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Melbourne Cup VRC Review/Soundness Protocols

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2021 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

In what way do we need to be better Jamal ?

Where are we deficient ? 

As you know we have become obssessed with speed.



All thoroughbreds need speed.

The best stayers on the planet have superior speed.

So my question remains - Where are we deficient ? 



Edited by djebel - 02 May 2021 at 7:55pm
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2021 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I agree with everything Max says. The Melbourne Cup used to be a uniquely Australian event that we all got involved in. Watching all the lead up races, trying to work out which horses will run the 3200 right out and of course having a saver on anything of Barts . Certainly was the good old days. It didn’t matter if most years the field was not that high a quality, it was a 2 mile handicap after all, it was fun! We don’t need overseas approval for anything we do with our racing. They all wish their racing was doing as well as ours on every level . Anyway something has to be done about the soft boned Europeans . The death rate is appalling.

An import just won the Doncaster. And oh yes, the All-Star mile...and the Chipping Norton, and the Cantala and the Makybe Diva. A kiwi won the Epsom. Our horses cant even run out a mile these days.

What are you smoking?!!?!
Hi Judge , just a reminder that an English horse It's Somewhat won the Doncaster in 2017 along with the American horse Secret Savings in 1997 , imported horses also won the Epsom in 2018 Hartnell , 2014 Here's Your Man , and 1977 Raffindale , it's no big deal , at least these horses remained sound which in the main topic of this thread, cheers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2021 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

In what way do we need to be better Jamal ?

Where are we deficient ? 

As you know we have become obssessed with speed.



All thoroughbreds need speed.

The best stayers on the planet have superior speed.

So my question remains - Where are we deficient ? 

The best stayers on the planet Do Not have superior speed , they have superior stamina , their bloodlines are superior .
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Every horse stays 4000m for them to win any race though they must have superior speed to their opposition.

If you do not think the likes of Stradivarious, Subjectivist or World Premiere do not have superior speed you are kidding yourself.
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2021 at 8:23pm
Like I said , it's not speed , it's the stamina required to Maintain the speed , at their prime who would you have your money on over a mile.....Herb Elliott or Usain Bolt , or over 100 metres Bolt or Elliott , it's the genes , the DNA , and the body shape , why do you think they give you a catalogue when you go to a yearling sale ?
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What speed are you maintaining if it is not speed ? 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2021 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

What speed are you maintaining if it is not speed ? 
You are running " within yourself" it is not speed , it's a rythmn your happy with , when pressure is applied it's the stamina that allows you to increase , if you didn't have that you decrease because the tank is running on MT.
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Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Every horse stays 4000m for them to win any race though they must have superior speed to their opposition.

If you do not think the likes of Stradivarious, Subjectivist or World Premiere do not have superior speed you are kidding yourself.

On first thought I would of thought a horse would need superior stamina to run 4000m ?
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2021 at 1:30am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

In what way do we need to be better Jamal ?

Where are we deficient ? 

As you know we have become obssessed with speed.



All thoroughbreds need speed.

The best stayers on the planet have superior speed.

So my question remains - Where are we deficient ? 


Breeding. Lack of staying races. Not many trainers seem to train a stayer good enough in Aust. Although Danny O"Brien is probably a trainer that stands out as a good trainer of stayers 
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2021 at 7:28am
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I agree with everything Max says. The Melbourne Cup used to be a uniquely Australian event that we all got involved in. Watching all the lead up races, trying to work out which horses will run the 3200 right out and of course having a saver on anything of Barts . Certainly was the good old days. It didn’t matter if most years the field was not that high a quality, it was a 2 mile handicap after all, it was fun! We don’t need overseas approval for anything we do with our racing. They all wish their racing was doing as well as ours on every level . Anyway something has to be done about the soft boned Europeans . The death rate is appalling.

An import just won the Doncaster. And oh yes, the All-Star mile...and the Chipping Norton, and the Cantala and the Makybe Diva. A kiwi won the Epsom. Our horses cant even run out a mile these days.

What are you smoking?!!?!
Hi Judge , just a reminder that an English horse It's Somewhat won the Doncaster in 2017 along with the American horse Secret Savings in 1997 , imported horses also won the Epsom in 2018 Hartnell , 2014 Here's Your Man , and 1977 Raffindale , it's no big deal , at least these horses remained sound which in the main topic of this thread, cheers.

We’ll have to disagree there mate. I find the lack of competitiveness of our older horses these days a very big deal. The perverse incentives in our industry are driving are driving it off a cliff, with unscrupulous administrators and breeders grabbing as much as they can on the way out- there’s only so many pop up races and million dollar 2yo scampers you can actually cram in to a program. 

The point TJ made earlier was that most of the horses that broke down were having their first or second start here anyway- the rule restricting the number of runs for foreigners is a barely disguised leg up for local trainers, who admittedly need all the help they can get.

