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Interesting pedigrees

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2025 at 9:44pm
Will follow with interest Diomed.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2025 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

Looking at djebel's Ancestor duplications: I can see that they are all in the 4th and 5th generations, and 21 in total. 
Is 21 a record? Shocked

From memory, 2 G1 winning cheapies, Veandercross & Northerly may go close but off to bed for now Big smile
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2025 at 8:44am
Hello, 
maybe you find following pedigree interesting.

I spot it first in a Sales catalogue of the BBAG (German Thoughbred Sales Company)
The name of the yearling was Sumitas (Lomitas - Subia by Königsstuhl)
His breeding is quite unusual for nowadays.

3x4 Surama
4x5 Love In
5x5 Kaiserkrone
all 3 are good broodmares with succesful offspring at the racetrack and Stud

3x5 Nijinsky
4x5 Literat
5x5 Neckar
all of them succesful at Stud

He raced from 2 - 6 years, with 37 starts, 7 wins, 5 second, 4 third

Sumitas was bred by the Fährhof Stud in 1996.
He was owned by Mr. Georg Baron von Ullmann and later by Mr. Gary Tanaka.
He went to stud in France, but didn't was a success.

regards, Ticino

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2025 at 10:42am
Here is that pedigree Ticino.  Mad inbreeding but at least not 2 x 3 like some try.  Way too close then.  He was a decent horse with two G2's and and G3 to his name.  And plenty of G1 places.

SUMITAS (GER)Bay or brown colt 1996 
Lomitas
Chestnut 1988
Niniski
Bay 1976
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Flaming Page
Bay 1959
Bull Page
Flaring Top
1947
1947
4-m
8-f
Virginia Hills
Bay 1971
Tom Rolfe
Bay 1962
Ribot
Pocahontas
1952
1955
4-l
9-h
Ridin' Easy
Chestnut 1967
Ridan
Easy Eight
1959
1954
5-h
16-b
La Colorada
Chestnut 1981
Surumu
Chestnut 1974
Literat
Bay 1965
Birkhahn
Lis
1945
1960
1-j
7-b
Surama
Black 1970
Reliance
Suncourt
1962
1952
16-g
19>
La Dorada
Bay 1974
Kronzeuge
Bay or brown 1961
Neckar
Kaiserkrone
1948
1952
4-r
5-h
Love In
Chestnut 1966
Crepello
Tudor Love
1954
1957
16-d
9-e
Subia
Black 1991
Konigsstuhl
Brown 1976
Dschingis Khan
Brown 1961
Tamerlane
Bay 1952
Persian Gulf
Eastern Empress
1940
1944
2-i
1-e
Donna Diana
Brown 1956
Neckar
Donatella
1948
1950
4-r
6-e
Konigskronung
Brown 1965
Tiepoletto
Brown 1956
Tornado
Scarlet Skies
1939
1938
1-s
2-c
Kronung
Brown 1957
Olymp
Kaiserkrone
1942
1952
8-a
5-h
Surata
Brown 1986
Lagunas
Bay or brown 1981
Ile de Bourbon
Bay 1975
Nijinsky
Roseliere
1967
1965
8-f
4-i
Liranga
Chestnut 1973
Literat
Love In
1965
1966
7-b
9-e
Surama
Black 1970
Reliance
Bay 1962
Tantieme
Relance
1947
1952
20-a
16-g
Suncourt
Brown 1952
Hyperion
Inquisition
1930
1936
6-e
19>
 Ancestor duplications:Nijinsky3m x 5m Literat4m x 5f Surama4m x 3f 
  Neckar5m x 5f Kaiserkrone5m x 5f Love In4f x 5f
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2025 at 10:45am
And for balance in a pedigree look at these two Australian greats

