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VOYAGER
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Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 19504 |
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Topic: Sire suggestionsPosted: 08 Jun 2023 at 9:20pm |
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Sorry guys to ask but I have a share in a mare who is entering her first breeding season and I am in need of some advice.
The mares name is Miss Statement, by Press Statement out of the Tale Of The Cat mare Arziki. The dam is a sister to November Flight which means she is from the family of Pierata and Ashokan among others. My syndicate have decided on three options, to chose from. 1. Profiteer. 2. Tassort. 2nd in a Silver Slipper and from the family of Alizee and Astern. 3. Graff. San Domenico winner, 3rd in the Golden Rose, 4th in the Newmarket and 5th in The Everest. Any assistance would be much appreciated from people with more knowledge of breeding than myself
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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Second Chance
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Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 56826 |
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Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 9:49pm |
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All I can offer is that you pay nothing more than the following for the three choices, particularly give the 1st and 3rd are standing their 3rd season which is always a hard sell:
Profiteer: $8,800 Tassort: $6,600 Graff: a couple of cases of Fourex.
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Gay3
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Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 55608 |
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Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:15pm |
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For no particular reason, I reckon I looked at more Tassort yearling pics than any other sire & remember thinking not one looked like another physically or colour. I wasn't impressed by any & just thought I'd mention it as I know many put a lot of faith in stallions throwing 'to type'
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It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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rem286
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Joined: 17 Mar 2015 Status: Offline Points: 767 |
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Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:30pm |
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Have you considered Cosmic Force? I was offered him for $5500 this season. Throws a nice type and were popular of a modest service fee.
If you are set on one of the 3 listed, I would be going for Tassort who I believe you can also get into at $5500.
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furious
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Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 1:09pm |
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I think you looking at Sir Tristram or Zabeel crosses except for the cross to the dam of both Snitzel and Hinchinbrook with Profiteer. But that pedigree looks to busy for my taste. And remember Profiteer did have a tendency to overrace. He could be a great cross for a placid middle distance mare but that's not what you have.
Now with the Tassort you looking at Triscay to bring in the Sir Tristram blood and of course you also get a line of Century through her daughter La Baraka but once again your filly had one win and so did Tassort. Maybe you need a bit more oomph in the mix. Graff gives you a better race record and at least won or placed up to 1400m. But on the down side your Sir Trsitram is through two sire sons and without the female cross. But both Graff and Tassort have a nice clean page. Pity Astern wasn't a tad cheaper as he has proven to get a good horse and also carries the Century/ female Sir Tristram cross which Tassort has. Goldey mentioned Cosmic Force above and this is also a cleaner pedigree but carries Sir Tristram and the Kaoru Star/Better Boy blood which is deep in your female line. He was also more of a speed horse but carries two lines of Eight Carat's daughter Cotehele House (dam of Commands and Danewin) as well as a line of Quest for Fame who can also give you a bit of oomph over that middle distance. Alternativly you could go for the Fastnet Rock cross to the Sadler's Wells line with Peltzer giving you a very interesting cross with the m x f for Mr Prospector and the So You Think 13a Juliet line to Kaaptive Edition with his 13a Juliet line to go with all the Mr Prospector, Darshaan and Elusive Quality 13 c blood. He was a speed son of So You Think but did win up to 1600m and gives you a more solid horse to cross to.
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furious
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Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 1:10pm |
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sorry Rem286 you mentioned Cosmic Force
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Kimberley Mine
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Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 3:38pm |
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In all seriousness, Voyager, what is the syndicate's goal with this mare?
If you're trying to breed to sell, two of the three options you list are very commercially risky 3rd crop sires and the third one's performance isn't exactly inspiring. Graff has the best race record and best longevity of the bunch. Star Witness has already produced one decent stallion son in Star Turn, so he also has that going for them. Tassort...how sound is your mare? Was she sound enough to risk on an unproven stallion who only raced twice? And if you're selling, do you want to risk being in his 3rd crop if the first crop doesn't run at 2? I'm quite lukewarm towards Profiteer. His big payday was in a restricted sales race. He ran creditably in the Todman, behind Anamoe and ahead of Home Affairs, but failed to mature to that same level as a 3yo. I note that two of your three choices are at Newgate. Do you have a connection there? Because if you do, Tiger of Malay has a better race record than Profiteer and in many ways a really interesting pedigree matchup. He was 5th and far from disgraced behind In the Congo in the Golden Rose, which was easily the toughest field faced by either him, Tassort, or Profiteer (Gr-1 Anamoe, In the Congo, Artorious, Startantes, and Captivant; Gr-2 Jamaea, Coastwatch, Hilal). Pedigree-wise, he has Easy Date, Hussonet (who has crossed well with Fastnet Rock to the tune of Gr-1 winner Shoals), and Bluebird, for a daughter line to Sir Ivor without Zabeel. His sire Extreme Choice really brings this into focus -- for a start, his stakes-winning daughter Wollombi is out of a Hinchinbrook mare. Meridius is out of a mare by a son of Fastnet Rock. Stakes-placed Extremist is out of a Johannesburg mare, who is a 3/4 sibling to Tale of the Cat, and has Sir T further down his mare line. If you're trying to breed a racehorse, Denman brings in the Zabeel line, is affordably priced, and can still sell for enough to be profitable, especially in the last few Inglis Highway sessions.
