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Conformational defects, and effects

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Take2 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Jan 2026 at 9:36pm
posted this on another thread in diff forum, should have just posted here, this is a list i compiled using some google input, highlighting what happens and how a horse copes, or compensates, for sometimes blatant defects
now this will keep ya onya toes  about conformational defects 
Phar Lap: Australia's most iconic champion was famously considered an "ugly duckling" as a yearling. He had neither the looks nor obvious racing potential, leading to him being leased cheaply by trainer Harry Telford. Despite his initially unpromising appearance, he won 37 of 51 starts, including the 1930 Melbourne Cup.

Northerly: Known as the "ugly duckling" from Western Australia, he was born with crooked legs and without a pulse. Despite these severe early physical issues, he became a multiple Group 1 winner, securing two Cox Plates and a Caulfield Cup.

I Wish I Win: This modern champion was born with severely deformed front legs. His deformities were so obvious that he was never sent to yearling sales. He overcame these flaws to win major races, including the Golden Eagle in 2022 and the Kingsford Smith Cup in 2024.

Gunsynd: The "Goondiwindi Grey" was purchased for a bargain $1,300 after knocking his knee in the float on the way to the sales, which scared off many potential buyers. Though not considered a "classy" individual physically, he won 29 races and was named 1972 Horse of the Year.
Carbine: One of the greatest 19th-century champions, he famously suffered from a split hoof, which caused him to miss a race and plagued him throughout his career. Despite this chronic foot issue, he won 33 of 43 starts, including a record-breaking 1890 Melbourne Cup while carrying 66kg. 

Takeover Target, Joe Janiak's Champ also had problems. his primary conformational and physical flaws included:
"Bad Knees" and Joint Issues: He was widely known as a horse with "bad knees," having previously undergone surgery for bone chips. These issues, combined with persistent leg and joint soreness, were so severe that he was ruled out of racing for 30 months early in his life and did not make his professional debut until he was four years old.
Unconventional Action: Because of his knee issues, Takeover Target developed a distinctive, "unconventional" galloping style. He famously "threw" his near forefoot out in an arc as he galloped, a movement flaw so pronounced that Janiak initially feared officials might ban him for potentially tripping other horses.
Fragile Bone Structure: Throughout his career, he was plagued by chronic soundness issues, including stone bruises and hoof infections. His career ultimately ended when he sustained a catastrophic cracked cannon bone in his near hind leg during his final race at Newmarket in 2009. 
Despite these flaws, Janiak's patient management—including training the horse on the beach and using unconventional recovery methods—allowed "Archie" to become an eight-time Group 1 winner and a global sprinting icon.        
   
Seabiscuit: One of the most famous examples, Seabiscuit was notoriously described as "the opposite of a conformational success".
Defects: He had bucked knees (knees set forward) and disproportionately long cannon bones on his rear legs, which made his hocks sit higher than his knees.
Mechanics: These flaws typically cause a horse to stumble, yet Seabiscuit’s mechanics were saved by his sprung ribs and high neck tie-in, which provided the lung capacity and leverage needed to overcome his awkward leg structure.

Northern Dancer: Despite his massive influence on modern pedigrees, he was considered "diminutive" and failed to meet his reserve price as a yearling.
Defects: He stood only 14 hands high as a yearling (eventually maturing to roughly 15.1 hands) and developed a chronic quarter-crack on his left front hoof.
Mechanics: To compensate for his small stature, he relied on exceptionally powerful hindquarters that provided elite agility and balance. His injury required a specialized rubber shoe to protect the hoof while maintaining his gate-to-wire speed. His action was also something else, with a short choppy stride at the trot and canter

Ruffian: A brilliant but "genetically fragile" champion whose physical dominance masked underlying structural weaknesses.
Defects: She suffered from a weak bone structure believed to be inherited from her sire.
Mechanics: Experts believe her extreme speed and force placed stress on her frame that her bones ultimately could not handle, leading to her catastrophic injury during a high-pressure match race.

Arkle: Though widely considered the greatest steeplechaser, he had unusual conformation, including a very deep chest and an unconventional "sloping" hindquarters.
Mechanics: His mechanics were characterized by a massive stride and a unique jumping style where he appeared to "flow" over fences rather than using a traditional tuck, a result of his immense power and reach.