MATRICE (AUS)Chestnut colt 1951 
Masthead
Chestnut 1944
Blue Peter
Chestnut 1936
Fairway
Bay 1925
Phalaris
Brown 1913
Polymelus
Bromus
1902
1905
3-f
1-i
Scapa Flow
Chestnut 1914
Chaucer
Anchora
1900
1905
1-g
13-e
Fancy Free
Bay 1924
Stefan the Great
Grey 1916
The Tetrarch
Perfect Peach
1911
1907
2-o
2-e
Celiba
Bay 1916
Bachelor's Double
Santa Maura
1906
1893
21-a
20-c
Schiaparelli
Bay 1935
Schiavoni
Bay 1922
Swynford
Brown 1907
John o' Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901
1893
3-e
1-g
Serenissima
Bay 1913
Minoru
Gondolette
1906
1902
5-c
6-e
Aileen
Chestnut 1918
Nimbus
Chestnut 1910
Elf
Nephte
1893
1903
4-d
5-i
Yveline
Bay 1913
Gardefeu
Photime
1895
1907
6-b
8-c
La Patrice
Chestnut 1941
St Magnus
Brown 1933
Sansovino
Bay 1921
Swynford
Brown 1907
John o' Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901
1893
3-e
1-g
Gondolette
Bay 1902
Loved One
Dongola
1883
1883
1-g
6-e
Fair Isle
Bay or brown 1927
Phalaris
Brown 1913
Polymelus
Bromus
1902
1905
3-f
1-i
Scapa Flow
Chestnut 1914
Chaucer
Anchora
1900
1905
1-g
13-e
La Joconde
Bay 1928
Heroic
Chestnut 1921
Valais
Chestnut 1913
Cicero
Lily of the Valley
1902
1899
1-l
8-d
Chersonese
Bay 1915
Cylgad
Chelandry
1909
1894
22-d
1-n
Bronacre
Bay 1921
Linacre
Brown 1904
Wolf's Crag
Lismaine
1890
1898
15-b
8-c
Bronze Cross
Bay 1916
Bronzino
Criss Cross
1907
1906
1-e
7-d
 Ancestor duplications:Phalaris4m x 4f Scapa Flow4m x 4f Swynford4m x 4m 
  Gondolette5f x 4m     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2025 at 10:46am
NORTHERLY (AUS)Bay gelding 1996 
Serheed
Bay 1980
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Brown 1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935
1944
4-r
14-c
Natalma
Bay 1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950
1947
5-f
2-d
Flaming Page
Bay 1959
Bull Page
Bay or brown 1947
Bull Lea
Our Page
1935
1940
9-f
4-m
Flaring Top
Chestnut 1947
Menow
Flaming Top
1935
1941
8-g
8-f
Native Partner
Bay 1966
Raise a Native
Chestnut 1961
Native Dancer
Grey 1950
Polynesian
Geisha
1942
1943
14-a
5-f
Raise You
Chestnut 1946
Case Ace
Lady Glory
1934
1934
1-k
8-f
Dinner Partner
Bay 1959
Tom Fool
Bay 1949
Menow
Gaga
1935
1942
8-g
3-j
Bluehaze
Bay 1945
Blue Larkspur
Flaming Swords
1926
1933
8-f
7>
North Bell
Brown 1988
Bellwater
Bay 1982
Bellypha
Grey 1976
Lyphard
Bay 1969
Northern Dancer
Goofed
1961
1960
2-d
17-b
Belga
Grey 1968
Le Fabuleux
Belle de Retz
1961
1962
13-c
16-b
Paddle
Brown 1975
Jim French
Bay or brown 1968
Graustark
Dinner Partner
1963
1959
4-d
7>
Pram
Brown 1969
Fine Top
Gourabe
1949
1950
8-d
26>
North Fleur
Bay or brown 1981
Far North
Bay 1973
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fleur
Bay 1964
Victoria Park
Flaming Page
1957
1959
10-c
8-f
Yoka
Bay 1976
Triple Bend
Bay or brown 1968
Never Bend
Triple Orbit
1960
1961
19-b
3-o
Royal Hula
Chestnut 1966
Raise a Native
Grecian Queen
1961
1950
8-f
9-a
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer3m x 5m,4m Native Dancer5f,4m x Flaming Page3m x 5f 
  Menow5f,5m x Raise a Native3f x 5f Dinner Partner3f x 5m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2025 at 10:47am
m x f in both females - that is so hard to do!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2025 at 8:24am
I got a phone call a few hours ago telling me my mare Maymay had to be euthanized. She could have produced many good foals but it was not to be. Her 2025 filly foal is six weeks old.
foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mc41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2025 at 11:13am
Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

I got a phone call a few hours ago telling me my mare Maymay had to be euthanized. She could have produced many good foals but it was not to be. Her 2025 filly foal is six weeks old.
Sorry to hear 
acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the land on which we meet and pay my respects to their Elders past and present
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2025 at 12:07pm
So sorry Diomed.  I presume she was the Fr mare Maymay.  Will the filly foal survive?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2025 at 10:37pm
Hello,
out of curiosity I checked the ped of the sadly deceased Broodmare  "Maymay".

