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Frankel

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Morston View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by acacia alba acacia alba wrote:

Frankel got his Group 1 winner in the Oaks, ridden by 48 year old Frankie.


Frankel has had several Group 1 winners....This was his first classic winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 5:01pm
^^^^^^  Whoops Embarrassed  Thanks for setting it right, Morston.  Thumbs Up
animals before people.
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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 5:46pm
First European Classic winner, He has had a Japanese Classic winner.

😊
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 5:58pm
Interestingly his Japanese Classic winner Soul Stirring was entirely European, being out of a Monsun mare.

And Monsun is making a name for himself in Oz also, not least being his three Melbourne Cup winners Almandin, Protectionist and Fiorente, the last of which now making a name for himself as a very successful sire downunder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

First European Classic winner, He has had a Japanese Classic winner.

😊


Whoops!

My bad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 10:02pm
Lee Freedman visits FRANKEL
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 12:23am
Whoopee LOL  If I was clever enough I could post pics of me with Frankel.  So what does this pic mean ?  Confused
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2019 at 1:55pm
Unnamed  
Frankel Star (AUS)
Bay 2015
Frankel
Bay 2008
Galileo
Bay 1998
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Fairy Bridge
1961
1975
2-d
5-h
Urban Sea
Chestnut 1989
Miswaki
Allegretta
1978
1978
16-g
9-h
Kind
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Rainbow Lake
Bay 1990
Rainbow Quest
Rockfest
1981
1979
14-f
1-k
Deedra
Bay 2004
Zabeel
Bay 1986
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Lady Giselle
Bay 1982
Nureyev
Valderna
1977
1972
5-h
16-c
Joie Denise
Bay 1991
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Denise's Joy
Bay 1972
Seventh Hussar
Fun for All
1966
1959
14-c
16-c
Winning Ways (AUS)
Chestnut 2015
Declaration of War
Bay 2009
War Front
Bay 2002
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Starry Dreamer
Grey 1994
Rubiano
Lara's Star
1987
1981
3-o
4-r
Tempo West
Chestnut 1999
Rahy
Chestnut 1985
Blushing Groom
Glorious Song
1974
1976
22-d
12-c
Tempo
Chestnut 1992
Gone West
Terpsichorist
1984
1975
2-f
13-b
Skip Along
Chestnut 2008
Galileo
Bay 1998
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Fairy Bridge
1961
1975
2-d
5-h
Urban Sea
Chestnut 1989
Miswaki
Allegretta
1978
1978
16-g
9-h
Peony
Chestnut 1997
Lion Cavern
Chestnut 1989
Mr Prospector
Secrettame
1970
1978
13-c
2-f
Persiandale
Chestnut 1983
Persian Bold
Wharfedale
1975
1960
9-h
6-f
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m x 5m,5m Galileo3m x 3f Danzig5m,5m x 4m 
  Danehill4f,4f x
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2021 at 7:55pm
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sister Dot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 7:16am
Frankel at work, you can’t tell a good one by just looking at them? Big smile 



“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horlicks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2022 at 8:08pm
Juddmonte have announced Frankel's 2023 fee will be 275,000 pounds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 7:16am
Originally posted by horlicks horlicks wrote:

Juddmonte have announced Frankel's 2023 fee will be 275,000 pounds

That's in line with the other top names in the market.  

Dubawi is listed at 250,000 GBP.
Lope de Vega is listed at 220,000 EUR, or about 193,000 GBP.
Wootton Bassett is at 150,000 EUR -- he's probably getting the best mares of his life this year

In North America, Curlin US$225k, Into Mischief US$250k, and Quality Road at US$200k are the top three (with Gun Runner private treaty and probably well above $200k).  Flightline's announced fee is set at $200k.

Heart's Cry is currently private treaty.  Lord Kanaloa is a relative bargain at about $90k GBP.