I’m not saying this to put the boot in- as someone who has loved the game over several decades I think it’s a tragedy. Of course everyone in the industry (including a craven press) will tell you this sh*t is in fact sugar, but I can’t for the life of me see how any objective person could fall for it.

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COMMENT LEE MOTTERSHEAD

The Melbourne Cup is in a mess - we cannot blame them for wanting to clean it up

It was a love affair that began in bed. Pleased to report, it has endured quite wonderfully.

Still vivid in my head is the memory of lying under the duvet in the dark, listening to the live Melbourne Cup commentary on BBC Radio. I remember being particularly excited because in my wallet was a betting slip with Jeune's name written on it. That was a big win for a young me. Twelve months earlier there had been a much bigger win for an old event.

In 1993 Dermot Weld stunned a nation by capturing the race that stops a nation. No horse based outside Australasia had ever won the country's most cherished sporting event. Vintage Crop did not simply win, he won in a different way, competing off a far lighter preparation than that espoused by Bart Cummings and his compatriots. To put a seal on a remarkable triumph, Weld even recited Banjo Paterson during the victory celebrations.

The internationalisation of the Cup had started. There are fears it finished when Racing Victoria, supported by Flemington's owners, Victoria Racing Club, announced huge changes to the treatment of those international horses who wish to compete in the Cup and during the wider Spring Carnival. 

Of 44 recommendations in a review launched following Anthony Van Dyck's death last year, 41 were accepted. In summary, fewer international horses will be allowed to take part, those who do gain entry will be permitted to run only once before the Cup and they must first undergo extremely onerous tests and scans. There are now many more hoops and they have been placed considerably higher off the ground. Even so, it is worth pointing out the reforms almost exactly mirror those recommended six months ago by none other than Weld, not just a great trainer but also a qualified vet. He has welcomed their introduction.

From within Britain and Ireland the more general reaction has been disappointment. Trainers have argued that although change was needed, these changes are too drastic. They almost certainly are excessive – yet for those whose job is to protect and preserve the Melbourne Cup, the situation has never been more serious.


New Melbourne Cup safety changes come in for criticism from European trainers


I have attended four carnivals and Cups. During this column's existence some decidedly duff tips have been offered. The best I could possibly give you is to move heaven and earth to experience Melbourne when Cup fever fills the air. 

Not everyone loves it, though. At noon on the day before the Cup, Melburnians gather along Swanston Street for the Melbourne Cup parade. They are not alone. Alongside the applauding onlookers are screaming protestors, people who fervently believe this race and sport are cruel. At every one of my visits, those individuals have been more numerous and vocal. They have been empowered by events.

For here is the nub of the problem. It is true our horses keep winning. They also keep dying.

No local horse has been killed in the Cup for 42 years. In the last eight runnings, six international horses have died as a result of injuries sustained on the track. The four who suffered catastrophic limb injuries – Verema, Red Cadeaux, Cliffs Of Moher and Anthony Van Dyck – represented European stables. Since 2018, three international horses have also lost their lives having suffered serious injuries in training at the Werribee quarantine facility. 

The report can explain how those horses died but not why. Those associated with the doomed animals would have been devastated by their demise. They did nothing wrong. We might point out similar fates have tended not to befall visitors to the Breeders' Cup, while some who have used Werribee consider it less than perfect. It has, however, been repeatedly and successfully used by some of our greatest trainers. Had they had serious concerns they would surely not have returned to a place that has been a temporary base to so many winners of the Melbourne Cup, Caulfield Cup and Cox Plate. 

To all the questions there can be only hopeful solutions, not definitive answers. The reality is Australia's anti-racing lobby needs no details, just the deceased horses' names. It is a powerful lobby, too. Horseracing is big in Victoria but the social licence is not granted in perpetuity, as evidenced by the way in which Australian jump racing has so severely shrunk. The prevailing mood forced Taylor Swift to pull out of a planned concert appearance at the 2019 Cup. It may even have impacted a significant drop in the television audience.

Many of the nation's racing participants, journalists, broadcasters and fans have, understandably, become resentful. Thanks to the relentless grim headlines, they are frustrated and frightened. It is their race and their problem but plenty of them believe we caused it.

They complain that from one year to the next international stables return home having left a terrible mess that the locals have to clean up. There is certainly a constituency that is bitter the Cup has become harder for Australian horses to win, and they will therefore be delighted to see the raiding party diminished, but I genuinely do not believe Racing Victoria or the VRC have been influenced by a desire to punish their international guests for dominating the Cup. Indeed, their mission in recent years has been to make the race and carnival ever more irresistible to the world's top stables.

There is no doubt the Melbourne Cup overhaul makes it more parochial. That is a terrible shame. Yet although we can criticise, we should also empathise. The internationalisation of the Cup has made it so much better. It has also left it having to fight for its survival.

