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Points: 857 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Breeder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 9:45am
 Just came across this thread and was particularly interested in diomed's post. What you are outlining, diomed is exactly the same as what Clive Harper had in one of his books a number of years ago, when he gave his ideas on why Eight Carat was so good as a broodmare and more importantly what genetic link ups gave her the most success --linking with the No9 family (Mumtaz Mahal etc.). So great minds think a like diomed.

 As for a Verry Elleegant mating my completely off the charts, out of left field suggestion, which will never happen, would be for her to "go home" to Grangewilliam Stud where she was initially raised and try a meet up with Derryn.

 I believe the dam sire of stallions are usually totally ignored, but I think they can be just as important as the sire line, if not more important in some cases. So in Derryn you have Lonhro which brings in a number of No 9 family influences :   
                          Eight Carat herself
                          A sire line leading to Royal Charger
                           His dam Shadea has 2 lines of Nasrullah and 1 line of Royal Charger
                          2 lines of Forli in Lonhro brings in a female No 9 line via Commotion ...Lady Juror

Derryn is line bred to Easy Date and she brings in 2 lines of Nasrullah and 2 different lines of Mahmoud

                                    
                            
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Points: 55608 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2023 at 1:02pm
Great post Breeder, very insightful for us 'learners' Wink  Thanks.
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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I'm the learner Gay. That's why I come on here, particularly to learn about conformation issues.
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Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

 
People will laugh at the suggested sires.
They are all elderly, and in five years will not be available.
Remember Verry Elleegant was bred by a sire who now stands at $6,000.

My guess is Verry Elleegant will bred to expensive stallions, and she will breed moderate horse to them, horses similar in ability to her moderate sire Zed and her moderate dam Opulence.


I agree with you that very high performing mares are usually better off when paired with horses who match their abilities and aptitudes...but that doesn't mean choosing older stallions with moderate to poor production overall.

There are plenty of horses who have Hail to Reason sirelines available who have better performance and more importantly better stud records than any of the ones you suggested (save for Street Boss).  Maurice descends from the Roberto branch of Hail to Reason, with Halo on his sire's side.  Sons of Deep Impact bring in Halo and Sir Ivor.  Vancouver and Astern have Sir Ivor via their sire's side, and Vancouver has Roberto on his dam line. That's just in AUS/NZ...there are others elsewhere, particularly Japan.

While I'm a bit lukewarm towards sending her to Sea the Stars, there is no question that he is producing very, very well.  It's also arguable that the ownership group didn't go for the "safe" commercial choices in either Frankel or Dubawi.
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Hello,
I read with interest the various suggestions about the mating plans for the great racing filly.

So I remembered the ped of the "Europeanbred Sire" Highest Honor (Kenmare - High River 
by Riverman) with a load of family members 9-c.

First, he is 4x4x4x4x5 Nasrullah and his FS Rivaz (descenting from Mumtaz Mahal), his Sire Kenmare has an uncommon Descent via Belle of Ireland - Milesian -  My Babu - Badruddin (3/4 relative of Mumtaz Begum, dam of Nasrullah), his Sire Kalamoun (3x3 Nasrullah/Rivaz FB/FS) carries via  Palariva Palestine - Fair Trial (HS Lady Juror).
The dam Highest Honour carries another relative, via Hairbrush - Sir Gaylord - Turn-to - Royal Charger 
(3/4 relative Nasrullah)

Another Sire tracing in the maleline to Kalamoun is Jeune via Kalaglow, who stood in AUS.
on the other hand I don't know, if a Sire is standing/stood in your country carring abovementioned Sire.

Hope I could give some clues.
regards, Ticino
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That's interesting Ticino. There are still quite a few broodmares around that go tail female to Eight Carat so if breeders can find something that fits in with your thoughts it would worth a try. I'm not sure if Glass Harmonium is still standing in Australia.
There was a stallion in NZ called Manntari in the early 2000s which a lot of us breeding buffs had high hopes for. He had Kalamoun as a b/mare sire plus Malindi and few others you mention. While he was a lovely looking horse he did not live up to expectations, even though he received some good mares.
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He was my 1st thought Breeder but apart being totally non commercial (I was a great fan) I read recently he's either retired or moved on due to fertility problems Cry
Stallions with Adyoun might be worth checking for as well as Kenmare Confused
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Could anyone entertain Satono Aladdin for Elle ?
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Originally posted by Breeder Breeder wrote:

That's interesting Ticino. There are still quite a few broodmares around that go tail female to Eight Carat so if breeders can find something that fits in with your thoughts it would worth a try. I'm not sure if Glass Harmonium is still standing in Australia.
There was a stallion in NZ called Manntari in the early 2000s which a lot of us breeding buffs had high hopes for. He had Kalamoun as a b/mare sire plus Malindi and few others you mention. While he was a lovely looking horse he did not live up to expectations, even though he received some good mares.

The best horse I can think of with a close line of Kalamoun on his page is Heart's Cry.  His dam was by Tony Bin, by Kampala, by Kalamoun.

He doesn't have many sons at stud, but he has two standing at Shadai that on paper would suit a mare like VE: Salios and Suave Richard.

Ticino, you may be interested in Salios seeing as he has a deep German female lline.
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Originally posted by goldey goldey wrote:

Could anyone entertain Satono Aladdin for Elle ?


I would, although perhaps give him 1-2 more crops to show what type of races his foals excel at.  Verry Elleegant wants to run all day, other Zed foals are top stayers, so the trick is to find a horse who will speed her up without risking getting a horse with the speed of the stayer parent and the stamina of the sprinter parent.