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Kimberley Mine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 8:37am
And no sooner did I type that than it's released that Dubawi will stand for GBP 350,000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2022 at 4:12pm
Not that I'm paying any attention but it seems as if Frankel as a sire is a continuation of Galileo - the good ones are all 2000m up - where you would expect a great miler to also have sprinters and milers. Who is the best Frankel sprinter? Who is the best Frankel miler?

Just checked. Inspiral has one open G1 win at a mile.
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2023 at 1:36am
When you add his burgeoning stallion career to his racing career Frankel has to be the greatest thoroughbred in history. 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VSP. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2023 at 1:28am
Has anyone ever seen anything like Frankel at this Royal Ascot meeting? 
Three days so far, and three NEW Group One winners to Frankel, not his established stars but brand new high class horses coming through.
What an amazing effort. Freak sire. Love him, and especially when they also go so well in Australia!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2023 at 1:29am
And now a Gold Cup.

The greatest thoroughbred anybody has ever seen.
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2023 at 1:31am

  COURAGE MON AMI (GB) Bay colt 2019  
Frankel
Bay 2008
Galileo
Bay 1998
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Urban Sea
Chestnut 1989
Miswaki
Chestnut 1978
Mr Prospector
Hopespringseternal
1970
1971
13-c
16-g
Allegretta
Chestnut 1978
Lombard
Anatevka
1967
1969
1-d
9-h
Kind
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Rainbow Lake
Bay 1990
Rainbow Quest
Bay 1981
Blushing Groom
I Will Follow
1974
1975
22-d
14-f
Rockfest
Chestnut 1979
Stage Door Johnny
Rock Garden
1965
1970
1-l
1-k
Crimson Ribbon
Bay 2006
Lemon Drop Kid
Bay 1996
Kingmambo
Bay 1990
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Miesque
Bay 1984
Nureyev
Pasadoble
1977
1979
5-h
20>
Charming Lassie
Bay or brown 1987
Seattle Slew
Bay or brown 1974
Bold Reasoning
My Charmer
1968
1969
1-k
13-c
Lassie Dear
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Gay Missile
1963
1967
1-s
3-l
Victoria Cross
Bay or brown 1998
Mark of Esteem
Bay 1993
Darshaan
Brown 1981
Shirley Heights
Delsy
1975
1972
1-l
13-c
Homage
Bay 1989
Ajdal
Home Love
1984
1976
7>
17-b
Glowing With Pride
Brown 1981
Ile de Bourbon
Bay 1975
Nijinsky
Roseliere
1967
1965
8-f
4-i
Be Easy
Grey 1974
Be Friendly
Easy to Love
1964
1961
5-d
1-m
  Ancestor duplications: Northern Dancer 4m,5m x   Mr Prospector 5m x 4m
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2023 at 1:31am
At just his 4th start he has won an Ascot Gold Cup.
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foxseal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2023 at 7:53am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

At just his 4th start he has won an Ascot Gold Cup.
Is this the most inexperienced Ascot Gold Cup winner in history?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2023 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

When you add his burgeoning stallion career to his racing career Frankel has to be the greatest thoroughbred in history. 

He's been truly magnificent, albeit over the very best of broodmares and 150 mares plus a season.

However he's got a very, very long way to go before eclipsing Northern Dancer, interestingly from whose sire line both his sire and dam descend. 

By the time Frankel retires from stud duty, provided he stays healthy, he'll have served at very least four times the number of mares as did ND.  Indeed he's already sired twice as many foals as did ND. So his opportunity as a sire far exceeds that accorded ND.

And ND proved an absolutely outstanding sire of sires, which Frankel may emulate however that's as yet a moot point.

And finally ND was an extraordinarily successful broodmare sire: once again a "watch this space" for Frankel.

He may well emulate ND, but a case of premature ejaculation just yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2023 at 7:44pm
A fitting legacy of his illustrious sire, 2 Grandsires and Urban Sea, the mother of all mothers
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2023 at 8:08pm
Northern Dancer was a very good racehorse but would not be considered in the same league as Frankel.