As internationals, we lament these changes to the Cup we came to conquer. More important to the locals is that the Cup does not suffer the same fate as too many of the horses we sent to Melbourne.

reductio ad absurdum
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If there are no tragedies the Cup will not suffer one iota , the writer failed to mention the lovely 3 y/o n/h horses who have virtually not been heard of after winning or being placed , aged horses are among that lot as well , the durable type winners had done well , Dunaden , Americain , Vintage Crop may have even won another St. Leger , Rekindling, Il Paradiso , Finche , and that young horse of AOs that starts with M. a few year back  have all failed to train on or retired , this race has never been easy pickings it should be given the respect it deserves imo.
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Il Paradiso and Finche both with Waller so it is unsurprising they are non winners since.

Lloyd stuffed around with Rekindling.

Mahler despite being one of those soft boned pussies is passing on his weaknesses to the National Hunt scene.

Cross Counter, Protectionist, Dunaden, Americain and Vintage Crop all showed their weak bones were up to the task of future campaigns. 

Marmelo after his fine 2nd to Cross Counter won 2 races in his next campaign and is now passing on his weak bones to future generations. 

Protectionist sired a blacktype winner during the week. Doing a reasonable job at stud. 



reductio ad absurdum
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Tim Carroll on Saving The Melbourne Cup

With strict new measures brought in for non-local horses competing at the Melbourne Cup, Tim Carroll defends the decision of Racing Victoria. Here’s why.


Saving The Melbourne Cup

If I was to put it to you that you were solely responsible for signing off on 32 well-known local horses travelling to Australia for major races worth ridiculous amounts of money, but the trade-off was that two of those horses would not be making it home to their stable after the race, would you sign off on the trip?

If the answer is yes, don’t bother reading on any further, and please don’t feel compelled to contact me in regards to this article. However, if your answer is no, can I politely request you to read on.

During the week, Racing Victoria announced what is being branded as ‘Enhanced safety initiatives to set a new global benchmark for The Spring Racing Carnival’.

In layman terms, this means new safety measures will be introduced this year. This follows a lengthy review into the rate of fatal injuries sustained by international horses during the Spring Racing Carnival over the past decade, with a primary focus on the Melbourne Cup.

The Racing Victoria Board has endorsed 41 recommendations, which centre on enhanced veterinary oversight and screening of international horses seeking to compete in the Spring Racing Carnival. The recommendations also include a cap on the number of horses that are allowed to enter the Werribee International Horse Centre (that would be quarantine to you and I) for the Spring Carnival to 24 from an uncapped peak of 42 in 2018.

Understandably, there are a couple of issues associated with the changes that have seen several European trainers express their concerns, with some saying it will be near on impossible to take a horse down for the Cup.

Whilst I sympathise with the points they have made, it’s difficult to understand why they seem to be genuinely shocked at the measures that have now been put into place, given all that has happened over the last few years.

I’m not sure that people in this part of the world fully grasp the negative impact these fatalities are having, not just on the Cup, but also on the racing industry in Australia. The Melbourne Cup has traditionally been known as The Race That Stops a Nation, but with all the recent deaths it is now the race that splits a nation, and the turnaround has been rapid.

Only two years ago, arguably the world’s most famous pop star, Taylor Swift, cancelled a scheduled performance on Cup Day after an extensive worldwide social media campaign protesting at the singer’s involvement in the race. It’s a far cry from when British model Jean Shrimpton, who in 1965 was in heralded in the arrival of the swinging sixties to Australia, by wearing what was believed to be the first mini skirt seen Down Under to the Cup. Once what was the place to be seen for the trendiest lady in the world is now the place to avoid at all costs.

Groups such as “The Coalition for the protection of racehorses’ and ‘Nup to the Cup’ are growing their numbers at a rapid rate, and these aren’t just some tree-hugging far, left crazies who haven’t anything better to do. Well known celebrities and sports stars are signing up, prominent cafe and restaurant owners are not only refusing to show the race, but they are prepared to take a financial hit by also refusing to book Melbourne Cup parties and luncheons.  

Last year in Sydney, the Newtown Hotel made headlines for putting an end to Melbourne Cup celebrations under its roof, instead opting to hold a "F--- the Cup" event, raising money for Horse Rescue Australia. They will be holding the same event this year.

Sure, there have been horse-racing protestors around for years in Australia, but not like this, not in the numbers we are now seeing, not backed by high profile people, and this has all been expedited by these recent tragic deaths.

So why are these international horse deaths occurring? There are credible theories and some intelligent people working tirelessly to get to the bottom of it, but despite all of this, if we are being honest, there is no definitive answer. But to put it all into context let's have a look at some numbers.

