Thoroughbred Village Home Page. Free horse racing tips at Villagebet.com.au. Contact The Mayor by email: Click Here.
Forum Home Forum Home > Horse Breeding - Public Forums > Breeding Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Sire suggestions
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


OldGill.com.au

Sire suggestions

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
VOYAGER View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19504
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sire suggestions
    Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 9:20pm
Sorry guys to ask but I have a share in a mare who is entering her first breeding season and I am in need of some advice.

The mares name is Miss Statement, by Press Statement out of the Tale Of The Cat mare Arziki. The dam is a sister to November Flight which means she is from the family of Pierata and Ashokan among others.

My syndicate have decided on three options, to chose from.

1. Profiteer.

2. Tassort. 2nd in a Silver Slipper and from the family of Alizee and Astern.

3. Graff. San Domenico winner, 3rd in the Golden Rose, 4th in the Newmarket and 5th in The Everest.

Any assistance would be much appreciated from people with more knowledge of breeding than myself Thumbs Up   
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
Back to Top
Second Chance View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 56826
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 9:49pm
All I can offer is that you pay nothing more than the following for the three choices, particularly give the 1st and 3rd are standing their 3rd season which is always a hard sell:

Profiteer: $8,800
Tassort: $6,600
Graff: a couple of cases of Fourex.
Back to Top
Gay3 View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Miners Rest
Status: Offline
Points: 55608
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:15pm
For no particular reason, I reckon I looked at more Tassort yearling pics than any other sire & remember thinking not one looked like another physically or colour. I wasn't impressed by any & just thought I'd mention it as I know many put a lot of faith in stallions throwing 'to type' Big smile
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
Back to Top
rem286 View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 17 Mar 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 767
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rem286 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:30pm
Have you considered Cosmic Force?  I was offered him for $5500 this season.  Throws a nice type and were popular of a modest service fee.

If you are set on one of the 3 listed, I would be going for Tassort who I believe you can also get into at $5500.
Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 30976
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 1:09pm
I think you looking at Sir Tristram or Zabeel crosses except for the cross to the dam of both Snitzel and Hinchinbrook with Profiteer.  But that pedigree looks to busy for my taste.  And remember Profiteer did have a tendency to overrace.  He could be a great cross for a placid middle distance mare but that's not what you have.

Now with the Tassort you looking at Triscay to bring in the Sir Tristram blood and of course you also get a line of Century through her daughter La Baraka but once again your filly had one win and so did Tassort.  Maybe you need a bit more oomph in the mix.

Graff gives you a better race record and at least won or placed up to 1400m.  But on the down side your Sir Trsitram is through two sire sons and without the female cross.  But both Graff and Tassort have a nice clean page.  Pity Astern wasn't a tad cheaper as he has proven to get a good horse and also carries the Century/ female Sir Tristram cross which Tassort has.

Goldey mentioned Cosmic Force above and this is also a cleaner pedigree but carries Sir Tristram and the Kaoru Star/Better Boy blood which is deep in your female line.  He was also more of a speed horse but carries two lines of Eight Carat's daughter Cotehele House (dam of Commands and Danewin) as well as a line of Quest for Fame who can also give you a bit of oomph over that middle distance.

Alternativly you could go for the Fastnet Rock cross to the Sadler's Wells line with Peltzer giving you a very interesting cross with the m x f for Mr Prospector and the So You Think 13a Juliet line to Kaaptive Edition with his 13a Juliet line to go with all the Mr Prospector, Darshaan and Elusive Quality 13 c blood.  He was a speed son of So You Think but did win up to 1600m and gives you a more solid horse to cross to.
Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 30976
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 1:10pm
sorry Rem286 you mentioned Cosmic Force
Back to Top
Kimberley Mine View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 01 Oct 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 1522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 3:38pm
In all seriousness, Voyager, what is the syndicate's goal with this mare?   

If you're trying to breed to sell, two of the three options you list are very commercially risky 3rd crop sires and the third one's performance isn't exactly inspiring.

Graff has the best race record and best longevity of the bunch.  Star Witness has already produced one decent stallion son in Star Turn, so he also has that going for them.

Tassort...how sound is your mare?  Was she sound enough to risk on an unproven stallion who only raced twice?  And if you're selling, do you want to risk being in his 3rd crop if the first crop doesn't run at 2?  

I'm quite lukewarm towards Profiteer.  His big payday was in a restricted sales race.  He ran creditably in the Todman, behind Anamoe and ahead of Home Affairs, but failed to mature to that same level as a 3yo.  