Not saying that any of the ones I have mentioned should be mentioned in the same breath as any of the above, however, it shows that a lot of conformational defects as well as mechanical issue can be overcome with the bodies own methods to correct for some of the issues, i should have put all this on the conformation thread, but seeing as it's relevent here...... While many champions are chosen for their physical perfection, some of the world's most legendary racehorses achieved greatness despite significant conformational flaws in their joints and limbs.

Seattle Slew: The 1977 American Triple Crown winner was notoriously overlooked as a yearling due to his "crooked" legs. Specifically, his right forefoot turned out from the knee down, resulting in a splay-footed gait. He was also described as being slightly buck-kneed in his right front leg.

Street Cry: A world-class runner (Dubai World Cup winner) and legendary sire of Zenyatta and Winx, Street Cry was known for having "dodgy knees". This trait was often passed down to his offspring, yet it did not prevent him or many of his progeny from reaching the highest levels of racing.
Bernborough: One of Australia's greatest post-war champions was often described as having an unconventional, almost "plain" appearance. He possessed a massive frame that placed immense pressure on his joints, leading to a career-ending injury to his sesamoid bone

Sunday Silence: The 1989 Kentucky Derby winner and Japanese sire legend was famously rejected at sales because he was "homely" and possessed sickle hocks (excessive curvature of the hock joint). Despite this defect, which often predisposes horses to hock strain and "curbs," his powerful hindquarter engine made him one of the most agile and dominant racers of his era.

St. Simon: One of the most influential sires in history was known for his short, upright back and hock conformation that some contemporary critics found less than ideal. His explosive speed, however, redefined the mechanics of the Thoroughbred. St Simon, as we all now is a linchpin of the Thoroughbred today as we know it, still, after many decades shows up to be in many cases still the predominant ancestor in a 12 generation pedigree, like it or lump it sprint. 

Northern Dancer: Standing only 14 hands high as a yearling, Northern Dancer was considered too small and "stocky". He had a very short, steep shoulder and upright pasterns, a combination that typically leads to a choppy, high-concussion stride. His mechanics overcame this through an exceptionally high cadence and the use of his low center of gravity to navigate tight turns.
Arkle: The greatest steeplechaser in history had an unusual "sloping" rump and an extremely deep shoulder, which gave him a unique galloping mechanic that looked more like "flowing" than traditional jumping.
Toed-out/Offset Knees: Horses like Seattle Slew often develop a "paddling" motion, where the foot swings in an outward arc. While this looks inefficient, it can actually serve as a protective mechanism by reducing the chance of knee fractures, as the force is distributed differently through the carpal joint.
Sickle Hocks: While traditionally seen as a weakness, a horse with sickle hocks can sometimes have "really active" hind legs, providing a coiled-spring effect for explosive acceleration, (some of the above and all the below is from google) sorry about the longwinded response but (as usual) A "sound pedigree" does not physically correct a conformational fault, but it can provide the functional biomechanics and resilience necessary for a horse to overcome physical limitations and succeed on the racetrack.

The Role of Pedigree in "Correcting" Faults
Inherited Fluidity: A strong pedigree often passes down a fluid, efficient stride that can minimize the stress placed on a flawed joint. For example, the legendary John Henry was "back at the knee" (a serious defect), but his pedigree-derived mechanics gave him an exceptionally efficient stride that protected his foreleg joints from excessive pounding.

Genetic Potential vs. Execution: Pedigree represents a horse's genetic potential, while conformation is the physical execution of that potential. A high-quality pedigree can provide the cardiovascular capacity and muscle type needed to power through mechanical inefficiencies caused by poor limb alignment.
Compensatory Strength: A horse with poor leg conformation can still excel if its pedigree provides exceptional strength in other areas, such as powerful hindquarters or a deep chest for lung capacity. 

Statistical Insights into Pedigree and Conformation< j
High Heritability of Defects: Studies show that conformational defects (like being toed-out or having offset knees) are more strongly linked to a horse's pedigree than to its actual racing performance.
Performance Resilience: Research has found no significant link between many common conformation defects and a horse's total career wins or starts. This suggests that a horse's genetic "engine"—determined by pedigree—often matters more for overall success than "textbook" physical alignment.