The numbers

Figures released for horse fatalities on the flat:

North America Flat - 1.41 per 1000 starters

British Flat - 0.60 per 1000 starters

Victoria Flat - 0.44 per 1000 starters  

Racing Victoria, at less than half a fatality (0.44) on the flat per 1000 starters, has one of the lowest fatality rates in the world, lower than North America and England (Ireland figures are not so easy to source). The last local horse to lose their life in the Melbourne Cup was Dulcify over 40 years ago in 1979. Given the race was first run in 1861, with fields up to 39 and jockeys as young as 12, the fatality rate has been very low amongst the locals (which includes our neighbours in New Zealand).

Since 2013, there have been 80 Northern Hemisphere-trained horses contest the Melbourne Cup and of those 80 horses, six have lost their lives. To be fair, one was in an after-race incident that whilst tragic, cannot be directly attributed to the race itself so we will use the figure of 5.

This does not include horses who had to be put down after going-wrong at the quarantine centre, but does include Admire Rakti from Japan who collapsed and died of heart failure, not long after the race.

If we bump the Victorian fatality rate and set it at 1:2000 (it is actually less, 0.88), it would mean that for every 2000 local runners sent around in the Melbourne Cup, you would expect only 1 not to make it home. However, if you take the last eight runnings of the Cup for Northern Hemisphere-trained runners and applied the recent fatality rate of 5:80, of 2000 runners sent out, you would expect 125 (let me repeat that, 125!), horses not to make it home. I know that no one reading this article would find that even remotely acceptable.

We could debate why it’s happening, and there could be an element of coincidence, although the above figures would suggest it’s anything but coincidence. I won't go down that route except to touch on ground conditions, as this seems to be one of the more popular theories on social media.

The ground

With Victoria having one of the lower fatality rates in the world, it would seem rather nonsensical to suggest that is where the problem lies. But I’ll entertain the theory nonetheless.   

In Australia, tracks are rated on a scale of 1 to 10.

Firm 1: Dry hard track

Firm 2: Firm track with reasonable grass coverage

Good 3: Track with good grass coverage and cushion

Good 4: Track with some give in it

Soft 5: Track with a reasonable amount of give in it

Soft 6: Moist but not a badly affected track

Soft 7: More rain-affected track that will chop out

Heavy 8: Rain affected track that horses will get into

Heavy 9: Wet track getting into a squelchy area

Heavy 10: Heaviest category track, very wet, towards saturation  

The Victoria Turf Club aim for a Good 3 to 4 when weather permits. This is clearly stated by the Club on their website and all visiting connections from interstate, New Zealand or from the Northern Hemisphere are aware. Given that this is considered ideal racing ground in Australia and horses are built to local conditions, does anybody really believe that a Club should tailor conditions to visiting horses at the expense of local horses in a jurisdiction that has a lower fatality rate? The entire idea is preposterous.

The onus is on connections to bring the right type of horse. Case at hand is Charlie Fellows and Prince Of Arran. Charlie could have taken Prince Of Arran to Sydney for the Cup, a race he would have romped home based on his Melbourne Cup performances, but as Charlie has rightfully pointed out, his old warrior prefers decent ground and he’s more likely to get that in Melbourne.

Would it be fair to Charlie and the connections to soften the ground on a logic that simply does not stack up? The fatality rates Australia-wide, which are some of the lowest in the world, tell the story, the ground is perfectly safe for sound horses.

It should also be pointed out that none of these Melbourne Cups have been run on firm ground. Of the last eight renewals, two have been run on rain-affected ground (Soft 5 and Soft 6) and the other six have all been run on a Good 3. (For context - Addeybb, who by all reports prefers a softer surface, recently won the Queen Elizabeth on a Good 4).

One of the fatalities was on soft ground, and whilst that wouldn’t totally dispel the theory that the ground is the issue, it does put a rather large dent in the logic. Not to mention that the recommendation was never to drench Flemington to the point of soft ground, it was simply to aim at a Good 4 instead of a Good 3.

The jealousy theory

There has been a suggestion that the numbers have been capped to protect the race from the international raiders. Sorry, can you say that again? This simply makes zero sense.  

The Victorian Racing Club, over the years, has invested tens of millions of dollars into building up the international profile of the race, and reaped the rewards from the commercial success that has come from that vision. So, it does beg the question, as to why they would then go and shoot themselves in the foot by capping the number of international horses purely to discourage them from running?

You need to understand the Australian landscape at this point in time. New South Wales have recently made massive investments in creating events like The Championships and The Everest. As someone who has been invited down to cover these meetings for Sky Sports Racing and ATR, I've seen first-hand the huge undertaking by the Australian Turf Club in attracting international horses such as Addeybb and July Cup winners, US Navy Flag and Ten Sovereigns.

Luring big international names to their feature meetings formed part of The Australian Turf Club’s pitch when they went to the NSW Government asking for support.