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goldey
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Posted: 10 Jun 2023 at 1:04am |
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Gee Wizz I like Daumier for a lot of reasons for her , what has worked with the female line , especially Bringing in Mill Reef, Lohnro , another line of ciboulette , and a reasonably robust line of Danehill . Not sure if twin hills deals but they will want numbers initially .
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VOYAGER
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Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 5:34pm |
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The syndicate have indicated that both racing and selling the foal are options, with the choice right now to race.
I am not sure about the connection with Newgate, but the syndicate is a Australian Bloodstock syndicate so maybe they do have a connection with Newgate. I am interested in Cosmic Force and Tiger Of Malay as sires and I will make those suggestions to the syndicate. Thank you all for the feedback and advice
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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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djebel
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Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 6:00pm |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
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Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 56826 |
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Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 6:20pm |
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Interesting.
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Gay3
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Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 7:23pm |
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I love it, especially the sex balanced Zabeel x 3
thanks djebel
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It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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furious
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Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 7:38pm |
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And a much better thought than the female cross in Profiteer.
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Second Chance
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Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 7:46pm |
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It's a lovely family however the last two generations have been very lacklustre. Little will be gained by going to unproven stallions if only because because they won't sell. And now that we see Australian Bloodstock is involved why the hell not spend a decent dollar given they've apparently got plenty?
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Gay3
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Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 8:56pm |
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I wondered the same
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It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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Kimberley Mine
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Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 3:27pm |
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If the goal here is to have a foal to race but have an option to sell, then it's in the shareholders' best interest to have a *proven* racehorse stallion whose fee is equal to or less than Profiteer's advertised fee. You reduce the risk of being left holding the bag if an unproven horse is a bust at stud and if you do want to sell, you're going to want something more marketable to shore up the modest production of this branch of the family. I've already mentioned Denman. He's settled into a comfortable career as a useful sire of racehorses, will occasionally get a very good one, and if correctly placed will sell. They've been selling well in Highway sessions these last few years. A proven horse I actually like for this mare, if you can negotiate his fee down a bit, is Xtravagant. His pedigree and race record reminds me of Pierata -- Zabeel stamina mixed with Century speed, best racing distance was 1400 - 1600 m. He has three winners out of 4 to race out of Fastnet Rock mares, including one with 4 wins and is running at metro level in Vic (Bookman) and two more with three wins each, one of them at Matamata in NZ. Out of 2 Hinchinbrook mares he has one winner who has 3 wins, including a win in Canberra and multiple placings at Randwick. If you're willing to ship to Victoria, Magnus would go brilliantly with this mare. Flying Spur is the cross of Pierata's stakes-winning dam, plus he has Snippets speed. He's as proven as it gets, is supported at auction, and standing for about the same advertised fee as Profiteer or Tiger of Malay. November Flight (by Flying Spur) has also produced a graded stakes winner by More than Ready...Sebring is by More than Ready out of a Flying Spur mare, and there are a few sons of Sebring to choose from. Supido and Gold Standard are probably the most likely to be commercial. It's worth noting that Sejardan is out of a Hinchinbrook mare. Finally, with a fee that includes a complimentary consultation visit from the Management of Expectations Fairy, Casino Prince (a) is a proven cross with Zabeel, (b) Flying Spur worked with this family, and (c) he is extremely affordable. A foal on this cross won't be commercial, but they're sound, good-value runners. 80% of his foals race, and of his runners, 3/4 of them win.
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Kimberley Mine
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Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 4:01pm |
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Spending more money may not get as good a result as spending smart money. The dam's best runner (2 wins at Toowomba) is by Casino Prince. A trip to Magnus would be a step up in quality for this mare, but at lower risk than All Too Hard in the event the syndicate wants to sell and Miss Statement's sister don't help her out.
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Second Chance
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Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 4:13pm |
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Yes KM, the options open right up given the ownership. And Xtravagant is an up and comer who also really suits from a line-breeding perspective.
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Gay3
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Posted: 07 Oct 2024 at 4:49pm |
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This is a rather sad update
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It takes a wise man a lifetime to grow a tree and a fool five minutes to kill one.
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