Sire Influence: Significant associations between racing performance and certain physical defects are often almost entirely explained by the effect of the sire. Some sire lines consistently produce "crooked" horses that still perform at elite levels because they inherit the sire's superior athletic traits.

Genotype vs. Phenotype: Interventions like corrective shoeing or surgery can fix the phenotype (the physical look) of a foal, but they do not change the genotype (the genetic blueprint). A "corrected" horse still carries the genetic predisposition to pass those flaws to its offspring.

Cumulative Stress: Even with a top-tier pedigree, severe conformational defects often lead to fewer starts as a two-year-old due to the increased physical stress of early training. 
These technical guides explain how a horse's genetic makeup, rather than its physical structure, can overcome conformational flaws to achieve racing success

change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GAJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2026 at 10:24pm
I remember seeing TOT at an exhibition gallop post retirement I think it was at Lismore 
He did not catch your eye and was quite different 
One thing stood out was the width of his hindquarters 

Another thing we miss in all our conformation critiques and pedigree analysis is the one thing we can not see — that is 
HEART. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2026 at 7:59am
"Another thing we miss in all our conformation critiques and pedigree analysis is the one thing we can not see — that is 
HEART. " Gaj                                                                                                                              Absolutely, and is usually found AFTER a horse begins racing, horses are competitive by nature, and some Horses treat racing as "Play" and sometime will not go past another horse till urged. However as shown below with C&P from Google intimates that successful mares may indeed, instill the Heart and Will to Win in their offspring

Germaine Vuillier, the wife of renowned pedigree theorist Colonel Jean-Jacques Vuillier, used the term "will to win," a quality she and her husband highly valued in thoroughbreds._

While her husband created the Vuillier Dosage System, Germaine continued his work for the Aga Khan's stables, often describing her role with the quote: “Call me, if you will, a 'mixer of cocktails'”

Key aspects of the Vuillier philosophy regarding a horse's competitive spirit

    • The Racecourse Test: The Vuilliers believed in testing a horse's physical stamina and "will to win" through actual performance rather than relying solely on ancestral statistics.
    • Genetic Balance: Germaine sought specific "traits that will dominate in the offspring," focusing on blending bloodlines to produce a winner rather than simple inbreeding, which she believed weakened the strain.
    • Avoiding Over-Inbreeding: She argued that "two pluses don't always yield a plus," preferring to find the right traits—including competitive drive—over mating two champion horses exclusively.  the following stats,   
    • A broodmare's racing performance correlates positively with the success rate of her progeny, particularly in achieving black type (stakes level) wins. However, less than 50% of all racehorses, on average, will ever win a race of any kind. 

These racing statistics show the relationship between a broodmare's racing record and her progeny's success in winning .                                                            Research from the US provides the following percentages of progeny that become stakes winners based on the dam's race record:

    • Graded Stakes-winning Mares: Progeny have an 8.2% chance of becoming stakes winners and a 4.1% chance of becoming graded stakes winners.
    • Stakes-winning Mares (not Graded): Progeny have a 6.2% chance of becoming stakes winners.
    • Unraced Mares: Progeny have a 3.6% chance of becoming stakes winners.
    • Mares Who Won at Least One Race (not black type placed): Progeny have a 3.2% chance of becoming stakes winners. 

Studies from Australia looking specifically at Group 1 race results over a decade show similar trends for elite performance:

    • Progeny of mares who won any race account for over 72% of Group 1 winners.
    • Progeny of unraced mares account for about 15% of Group 1 winners. 

While mares with better racing records are generally more likely to produce winners, opportunity and the quality of the stallion also play significant roles. High-quality sires are often paired with top-performing mares, which increases the likelihood of success for the offspring. 

.

    • Winning Success Rate: While the general average remains below 50%, specific professional syndicates often target a higher benchmark, such as a 20–29% annual winning strike rate for their active rosters.
    • Stakes Winners: Less than 1% of all racehorses ever win a major stakes race, such as the Kentucky Derby or the Golden Slipper.
    • Earnings and Profitability:
      • In the 2025/26 Australian season, only 1 in 40 horses earned more than $500,000, and just 1 in 116 earned over $1 million.
      • Historically, only about 13% of starters earn enough to cover their training and maintenance costs, with less than 2% actually being considered profitable "earning their keep".
    • Maidens: Any horse that has not yet won a race is classified as a "maiden". In a given year, approximately 60% of the horse population competing in some regions may fail to record a single win. 