There’s no other way to describe this, but NSW and Victoria don’t like each other and have staged a good old fashion ‘who can pee the farthest’ competition in recent times. Victoria will know that by introducing more stringent procedures for international runners and by capping the numbers, they have given NSW an advantage they didn’t have before.

You don’t need to be a genius to work out that the powers that be, in NSW, will now be sitting down to formulate an initiative based along the lines of ‘if you can't get into Melbourne don’t worry, we’ll welcome you with open arms to Sydney’.

There was no suggestion of foul play when the Kiwis (the most successful nation outside of Australia) were winning the race. Sorry to say to all the conspiracy theorists, but the sensible money is on the logical reason for the cap, that being the recent totally unacceptable 1:16 death rate of Northern Hemisphere-trained runners.

Not to mention the amount of pressure from sponsors, the public and politicians forcing the Club's hand, far more so than a few trainers whinging that they can't get their horse into the race.

One of the key members on the Steering Committee for the changes introduced was Vin Cox, who is considered one of the most respected horsemen in Australia. Vin is also the Manager Director of Godolphin Down Under. I’m sure most people would be aware of Godolphin’s support of the Spring Carnival and the Melbourne Cup itself over many years.

Does anyone really believe that Godolphin’s main man in Australia has just signed off on safety initiatives that will make it harder for his employer to travel horses to Melbourne because they are sulking about the internationals? It beggars belief that anyone would be buying into this line of thought.

Whilst the Melbourne Cup may be steeped in tradition, it is a rarity in Australia in that it’s an open staying race and one of only three run over 2 miles at Pattern level. The other two being the Group 1 Sydney Cup and the Group 2 Adelaide Cup.

Of the 77 Group 1 races in Australia, 51 are run at 1 mile and below. The point being, that whilst I’m sure the locals would like to have more runners and win the Cup, it's not a race that plays to the locals' strengths. They know that, and there are plenty of other lucrative options that are more suitable.

The highest rated races in Australia are constantly sprint races; The Everest, The Newmarket, The Lightning, and The T J Smith etc. Two of these races were won by horses running higher figures than any Group 1 winner (RPR) in Ireland last year. Thus, the jealousy theory, I respectively suggest, is a load of baloney, although that may change if July Cup winners start dominating the Everest!

The future

Will we see fewer international runners? With the more stringent screening process and the numbers now capped, yes, is the simple answer. As a proponent of international racing, I think that’s a shame. However, although I’m not sure if the measures that have been taken are the right ones (I doubt if anyone does at this point), if the consequences of protecting the industry and saving the race, an event that has become a racing liability on the world stage (and that’s something I didn’t think I’d ever be saying) is less horses travelling from overseas, then so be it.

The Cup and the industry are bigger than the individual, and make no mistake, the race and the industry are under siege in Australia. The anti-racing folk Down Under are far more active, loud and influential than here, in Britain and Ireland. But critically, they are gathering far more prominent support and a larger platform.

There will still be international runners, the pot is simply too big to ignore for the type of horse who can contest the race, and the Cup is a better spectacle for the international participation. But regardless of how its future shapes, the race was hugely successful before the internationals arrived (one in every two people in Australia watch the race live) and that won’t change if the visitors don’t come.  

The voice of a genius

You’ll make up your own mind, and I wouldn’t blame you if you didn’t want to listen to some media hack from Australia (who unashamedly states he understands far more about the lie of the land Down Under than most here who are commenting), who you may think is simply waving the flag and will protect it at all costs. So ladies and gentleman, I give you Mr Dermot Weld.

Dermot Weld is revered in Australia, and I can’t think of a single Australian (beside a few of the local connections), who wouldn’t be delighted to see the Irishman add to his two winners in the Cup. I missed out on Vintage Crop, but as the ‘go to man’ at my then work place, I told anyone who would listen to back Media Puzzle (by God that was a good day), We all cleaned up and I don’t think I paid for another drink until the following year.

But let’s not digress. I think most would agree that as the first Northern Hemisphere trainer to win the race, Weld is more than qualified than most to comment on the recent changes.

After last year's Melbourne Cup, Weld was quoted as saying (Herald Sun): ”More must be done in Europe before Cup horses leave their home countries including a full body scan and a CT scan of their fetlock joint”.

The Herald Sun contacted Weld again in the wake of the recommendations this week, including a cap on the number of internationals allowed at Werribee, and the medical scrutiny applied at both ends.

The Herald Sun provided the following quote from Weld: “I gave you a few comments last year, and from what you are telling me now, I am very glad they have implemented the suggestions that I made. It is interesting that they have more or less followed through on the suggestions that I made and I am very happy they have done so. I just made my suggestions to be helpful and I hope it all works out well for everybody.”