I note that two of your three choices are at Newgate.  Do you have a connection there? Because if you do, Tiger of Malay has a better race record than Profiteer and in many ways a really interesting pedigree matchup.  He was 5th and far from disgraced behind In the Congo in the Golden Rose, which was easily the toughest field faced by either him, Tassort, or Profiteer (Gr-1 Anamoe, In the Congo, Artorious, Startantes, and Captivant; Gr-2 Jamaea, Coastwatch, Hilal).  Pedigree-wise, he has Easy Date, Hussonet (who has crossed well with Fastnet Rock to the tune of Gr-1 winner Shoals), and Bluebird, for a daughter line to Sir Ivor without Zabeel.  His sire Extreme Choice really brings this into focus -- for a start, his stakes-winning daughter Wollombi is out of a Hinchinbrook mare.  Meridius is out of a mare by a son of Fastnet Rock.  Stakes-placed Extremist is out of a Johannesburg mare, who is a 3/4 sibling to Tale of the Cat, and has Sir T further down his mare line.

If you're trying to breed a racehorse, Denman brings in the Zabeel line, is affordably priced, and can still sell for enough to be profitable, especially in the last few Inglis Highway sessions.
Back to Top
goldey View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 29 Dec 2012
Location: cairns
Status: Offline
Points: 6025
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 1:04am
Gee Wizz I like Daumier for a lot of reasons for her , what has worked with the female line , especially Bringing in Mill Reef,   Lohnro , another line of ciboulette , and a reasonably robust line of Danehill . Not sure if twin hills deals but they will want numbers initially .
Back to Top
VOYAGER View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 19504
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 5:34pm
The syndicate have indicated that both racing and selling the foal are options, with the choice right now to race.

I am not sure about the connection with Newgate, but the syndicate is a Australian Bloodstock syndicate so maybe they do have a connection with Newgate.

I am interested in Cosmic Force and Tiger Of Malay as sires and I will make those suggestions to the syndicate.

Thank you all for the feedback and advice Thumbs UpBeer 
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Premium
Premium
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 56200
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 6:00pm

  Unnamed    
Pierata (AUS)
Brown 2014
Pierro
Bay 2009
Lonhro
Brown 1998
Octagonal
Brown 1992
Zabeel
Eight Carat
1986
1975
16-c
9-c
Shadea
Bay 1988
Straight Strike
Concia
1977
1978
11>
8>
Miss Right Note
Grey 2003
Daylami
Grey 1994
Doyoun
Daltawa
1985
1989
21-a
9-e
Sky Song
Bay 1997
Sadler's Wells
Criquette
1981
1990
5-h
1-t
November Flight
Bay 2001
Flying Spur
Bay 1992
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Rolls
Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector
Grand Luxe
1970
1974
13-c
4-g
November Song
Bay 1995
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Lady Giselle
1971
1982
6-e
16-c
Chorus Star
Brown 1982
Kaoru Star
Century Miss
1965
1976
31>
29>
Miss Statement (AUS)
Bay 2018
Press Statement
Bay 2012
Hinchinbrook
Bay 2007
Fastnet Rock
Bay 2001
Danehill
Piccadilly Circus
1986
1995
2-d
2-f
Snippets' Lass
Bay 1993
Snippets
Snow Finch
1984
1984
20-a
2-c
Kaaptive Empress
Bay 1995
Kaaptive Edition
Grey 1989
Kaapstad
Bevcarlyn
1984
1980
9-c
13-a
Nile Empress
Bay 1981
Upper Nile
I Assume
1974
1972
26>
11>
Arziki
Chestnut 2007
Tale of the Cat
Bay or brown 1994
Storm Cat
Bay or brown 1983
Storm Bird
Terlingua
1978
1976
4-j
8-c
Yarn
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Narrate
1970
1980
13-c
2-f
November Song
Bay 1995
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Lady Giselle
1971
1982
6-e
16-c
Chorus Star
Brown 1982
Kaoru Star
Century Miss
1965
1976
31>
29>
  Ancestor duplications: Zabeel 5m,4f x 4f   Danehill 4m x 5m   Mr Prospector 5f x 5f  
    November Song 3f x 3f
reductio ad absurdum
Back to Top
Second Chance View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 56826
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 6:20pm
Interesting.
Back to Top
Gay3 View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Miners Rest
Status: Offline
Points: 55608
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 7:23pm
I love it, especially the sex balanced Zabeel x 3 Heart thanks djebel Thumbs Up
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
Back to Top
furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 30976
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 7:38pm
And a much better thought than the female cross in Profiteer.
Back to Top
Second Chance View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 56826
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 7:46pm
It's a lovely family however the last two generations have been very lacklustre.  Little will be gained by going to unproven stallions if only because because they won't sell. And now that we see Australian Bloodstock is involved why the hell not spend a decent dollar given they've apparently got plenty?