If he had lived, the horse that would have stood in NZ I would have sent her to without question is Roaring Lion.
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 One part of VE's pedigree that gets over shadowed by the Cotehele House influence is Danroad. He has very good numbers as a B/mare sire. In his pedigree we find Bowl of Flowers who as well as being a very good race mare, is a half sister to His Majesty (found in Danehill). So I wonder if she is having a positive effect. 
 Annabel Nesham bought a filly by Zed out of Hermione last year. This cross makes the filly a 3/4 sister to Verry Elleegant. The filly has been named Phazed. One to watch next season, perhaps.
  The brother to that filly passed for $60k this week.
  Grangewilliam Stud have tried with another mare --Moonofklairessa (5 time winner by Towkay) and sold a colt this week (again a 3/4 brother to VE) Chris Waller for $60k.

 I'm not sure on the colts --I think the cross maybe better suited to fillies. I would love to be proved wrong.
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Not sure of the  SA  offspring ,  but he looks like he  could add bone and I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing for Elle . 
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Originally posted by Breeder Breeder wrote:

 One part of VE's pedigree that gets over shadowed by the Cotehele House influence is Danroad. He has very good numbers as a B/mare sire. In his pedigree we find Bowl of Flowers who as well as being a very good race mare, is a half sister to His Majesty (found in Danehill). So I wonder if she is having a positive effect. 

Breeder, I noticed that a bit earlier.  Gytrash's dam is a 3/4 sibling in blood (dams are full sisters) to Danroad.  It's one of the reasons that I liked Lope de Vega for VE more than Sea the Stars.  

Danroad's second dam Pay the Piper has several lines that are worth reinforcing as well -- notably Lalun, Myrtlewood, Uvira, and Boudoir, the 2nd dam of Flower Bowl.

Lope de Vega has another cross to the Natalma family via Coup de Folie, more Sir Ivor and Nijinsky via Vettori, Uvira via Missy Baba, and a line of Kenmare.
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Hello,
many thanks for the kind respons eto my post regarding "Highest Honor".

Btw, there is another Sire, with some connection to Kalamoun, bred in your part of the world. His name is/was Keltrice (Kenmare - Vain Display by Vain) from a "rare" Australian damline.

regards, Ticino
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First scan indicates in foal to Sea The Stars.

Connections saying resultant foal will stay in Europe to be trained and she will will be put in foal to Southern time next year.
reductio ad absurdum
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The Australasian racing industry is in mourning following the news of the passing of 11-time Group One winner Verry Elleegant and her foal, while foaling down in Ireland she had been covered by Sea the Stars.

By Grangewilliam Stud stallion Zed, Verry Elleegant was bred by Don Goodwin out of his Danroad mare Opulence, who he purchased as a broodmare prospect for $14,000 off South Auckland horseman Nicholas Bishara at Karaka. It came full circle for Bishara, and he was pleased to take on her progeny, including Verry Elleegant, to educate and subsequently train.

“She only had three starts for me for a two-year-old second and then two wins before going offshore.”

Bishara’s role then changed to that of a part-owner, and he said she took him on a whirlwind ride and gave him some of his best moments in racing.

“The bittersweet one was winning the Melbourne Cup because due to COVID we couldn’t be there. That is everyone’s dream to win a Melbourne Cup, and she just put them to bed in that race,” he said.

“Beating the English Derby winner (Anthony Van Dyck) in the Caulfield Cup (Group 1, 2400m) was another massive highlight, as well as winning the AJC Oaks (Group 1, 2400m). We were on hand for that and we were able to lead her back into the birdcage. Those memories are pretty special.”

Bishara and breeder Don Goodwin have a couple of her siblings to look forward to racing in the coming years, but for now they are just n disbelief.

“We are fortunate enough to have her half-sister at home and we have got a three-quarter sister to her at Chris Waller’s, who is two,” Bishara said. “We have got a little bit of the legacy to go on and we would love them to put their hand up and do her proud, but it is really upsetting.”

In all, Verry Elleegant won 16 and placed in 12 of her 40 career starts, including 11 victories at Group One level ranging in distances from 1400m to 3200m, and has truly earned her spot as one of the legends of the Australian turf.

– LOVERACING.NZ News Desk
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Originally posted by Ticino Ticino wrote:

Hello,
I read with interest the various suggestions about the mating plans for the great racing filly.

So I remembered the ped of the "Europeanbred Sire" Highest Honor (Kenmare - High River 
by Riverman) with a load of family members 9-c.

First, he is 4x4x4x4x5 Nasrullah and his FS Rivaz (descenting from Mumtaz Mahal), his Sire Kenmare has an uncommon Descent via Belle of Ireland - Milesian -  My Babu - Badruddin (3/4 relative of Mumtaz Begum, dam of Nasrullah), his Sire Kalamoun (3x3 Nasrullah/Rivaz FB/FS) carries via  Palariva Palestine - Fair Trial (HS Lady Juror).
The dam Highest Honour carries another relative, via Hairbrush - Sir Gaylord - Turn-to - Royal Charger 
(3/4 relative Nasrullah)

Another Sire tracing in the maleline to Kalamoun is Jeune via Kalaglow, who stood in AUS.
on the other hand I don't know, if a Sire is standing/stood in your country carring abovementioned Sire.

Hope I could give some clues.
regards, Ticino

we do have a Highest Honor sire here in Oz being Verglas
also checkout the pedigree of this filly Ticino
x Al Maher from Delisha


Edited by Take2 - 20 Mar 2024 at 10:19pm
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au
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