A very intelligent man is Mr Weld.

At the end of the day, for those who still think this is all one big conspiracy, you can always create a 2-mile, £4 million handicap to be run locally in November on soft ground. Problem solved.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2021 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Il Paradiso and Finche both with Waller so it is unsurprising they are non winners since.

Lloyd stuffed around with Rekindling.

Mahler despite being one of those soft boned pussies is passing on his weaknesses to the National Hunt scene.

Cross Counter, Protectionist, Dunaden, Americain and Vintage Crop all showed their weak bones were up to the task of future campaigns. 

Marmelo after his fine 2nd to Cross Counter won 2 races in his next campaign and is now passing on his weak bones to future generations. 

Protectionist sired a blacktype winner during the week. Doing a reasonable job at stud. 



There was no mention of Dunaden , Americain or Vintage Crop having " weak bones " in my post , I called them " dureable " and there were .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

In what way do we need to be better Jamal ?

Where are we deficient ? 

As you know we have become obssessed with speed.





All thoroughbreds need speed.

The best stayers on the planet have superior speed.

So my question remains - Where are we deficient ? 


Putting it all into perspective there Djebel, a work in itself collating it all, well done!

change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2021 at 4:24pm

Physiologist Believes Sensors Could Protect Race Horses

Dr. David Lambert says race sensors can be used as a tool in preventing breakdowns.

Arespected equine physiologist who for decades has examined performance data in an effort to improve results for Thoroughbred owners and breeders believes race sensors that track horse movement better than the human eye could provide another tool in the industry's efforts to prevent catastrophic breakdowns.

In an April 8 seminar for the University of Kentucky's Equine Gluck Equine Research Center, Dr. David Lambert, founder of Equine Analysis Systems in Midway, Ky., said the same scientific approaches used to examine equine physiology that have helped breeders produce grade 1 winners and buyers find top-level horses can be applied to prevent catastrophic breakdowns. 

Under this approach, the scientific information would be collected by small sensors, about the size of a cell phone and weighing about three ounces, placed in a horse's saddle cloth. Such sensors are already in use and while they initially were used to gauge performance, Lambert sees potential for this data to be used to protect horses at risk to life-threatening injury.

In a compelling presentation outlining the data compiled through a review of thousands of races where such sensors were used in races conducted on the Australian island state of Tasmania over the past decade, Lambert showed how the sensors can pick up jarring motion in a horse—jerk and vibration—that he believes indicate a small injury may have occurred.

In looking at horses who suffered catastrophic breakdowns, Lambert believes that smaller injuries first show themselves to the sensors in the form of this added vibration. He suspects the sensors are picking up the smaller injuries—perhaps the micro fractures that have been linked to catastrophic breakdowns. He sees potential in using the sensors to allow the horse to tell humans when they're hurting. 

In Thursday's presentation, Lambert displayed the data from one such horse. The horse consistently traveled with about the same amount of jerk and vibration in his starts until one race where his vibration level was well outside the norm—two standard deviations above the norm. In the start following the effort where the sensors picked up the increased vibration, the horse suffered a catastrophic breakdown.

Lambert believes the sensors from that second-last start flagged a horse who was trying to compensate for injuries that at that point were still relatively minor. This compensation resulted in a less smooth run that the sensors picked up.

"The race immediately before the last, there was a considerable increase in force and there was a considerable increase in instability throughout this race," Lambert noted. In a follow-up conversation, Lambert compared the racing sensors to sensors in today's cars, which measure for small fluctuations in vibration that could indicate something as simple as a tire that needs air. While the driver doesn't notice the increased vibration, the sensor picks up on the change.

Lambert believes that going forward in racing, sensors could be added to detect this added vibration. Horses that show such added vibration could be flagged and taken out of training until the problem is identified—thus preventing catastrophic breakdowns that otherwise may have followed.

"When horses go two, three, or four standard deviations outside their usual pattern, we have to take note of that," Lambert said of the vibration that is documented in race reports produced by the sensors that can be uploaded to a cloud moments after a race. "That horse is giving us a sign. He's screaming out, 'Something hurts. Something is very wrong here and I need help.'"

Tables of the horse Lambert highlighted in Tasmania showed consistent smooth performance from start to start until the problematic increased vibration in the penultimate start. Lambert said the data can differentiate between meaningless changes and a potential danger. For instance, he noted that older horses may see some small increase in vibration throughout their careers but it doesn't reach the level that's seen in horses who have physical issues that could lead to a fatal breakdown. The sensors and data see the differences in those two situations.

Lambert does have a financial interest in the potential for this system as a partner in Stride Safe, which has grown out of sensor developer StrideMaster. Those sensors initially supplied handicapping information to bettors, but Lambert sees added potential in protecting race horses.