 

"


Edited by Take2 - 14 Jan 2026 at 8:25am
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sister Dot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2026 at 10:24am
Cant help but think about the attrition rate in young horses. Large percentage don’t make it to the races. The above champs are the ‘freaks’ of the conformational world rather than the norm. I would never purchase a horse with weak conformation.  You’re almost betting against yourself?
One thing I’ve noticed is being  over at the knees seems to work fine but behind at the knees is a huge red flag. 
Of course being ‘ugly’ like poor Phar Lap isn’t a drawback unless you’re in a beauty contest …. 

“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2026 at 3:25pm
These statistics have problems.

There is a mania about Group races and black type.
There was a Group 1 race in France about two years ago with only two runners.
I have seen many Group races with only three runners.
The quality of many Group races is suspect, even though the placed horses must average 100 to 115 over a few years.

If a horse runs often enough in low grade handicaps it will probably eventually tick the winner box, but is that a measure of quality?

A horse (Yara) raced in Ireland in 1999 and 2000 and failed to win in 16 races, but placed 11 times, 9 of those in 2nd place, and won one race but was disqualified. 
Yara was rated 100, which is Group 3 standard, much better than many winners. 
She started her career with seven consecutive 2nd places, one of those a 2nd in a Group 1.

I compared dam ratings to the ratings of their offspring (69,135 runners).
The generally accepted link between dam rating and her runner rating is true, if you accept that only about 25% of the dams rating above the breed average of about 70 is inherited. 
A foal from a dam rated 110 will have a rating of about 70+((110-70) x 0.25) = 80 i.e. about 30 rating points below its dam.
And a runner from a lowly rated dam, say dam rated 30, will have a rating of about 60 i.e. be rated much higher than its dam.
We can assume that dams with high ratings are sent to the most expensive (and highest runner rated) sires.

My first ever runner (and bred by me) ran six times in France last year (one win, three 3rds).
He is out a mare who never raced, and her dam never raced, and her dam never raced.
He is out of a family of non-winners, no black type.

My analysis of all Group 1,2,3 races in IRE, GB, FR, GER, ITY, USA (Grade 1 only) from 1900 to 2015 had about 12% of the winners from Group race winning dams from those countries.
Or 88% of the Group race winners were from non-Group race winning dams.


Questions to be answered

Why are the vast majority (88%) of Group race winners out of lower level dams or unraced dams?
Why do runners out of top rated dams inherit almost none of the running ability of those top sires and top dams?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Freefall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2026 at 5:35pm
Find the answer to your last question Diomed and you’ll be eating caviar and drinking the best champagne for the rest of your life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rusty nails Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2026 at 7:37pm
Winx,black caviar et al come around every 5 years or so.
So there’s a 1/60,000 chance of getting one like them, and they usually have less than 10 foals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2026 at 2:31am
Originally posted by Freefall Freefall wrote:

Find the answer to your last question Diomed and you’ll be eating caviar and drinking the best champagne for the rest of your life.

I think I have partly answered it.
See foalmare.com which repackages the work of New Zealand researchers Harold Hampton and Clive Harper.

There are many instances (as yet) that need a bit of study.

On pedigreequery.com there are only two horses by Fairy King out of a Slewpy mare, Helissio (m) and Falbrav (m). 
Helissio wom seven Group 1s, Falbrav won eleven Group 1/Grade 1s.
They were out of useful dams, but not world beaters.
Both dams won one race from six starts in France.
If you are looking for a label you could call it a nick. 
It was 100% successful, but the sample is only two.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2026 at 11:24am
Tonight I found a clue in Slewpy's pedigree that might explain the ability of Falbrav and Helissio.
This is hard to believe but the explanation might go back to a horse born before the United States declaration of independence.
That led me to other pedigrees. A moderate sire that sired two famous sire sons has the same influential ancestor far back.
Am what I am finding in these horses only or is it in the majority of horses?  I need to do a bit of work.
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