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Epsom Derby 2021 & 2023

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Carioca View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 8:04pm
2nd horse SP 66/1 too . 
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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Will cop flack but imo doubt this edition of 3yo's will ever go down in the annals.

As for the winner, he won the Gp2 Champions Juvenile Stakes at 2.  Sounds great but it was just a five horse field with no less than four starters trained by O'Brien.  And run in a truly pedestrian 1.45 for the mile: might just as well have been an inter-stable gallop over the downs.



Tell us more about the winner ?
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 8:57pm
Well he won the Derby from a 200/1 shot who'd previously won just a lowly maiden before finishing last but one at its most recent appearance before the Derby.  And the winner himself ran 12th in the 2000gns.

What other info do you need?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 9:08pm
You are embarrassing yourself.
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 9:14pm
Read my posts again where I arguably posted nothing other than fact. Unless of course you can somehow demonstrate otherwise.  Tick, tick, tick...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdaHunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Appears to be an ordinary edition.

Prior to the running of the race:

The winner had one solitary placing at Stakes level (at Gp 3 level)
The runner-up was a maiden with no Stakes performances whatsoever
The third place-getter had one Stakes performance, winning at Gp 2 level.

Hardly suggests it was a stellar edition.

How about this one 


2021 


Went on to be the first horse (3yo) in 20yrs since Galileo to go on n win the King George 


Adayar was only a maiden winner when he romped in the Derby !


Racing’s run on paper for those without eyes 😊



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:13pm
Hello,
interesting observation and conclusion about the startergate(s) at Epsom refering to "The Derby".

Thre are some difeerences than in Germany. Usually it#s runat Hasmburg (Horn) and the ground is used for Horse racing only a week during the every season. The number of starters is limited to 20.
If more horses are still in the starterlist the GAG (General handicap Mark) decide, whether the horse will start in the Classic Race.  

After the start all Jockeys are obliged to run straight on for 400 Meter (~ Quarter Mile) to avoid
indicents, after the distance, they run a long the rails or the outside. The straigt in Horn is 600 meter long.

regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Read my posts again where I arguably posted nothing other than fact. Unless of course you can somehow demonstrate otherwise.  Tick, tick, tick...


What was lowly about the King Of Steel maiden ?

And what did the winner do as a 2yo ?
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:20pm
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:21pm
Personally , I think the 2nd horse is aptly named . Star
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:28pm
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 10:54am
Originally posted by AdaHunta AdaHunta wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Appears to be an ordinary edition.

Prior to the running of the race:

The winner had one solitary placing at Stakes level (at Gp 3 level)
The runner-up was a maiden with no Stakes performances whatsoever
The third place-getter had one Stakes performance, winning at Gp 2 level.

Hardly suggests it was a stellar edition.

How about this one 


2021 


Went on to be the first horse (3yo) in 20yrs since Galileo to go on n win the King George 


Adayar was only a maiden winner when he romped in the Derby !


Racing’s run on paper for those without eyes 😊




The exceptions don't disprove the rule.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 11:28am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Read my posts again where I arguably posted nothing other than fact. Unless of course you can somehow demonstrate otherwise.  Tick, tick, tick...


What was lowly about the King Of Steel maiden ?  And what did the winner do as a 2yo ? 

As for the winner, he won the Gp2 Champions Juvenile Stakes at 2.  Sounds great but it was just a five horse field fact with no less than four of the five starters trained by O'Brien fact.  And run in a truly pedestrian 1.45 for the mile fact : might just as well have been an inter-stable gallop over the downs. fact

He won the Derby from a 100/1 shot who'd previously won just a lowly maiden fact at the 4th rate course Nottingham fact before finishing last but one at its most recent appearance before the Derby fact.  And the winner himself ran 12th in the 2000gns. fact



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 11:46am
You did qualify your original statement by saying you would cop flack.

Again what did Auguste Rodin do at 2 ? 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 12:24pm
He won the Gp 1 Vertem Futurity Trophy from 7 others.  The field split in two with horses coming down each rail.  1st, 2nd and 3rd all came down the outside suggesting they had a huge advantage.

He won the Gp2 Champions Juvenile.  As already stated, "Sounds great but it was just a five horse field with no less than four starters trained by O'Brien.  And run in a truly pedestrian 1.45 for the mile".