While Lambert views the compromised running style as the horse's way of telling humans that it's hurting, he noted that until the development of these sensors, there was no way for humans to receive that message. He said the sensors pick up subtle changes in action that are missed by human evaluation.

In collecting such data, regulatory veterinarians could be alerted when a horse suddenly shows this dramatic increase in vibration. The horse could be taken out of training until the nature of the problem is understood and the horse recuperates. Lambert is optimistic of its potential use in this area because the problematic races come in races before the fatal incidents. Detailed information can readily be made available, and a system can be developed to flag horses of concern.

"The thing is the sensors can pick it up but people can't," Lambert said. "These events are too quick. They're too small for human beings riding and watching them to pick up. Even in bringing them back home and trotting them up and down the blacktop, the horse is going to look sound. It doesn't hurt him to do that. The only way to find the (minor injury that could lead to breakdown) is to get data when it hurts, which is when he's going 40 miles an hour in a race."

Using sensors and this approach on 400 horses at Emerald Downs last year, Lambert said issues were found with some horses who were taken out of training. He believes those actions likely prevented catastrophic breakdowns. That study will continue this year at the Auburn, Wash., track where Lambert said it was well-received by Emerald Downs executive director Phil Ziegler and Washington Horsemen's Benevolent and Protective Association executive director MaryAnn O'Connell.

Catastrophic injury in racing is rare and the industry has committed massive financial resources and effort to further protect horses. Through a multi-faceted approach, this commitment helped lead to a second straight record year for equine safety in 2020 in North America as such incidents were avoided 99.86% of the time and such incidents have been reduced 29.5% since 2009.

Lambert believes use of race performance data could provide an additional tool to further reduce these breakdowns. He noted that just as physiology has helped pick out rare, elite-level horses, it can be an added tool to find these few at-risk horses.

"I believe this is where the racing physiology, racing science, needs to go because it's a whole area we've had nothing to do with, and it's the essence of everything," Lambert said. "How the horse moves, all the things he's doing when he's moving, what his bones are doing—that's what it's all about right? It's about the horse and what this horse is saying to us. 

"If we could just get (these sensors) on horses all over the place and have that database all held together somewhere for academics and everybody to investigate; it's mind-blowing what would come out of that. It would be a completely new world for racing and veterinary medicine."


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https://www.racing.com/news/2021-05-12/news-industry-financial-conundrum-over-carnival-flight

Financial conundrum over Carnival flight

Carl Di Iorio

Anxious connections anticipating complications due to Racing Victoria's new safety measures for the Spring Racing Carnival are exploring alternative options to travel their overseas-based horses to Australia later this year.

RV's advanced veterinary screening measures for overseas-based horses, combined with the COVID-19 pandemic limiting the availability of freight aircraft, has created an uncertain financial conundrum.

International Racehorse Transport requires approximately three months' notice to book aircraft, meaning as early as June or July ahead of the upcoming Melbourne Spring Carnival.

That deadline to secure suitable aircraft doesn't complement the process outlined by RV and the Victoria Racing Club in their extensive report released last month.

The connections of foreign horses will be forced to cover the costs of mandatory full-body scintigraphy and CT/MRI that must be performed two-to-six weeks prior to entering pre-export quarantine.

This is anticipated to occur from August.

Australia is one of the major racing jurisdictions that typically asks owners of travelling horses to pay a significant portion of their travel costs.

It's an expense incurred with the promise of return on investment with positive racetrack performance in lucrative races.

Racing.com understands the Hong Kong Jockey Club and Dubai Racing Club, jurisdictions with a long tradition of overseas competition, underwrite the cost of flights with no expense to owners should a horse be deemed unsuitable or decide not to travel.

Consequently, the requirement for booking aircraft weeks before connections of prospective travelling horses commit to making the trip, or are even screened by vets, poses questions about how the flight will be funded.

An RV spokesperson acknowledged there were 'many queries as a result of the new safety measures announced for the Spring Racing Carnival'.

"With respect to international travel and the associated logistics, we are in continued discussions with IRT," the RV spokesperson said.

Owners familiar with the difficulties of travelling horses to Australia quickly acknowledged the incredibly challenging new framework for importing horses through Werribee's International Horse Centre during the Melbourne Spring Carnival.

James Ross, the Australian Turf Club's Executive General Manager of Racing Services, confirmed that Australian owners of Northern Hemisphere-based horses have inquired as to the availability of Sydney's Canterbury Racecourse as a quarantine facility this spring.

Ross said that interest had primarily come from local owners seeking to travel their horses in the spring with the intention of resettling permanently in Australia.

These horses, commonly referred to as 'one-way ticket' arrivals, are now required to stay at Werribee for the duration of the Melbourne Spring Carnival, rather than just complete a fortnight of mandatory post-travel quarantine before relocating to their new Australian stable.

