treat all races the same, but alas that might be too much logic for the administrators to understand.   
 
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 6:56pm
Quick Thinker won the Gp2 Chaiman's today and is in the Sydney Cup with a great chance.
Angel of Truth has since been placed at Gp1 level in the Metrop and Ranvet.
Levendi has since won at Group level.
Jon Snow is since multiple Gp1 placed.

And that's just the winners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacko1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 8:58pm
The last five years has seen a big decrease in the quality of horse winning. The 3yo crop has been woeful this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 9:01pm
It's a modernism, if they show any speed they are not allowed to stay. 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Magnolian Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2021 at 9:13pm
Anything with a glimpse of talent is cashed in to HK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 6:44am
Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

Okay just a question.

This race's last five editions have rated extremely poorly so do we see or are we in danger of seeing this race lose its group 1 status.

I dot think so, but if races like the Brisbane Cup and Adelaide Cup have lost their group 1 status due to the five year ratings then why is this race getting a pass mark?

2020 = Absolutely no group 1 form from it what so ever.
2019 = A few group 1 place getters but not one has looked like getting near a group 1 win since.
2018 = Not one of these race horses has been sighted in a group 1.
2017 = You know your derby's edition is pretty poor when So Si Bon has been the highlight since.
2016 = Hip Hip Hooray finally a worthy derby runner in Jameka, but again no one else has troubled the scorer at group 1 level.

This is the anomaly in the race status in Australia. 

You can not lower the grade of a race which has poor ratings for the last five years and then not lower a race's grading, when they also have poor rating editions.

You have to treat all races the same, but alas that might be too much logic for the administrators to understand.   
 

To many G1 Derby and Oaks races this time of year, this lot can race for $600k and another G1 in 4 weeks at Morphettville and another 5 weeks after that for another $600k and a G1 at Eagle Farm.  Thankfully common sense started to prevail when Ascot's version became a G2 and maybe 2 of the 3 remaining at G1 level need to go down to G2 level to force the top liners to go to the G1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 8:27am
How would Mo'unga have gone if he had run in The Derby?

I think better than he did in The Doncaster.

Why dont trainer's let stayers be stayers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExceedAndExcel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 8:35am
Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

Okay just a question.

This race's last five editions have rated extremely poorly so do we see or are we in danger of seeing this race lose its group 1 status.

I dot think so, but if races like the Brisbane Cup and Adelaide Cup have lost their group 1 status due to the five year ratings then why is this race getting a pass mark?

2020 = Absolutely no group 1 form from it what so ever.
2019 = A few group 1 place getters but not one has looked like getting near a group 1 win since.
2018 = Not one of these race horses has been sighted in a group 1.
2017 = You know your derby's edition is pretty poor when So Si Bon has been the highlight since.
2016 = Hip Hip Hooray finally a worthy derby runner in Jameka, but again no one else has troubled the scorer at group 1 level.

This is the anomaly in the race status in Australia. 

You can not lower the grade of a race which has poor ratings for the last five years and then not lower a race's grading, when they also have poor rating editions.

You have to treat all races the same, but alas that might be too much logic for the administrators to understand.   
 

To many G1 Derby and Oaks races this time of year, this lot can race for $600k and another G1 in 4 weeks at Morphettville and another 5 weeks after that for another $600k and a G1 at Eagle Farm.  Thankfully common sense started to prevail when Ascot's version became a G2 and maybe 2 of the 3 remaining at G1 level need to go down to G2 level to force the top liners to go to the G1.


How many of those should actually be group 1? Reckon there is a fair argument that the VRC & ATC versions are the only ones deserving. 
http://amex.com.au/refer/jAMESHrVbk?CPID=100427067

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacko1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 10:08am
Originally posted by mikey mikey wrote:

How would Mo'unga have gone if he had run in The Derby?

I think better than he did in The Doncaster.

Why dont trainer's let stayers be stayers?


It's about stud value sadly. If he had won the Derby well he could have had a chance to tackle the Cups. Instead we'll never know if he could have been a great stayer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by ExceedAndExcel ExceedAndExcel wrote:

Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

Okay just a question.

This race's last five editions have rated extremely poorly so do we see or are we in danger of seeing this race lose its group 1 status.

I dot think so, but if races like the Brisbane Cup and Adelaide Cup have lost their group 1 status due to the five year ratings then why is this race getting a pass mark?

2020 = Absolutely no group 1 form from it what so ever.
2019 = A few group 1 place getters but not one has looked like getting near a group 1 win since.
2018 = Not one of these race horses has been sighted in a group 1.
2017 = You know your derby's edition is pretty poor when So Si Bon has been the highlight since.
2016 = Hip Hip Hooray finally a worthy derby runner in Jameka, but again no one else has troubled the scorer at group 1 level.

This is the anomaly in the race status in Australia. 

You can not lower the grade of a race which has poor ratings for the last five years and then not lower a race's grading, when they also have poor rating editions.

You have to treat all races the same, but alas that might be too much logic for the administrators to understand.   
 