The four horses that filled the placings in those two races have since had a dozen starts or more between them and have racked up just one stakes victory, and that was in a 5-horse listed event at Naas which would be about the equivalent of a Melbourne BM78.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VSP. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 12:26pm
I quite like those 3yo's Second Chance. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few of them go on to major wins.
The winner looked special to me. But take on board what you say about 2nd horse, so perhaps you are right.
The next 12 months will tell us.
Wasn't the winner a smart Group 1 winner at 2 ? Beating a good field comfortably I thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 12:45pm
Yes, time will certainly tell VSP.  

Remembering what I did say at the outset was that ".... imo doubt this edition of 3yo's will ever go down in the annals." The winner might, but suspect 3/4 of the Derby field have already been booked in for the cruelest cut of all.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 1:52pm
Thank you for correcting yourself. 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 2:19pm
Get a life djebel. My first post said "imo doubt this edition of 3yo's will ever go down in the annals" and nowhere have I "corrected myself".

And just to refresh your memory: As for the winner, he won the Gp2 Champions Juvenile Stakes at 2.  Sounds great but it was just a five horse field fact with no less than four of the five starters trained by O'Brien fact.  And run in a truly pedestrian 1.45 for the mile fact : might just as well have been an inter-stable gallop over the downs. fact

He won the Derby from a 100/1 shot who'd previously won just a lowly maiden fact at the 4th rate course Nottingham fact before finishing last but one at its most recent appearance before the Derby fact.  And the winner himself ran 12th in the 2000gns. fact

He won the Gp 1 Vertem Futurity Trophy from 7 others.  The field split in two with horses coming down each rail.  1st, 2nd and 3rd all came down the outside suggesting they had a huge advantage.  He won the Gp2 Champions Juvenile.  As already stated, "Sounds great but it was just a five horse field with no less than four starters trained by O'Brien.  And run in a truly pedestrian 1.45 for the mile".


The four horses that filled the placings in those two races have since had a dozen starts or more between them and have racked up just one stakes victory, and that was in a 5-horse listed event at Naas which would be about the equivalent of a Melbourne BM78.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Get a life djebel. My first post said "imo doubt this edition of 3yo's will ever go down in the annals" and nowhere have I "corrected myself".

And just to refresh your memory: As for the winner, he won the Gp2 Champions Juvenile Stakes at 2.  Sounds great but it was just a five horse field fact with no less than four of the five starters trained by O'Brien fact.  And run in a truly pedestrian 1.45 for the mile fact : might just as well have been an inter-stable gallop over the downs. fact




Trained by O'Brien or an O'Brien ?

That 100/1 shot was entitled to improve from his 12 length defeat as a 2yo in group1 company over a mile to a June 3yo over 12 furlongs,

That 4th rate course, Nottingham is famous for where Henry Cecil liked kicking off his good horses careers. It might not conduct any super duper races but it is a better race track than 90% of ours.

Get a life ? You said you would cop flack and rightfully you have done.


reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdaHunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by AdaHunta AdaHunta wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Appears to be an ordinary edition.

Prior to the running of the race:

The winner had one solitary placing at Stakes level (at Gp 3 level)
The runner-up was a maiden with no Stakes performances whatsoever
The third place-getter had one Stakes performance, winning at Gp 2 level.

Hardly suggests it was a stellar edition.

How about this one 


2021 


Went on to be the first horse (3yo) in 20yrs since Galileo to go on n win the King George 


Adayar was only a maiden winner when he romped in the Derby !


Racing’s run on paper for those without eyes 😊




The exceptions don't disprove the rule.  Wink

Respect your option SC 


Auguste Rodins splits were pretty impressive tho imo


He’s quick !! 


Last 600 (33.01) faster then 4yo Corronation Cup G1 winner Emily Upjohn 


Showed great acceleration after the leader was off n gone 


Clocking sub 11s splits between the 600 - 200m mowing him down 


Thats a 3yo with a decent gearbox 


GUINEAS run prior a look away job for many runners on an yielding track which they continued to water 


Reckon this guys definately no flash in the pan especially on top of the ground 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 1:50am
reductio ad absurdum
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