An extended stint at Werribee, under maximum scrutiny and anticipated increased cost, is certainly not a desirable outcome, particularly for a lesser-performed horse with longer-term ambitions and not immediately aimed at the Cups or Cox Plate.

The number of international horses permitted to enter Werribee's International Horse Centre for the Melbourne Spring Carnival has also been capped at 24, down from 42 in 2018 and 29 last year.

"We've had good interest since that (Melbourne Spring Carnival) review, people are looking at their options to come to Melbourne and Sydney," Ross said.

"The interest is heightened a little bit because of certainly some of the people hoping to bring some one-way (ticket) horses."

Ross, who has previously served in roles with the VRC, HKJC and Racing Australia, has played a pivotal role in facilitating the growth of International participation during Sydney's carnivals in autumn and spring since joining the ATC in 2016.

He confirmed the complexities of securing aircraft in the current climate.

Newmarket-based trainer William Haggas was in discussions with ATC and Racing NSW officials from as early as November before Addeybb and stablemate Favorite Moon travelled for the 2021 Sydney Autumn Carnival.

Ross, while noting the ATC and RNSW had strengthened their veterinary criteria over the past few years, said Canterbury has a quarantine capacity of 16 horses in one barn and therefore arrivals would need to arrive on a single planeload.

"Obviously we're watching what's happening in Victoria," Ross said.

"We've been strengthening our Spring Carnival for a number of years now and I think we have availability for horses to come into Sydney."

RNSW announced prizemoney increases and bonus incentives for the 2021 Sydney Spring Carnival last month, which may sway connections in determining their destination of choice.

Prizemoney for the G1 Epsom Handicap (1600m), G2 Villiers Stakes (1600m), G3 Craven Plate (2000m) and recently created Rosehill Gold Cup (2000m) has tripled from last year.

The Epsom is worth $1.5 million, equal with the Cantala Stakes during the Melbourne Cup Carnival, while the Villiers Stakes, Craven Plate and Rosehill Gold Cup are each worth $750,000.

It is anticipated the substantial increases to the Epsom and Villiers may lure Northern Hemisphere three-year-olds, particularly those who are Australasian-owned, to compete over the Randwick mile either side of contesting the $7.5m Golden Eagle (1500m) at Rosehill on October 30.

Additionally, a new $1m bonus is being offered for any horse that wins both the Craven Plate and Rosehill Gold Cup, which is sure to appeal to owners of progressive middle-distance horses.

"We did have a number of overseas horses here for the first running of The Golden Eagle (in 2019) and I've already had strong interest about this year's race," Ross said.

"We'd be pleased if numbers, particularly the one-way horses, which are going to be trained by local trainers and owned by local connections, increase for this spring.

"In the past horses like Mugatoo and I Am Superman have arrived at Canterbury on an International shipment and those horses have added good value to being here in Australia."

reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2023 at 12:35pm

J-Mac escapes injury after raider breaks down

Champion jockey James McDonald took matters into his own hands, parting company with the stricken Temple Of Artemis after the horse broke down at Warwick Farm on Wednesday.

The heavily-backed Joseph O'Brien-trained galloper appeared destined for an easy win when things went awry in the home straight during the Ranvet Benchmark 78 Handicap (2200m).

"He felt terrific in the run, he sailed through the first half of the race, and from about the 800, we started to quicken up and he was travelling beautifully," McDonald told stewards.

"He was building brilliantly and he felt fine.

"He whinnied (at the top of the straight) and I thought he was having a heart attack.

"He was wobbling and then he whinnied out again and I knew there was something wrong.

"I thought he was going to fall so I bailed out."

Acting chief steward Tom Moxon reported Temple Of Artemis was taken to Warwick Farm Equine "for further assessment" but was subsequently euthanased due to a fracture to his near fore sesamoid.

Temple Of Artemis's is the latest international carnival raider to go amiss early in their Australian careers.

Life-taking injuries to Cliffs Of Moher in the 2018 Melbourne Cup and Anthony Van Dyck in the 2019 Melbourne Cup, both trained by O'Brien's father Aiden O'Brien, as well as Red Cadeaux in the 2015 Melbourne Cup resulted in Victorian officials tightening their incoming veterinary checks of horses.

The more stringent regulations include CT scans to a horse's distal limbs prior to travelling to Australia and further scans upon arrival before participating in spring carnival races.

International horses coming into Sydney during the autumn and spring don't undergo the same invasive protocols.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2023 at 4:15pm
The O'BRIEN'S have an atrocious record. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2023 at 5:01pm
Apparently another of his broke down badly at Canterbury so has/is returning unraced - per RSN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 1:09pm
shows the internationals are frequently found to be unsound when they come here, perhaps should be more thoroughly checked before departure, oh but hang on, that led to a lot of squealing from  the overseas brigade, so it sorta got forgotten about?
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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