To many G1 Derby and Oaks races this time of year, this lot can race for $600k and another G1 in 4 weeks at Morphettville and another 5 weeks after that for another $600k and a G1 at Eagle Farm.  Thankfully common sense started to prevail when Ascot's version became a G2 and maybe 2 of the 3 remaining at G1 level need to go down to G2 level to force the top liners to go to the G1.


How many of those should actually be group 1? Reckon there is a fair argument that the VRC & ATC versions are the only ones deserving. 

To be honest I think there should be only 1 G1 Derby, at present we have 4 and only 3 G1s for open age over the same distance, absolutely crazy.

The same goes for Oaks, Guineas etc.  To many 3yo G1 options that allow horses to retire as multiple G1 winners without even facing outside their own age.  (E.g. The Autumn Sun)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

Originally posted by ExceedAndExcel ExceedAndExcel wrote:

Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

Okay just a question.

This race's last five editions have rated extremely poorly so do we see or are we in danger of seeing this race lose its group 1 status.

I dot think so, but if races like the Brisbane Cup and Adelaide Cup have lost their group 1 status due to the five year ratings then why is this race getting a pass mark?

2020 = Absolutely no group 1 form from it what so ever.
2019 = A few group 1 place getters but not one has looked like getting near a group 1 win since.
2018 = Not one of these race horses has been sighted in a group 1.
2017 = You know your derby's edition is pretty poor when So Si Bon has been the highlight since.
2016 = Hip Hip Hooray finally a worthy derby runner in Jameka, but again no one else has troubled the scorer at group 1 level.

This is the anomaly in the race status in Australia. 

You can not lower the grade of a race which has poor ratings for the last five years and then not lower a race's grading, when they also have poor rating editions.

You have to treat all races the same, but alas that might be too much logic for the administrators to understand.   
 

To many G1 Derby and Oaks races this time of year, this lot can race for $600k and another G1 in 4 weeks at Morphettville and another 5 weeks after that for another $600k and a G1 at Eagle Farm.  Thankfully common sense started to prevail when Ascot's version became a G2 and maybe 2 of the 3 remaining at G1 level need to go down to G2 level to force the top liners to go to the G1.


How many of those should actually be group 1? Reckon there is a fair argument that the VRC & ATC versions are the only ones deserving. 

To be honest I think there should be only 1 G1 Derby, at present we have 4 and only 3 G1s for open age over the same distance, absolutely crazy.

The same goes for Oaks, Guineas etc.  To many 3yo G1 options that allow horses to retire as multiple G1 winners without even racing outside their own age.  (E.g. The Autumn Sun)

Need an edit button mayor Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 3:19pm
Any chance of both Victorian and NSW derbies being downgraded to G2 or are they impervious to results?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 3:24pm
They are impervious to results,

And rightly so, 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 3:50pm
Was this a poor Derby ?

I am not so sure.

Is it a poor bunch of staying 3yos ?

I am not so sure.

Johnny Got Angry
Hit The Shot
Let's Karaka A Deel 
Cetshwayo 
Through Irish Eyes
Liqueuro
Ain'tnodeeldun

Are all promising and in some cases exciting stayers.


 





reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pardon_My_Dust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 4:01pm
Johnny Get Angry also looks the goods. LOL Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 4:02pm
Thank you. Embarrassed




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 4:02pm
The AUSTRALIAN Derby should be a Group 1. There's is no need for 3 other Derbies to be Group 1. Same for the Oaks.

You shouldn't be running a 3YO staying 'grand final' 3 months into the season (Vic) and you shouldn't be running a 'grand final' in April then another one in May then another one in June (Aus, SA, QLD).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 4:41pm
Although the VRC Oaks is arguably too early, there's no way it should be downgraded imo.

A clear majority of recent winners of this particular Oaks have gone on to win or compete at the highest level at 4 and 5: over the last 16 or so years we find Miami Bound, Jameka, Dear Demi, Faint Perfume, Brazilian Pulse, Miss Finland, Serenade Rose, Special Harmony.  Add in Pinot which never raced again and the brilliant Samantha Miss and it's a race that continues to produce genuine Group 1 gallopers.    

And go back anther generation and it's just the same: Kensington Palace, Saleous, Northwood Plume, Arborea, Tristanagh, Research the list goes on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacko1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2021 at 11:18pm
I agree. The difference between the oaks and derbies imo is that the top fillies tend to be aimed towards the Oaks because they value the G1 on the pedigree page whereas the good colts owners in recent years see it as a negative for their stallion career and so the race has dropped in quality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 5:44am
Yet Dundeel ran in two derbies, won 1 of them as well as a Spring Champion and a Roseghill Guineas and is shaping as a great stallion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 6:18pm
A point well made by Breednet.  

And thanks Gay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2021 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by jacko1 jacko1 wrote:

I agree. The difference between the oaks and derbies imo is that the top fillies tend to be aimed towards the Oaks because they value the G1 on the pedigree page whereas the good colts owners in recent years see it as a negative for their stallion career and so the race has dropped in quality.

Not sure if it's a negative or more so the other races are seen as a positive but yes 100% agree.
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