Back to Top
Gay3 View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Miners Rest
Status: Offline
Points: 55608
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 8:56pm
I wondered the same Confused
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
Back to Top
Kimberley Mine View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 01 Oct 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 1522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

It's a lovely family however the last two generations have been very lacklustre. 

If the goal here is to have a foal to race but have an option to sell, then it's in the shareholders' best interest to have a *proven* racehorse stallion whose fee is equal to or less than Profiteer's advertised fee.  You reduce the risk of being left holding the bag if an unproven horse is a bust at stud and if you do want to sell, you're going to want something more marketable to shore up the modest production of this branch of the family.

I've already mentioned Denman.  He's settled into a comfortable career as a useful sire of racehorses, will occasionally get a very good one, and if correctly placed will sell.  They've been selling well in Highway sessions these last few years.

A proven horse I actually like for this mare, if you can negotiate his fee down a bit, is Xtravagant.  His pedigree and race record reminds me of Pierata -- Zabeel stamina mixed with Century speed, best racing distance was 1400 - 1600 m.  He has three winners out of 4 to race out of Fastnet Rock mares, including one with 4 wins and is running at metro level in Vic (Bookman) and two more with three wins each, one of them at Matamata in NZ.  Out of 2 Hinchinbrook mares he has one winner who has 3 wins, including a win in Canberra and multiple placings at Randwick. 

If you're willing to ship to Victoria, Magnus would go brilliantly with this mare.  Flying Spur is the cross of Pierata's stakes-winning dam, plus he has Snippets speed.  He's as proven as it gets, is supported at auction, and standing for about the same advertised fee as Profiteer or Tiger of Malay.  

November Flight (by Flying Spur) has also produced a graded stakes winner by More than Ready...Sebring is by More than Ready out of a Flying Spur mare, and there are a few sons of Sebring to choose from.  Supido and Gold Standard are probably the most likely to be commercial.  It's worth noting that Sejardan is out of a Hinchinbrook mare.

Finally, with a fee that includes a complimentary consultation visit from the Management of Expectations Fairy, Casino Prince (a) is a proven cross with Zabeel, (b) Flying Spur worked with this family, and (c) he is extremely affordable.  A foal on this cross won't be commercial, but they're sound, good-value runners.  80% of his foals race, and of his runners, 3/4 of them win.
Back to Top
Kimberley Mine View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 01 Oct 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 1522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

And now that we see Australian Bloodstock is involved why the hell not spend a decent dollar given they've apparently got plenty?

Spending more money may not get as good a result as spending smart money.  The dam's best runner (2 wins at Toowomba) is by Casino Prince.  A trip to Magnus would be a step up in quality for this mare, but at lower risk than All Too Hard in the event the syndicate wants to sell and Miss Statement's sister don't help her out.
Back to Top
Second Chance View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 56826
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 4:13pm
Yes KM, the options open right up given the ownership.

Magnus would certainly suit, as he indeed does with a lot of mares, however I've sort of given up recommending him only for the suggestion to be overlooked. Cry 
And Xtravagant is an up and comer who also really suits from a line-breeding perspective.  Thumbs Up  
Back to Top
Gay3 View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Miners Rest
Status: Offline
Points: 55608
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2024 at 4:49pm
This is a rather sad update Cry

Miss Statement (AUS) 2018
 Life Number: AUS01185698bay mareDate of Birth: 15/11/2018 
 Microchip Number: 985100012156179DNA Typed: Y 
 by Press Statement (AUS) 2012Contact: Australian Bloodstock, NSW 
 from Arziki (AUS) 2007Deceased (04/09/2024) 
 bred by Vinery Stud (Australia) Pty Ltd, NSW 
Australian Breeding Record
  Printable Version
SeasonDOBColourSexName or Last
Service Date
SireComment
202426/08bcolt09/09/2023Profiteer (AUS)foal deceased after birth
It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.05
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.