Interestingly a "Hypomating" (2023) was available, btw a remarkable ped.
Headman - Maymay by Cloth of Stars:

3x4 Zamindar/Western Appeal FB/FS
4x4 Hope/ Wemyess Bight FS's
4x4 Sadlers Wells
4x4 Kingmambo
4x5 Green Forest
4x5 Allegretta
5x5 Shirley Heights
5x5 Dancing Brave

regards, Ticino

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2025 at 7:45am
Her six week old filly foal is very active and very correct. She had an unusual habit - she led her dam out to the field, not following like other foals.
She will be bottle fed and bucket fed.

Yes, that hypo-mating on pedigreequery is the filly foal - the same pedigree as posted above.

I contacted the stud that stands the sire I hoped to send her to in April 2026 to tell them the bad news.
foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2025 at 8:00am
My guess is the hypo-mating was input by a person in Australia that I swap e-mails with about pedigrees - his horses and mine, and any of good horses that have interesting features.
foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2025 at 8:03am
Shortly before the bad news phone call I watched my gelding Saint Eligius finishing 3rd of 15 in a handicap in France.
This game is highs and lows.
foalmare.com - my thoughts about pedigree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2025 at 2:16pm
Sad news about your mare.  Fingers crossed her foal does his Mum proud. 
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2025 at 2:45pm
A winner of three including today this on is interesting and one I've followed from the sales.  I've noticed Darby have a similar eye to me.  I have followed a fair amount of ones they have bought!
RAGING FORCE (AUS)Bay gelding 2022 
Cosmic Force
Bay or brown 2016
Deep Field
Bay 2010
Northern Meteor
Bay 2005
Encosta de Lago
Bay 1993
Fairy King
Shoal Creek
1982
1988
5-h
4-g
Explosive
Bay 1990
Fappiano
Scuff
1977
1979
16-a
5-h
Listen Here
Chestnut 2004
Elusive Quality
Bay 1993
Gone West
Touch of Greatness
1984
1986
2-f
13-c
Announce
Bay 1994
Military Plume
Theme Song
1983
1987
10-d
9-c
Little Zeta
Bay 2004
Commands
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Cotehele House
Brown or black 1980
My Swanee
Eight Carat
1963
1975
8-j
9-c
Catherine Zeta
Bay 1998
Quest for Fame
Bay or brown 1987
Rainbow Quest
Aryenne
1981
1977
14-f
4-i
Great Temptation
Brown 1987
Luskin Star
Far Better
1974
1974
2-e
6-c
Miss Loren
Bay 2012
Stryker
Bay 2006
Fastnet Rock
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Piccadilly Circus
Bay 1995
Royal Academy
Gatana
1987
1989
8-c
2-f
Laetitia
Chestnut 1998
Woodman
Chestnut 1983
Mr Prospector
Playmate
1970
1975
13-c
1-s
Planet Hollywood
Chestnut 1990
Star Watch
Joy and Fun
1985
1978
14-a
16-c
Constant in Opal
Chestnut 1997
Lake Coniston
Bay 1991
Bluebird
Bay 1984
Storm Bird
Ivory Dawn
1978
1978
4-j
9-b
Persian Polly
Chestnut 1980
Persian Bold
Polyester Girl
1975
1974
9-h
5-d
Star Gem
Chestnut 1984
Kaoru Star
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Kaoru
1946
1955
1-g
31>
Miss Outlaw
Bay or brown 1969
Renegade
Vistego
1956
1964
12-d
6-c
 Ancestor duplications:Danehill4m x 4m       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2025 at 3:53pm
Slowdown will be pleased.  He has his eye on Cosmic Force.
And Stryker stands out for me being a Cangon horse.
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2025 at 5:29am
The filly foal born 17th May 2025 (mentioned in my post  22 May 2025 at 11:38am) was put down this afternoon. She had a twisted gut.
Her dam was put down on 2nd July 2025.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2025 at 9:07am
Oh so much bad luck.  So sorry diomed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2025 at 11:37pm
Hello,
I had a look at the first foals of "Torquator Tasso".

I spot in some of the foals, so far listed at pedquery interesting pattern,
especially with the "Alveole/Aster" Family.

Allino (TT - Alira by Soldier Hollow), colt
4x5 Allegretta/Alya (FS) + Anna Charlotte (HS)
3x3 In the Wings
4x4 Acatenango
damsire 4x4 Special/Lisadell


Unnamed (TT - La Maddalena by Sea the Stars)
4x5x5 Allegretta/Alya (FS)
4x5 Acatenango
5x5 Surumu
dam 4x4 Danzig

Auxerre (TT - Apremont by Le Havre)
4x5x5 Allegretta/Alya (FS)
4x5 Sadlers Wells
5x5 ND

BTW, the dam of "Toylsome" is very inbred

regards, Ticino




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