Frankel is arguably well on the way to being in the same league as Northern Dancer as a sire. 

Hence Frankel is the greater thoroughbred. 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VSP. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2023 at 10:46pm
Let him prove he is a breed shaper Djebel, then he can stake a claim.
He's a super racehorse, super sire, & hopefully will also be a super broodmare sire & sire of sires.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2023 at 8:54am
This isn't a bad resume:

Record18: 14–2–2
Major wins
Summer Stakes (1963)
Coronation Futurity Stakes (1963)
Remsen Stakes (1963)
Flamingo Stakes (1964)
Florida Derby (1964)
Blue Grass Stakes (1964)
Queen's Plate (1964)

American Classics wins:
Kentucky Derby (1964)
Preakness Stakes (1964)

Awards
U.S. Champion 3-Yr-Old Colt (1964)
Canadian Horse of the Year (1964)
Canadian Champion Two-Year-Old (1963)
Canadian Champion Three-Year-Old (1964)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2023 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

When you add his burgeoning stallion career to his racing career Frankel has to be the greatest thoroughbred in history. 

By the time Frankel retires from stud duty, provided he stays healthy, he'll have served at very least four times the number of mares as did ND.  Indeed he's already sired twice as many foals as did ND. So his opportunity as a sire far exceeds that accorded ND.


I think it's worth it to reflect on exactly what Northern Dancer achieved.

Northern Dancer's owners and breeders were Canadian, so they raced him as a 2yo in Ontario and in nearby New York.  It's not his fault that he didn't race at Royal Ascot or Longchamp.  As it was, he set a track record in the Kentucky Derby that stood until Secretariat in 1973, and has only been bettered one other time (Monarchos in 2001).  He is still, almost 60 years later, the only horse to have won both the USA's premier race for 3yos (Kentucky Derby) and Canada's premier race for 3yos (Queens Plate).  There is no telling what he could have done as an older horse as he retired after the Queens Plate with a tendon injury.

When Northern Dancer went to stud in Oshawa, Ontario, he had some very good mares, headlined by Canadian champions Wonder Where and Quill and Gr-1 winners Happy Mood and Windy Answer, but also "filler" mares like maiden winners Crock and Port of Call. Only after his first crop came out running (led by Canadian Horse of the Year Viceregal who won every major stakes race for 2yos in Canada), was he moved to the US where he saw better US and European-bred mares.  Even then, he went to the state of Maryland, not Kentucky...think of moving from the South Island to Victoria.  And in spite of the small books and limited early opportunity, he finished his career with 23% stakes winners from foals/30% stakes winners from runners, everywhere from England, Ireland, and France to the USA and Canada, on dirt and turf alike.

Most horses are lucky if they will sire one global-level breed-shaping stallion.  Northern Dancer sired seven: Nijinsky, Nureyev, Sadlers Wells, Lyphard, Danzig, Storm Bird, and Northern Taste (who, although his direct influence is smaller on the global stage than the others, reshaped the breed in Japan and set the stage for the rise to domination of Sunday Silence).  Likewise, most horses are lucky if they will sire one foundation broodmare.  Northern Dancer sired Cool Mood, Cold Reply (present in New Zealand through Van Nistelrooy), Northern Sea (dam of Southern Halo), Rose Red (present in Australia through Saxon Warrior), Victorian Heiress, Northern Meteor, and last but certainly not least the incomparable Fanfreluche.

Frankel got the best of the best broodmares from around the world from day one.  There is not a single mare in his book who would make anyone scratch their heads and think, huh? He has exactly the same number of foals in his northern hemisphere bred 1st crop (122) as Northern Dancer's first 5 crops combined.  Frankel saw more Gr-1 winners (not Gr-1 placed or Gr-1 producers, but the winners themselves) in his first book than Northern Dancer had foals.  And while he's certainly producing very well, he's getting about 14% stakes winners from foals from his crops 4 and up, which is on par to Northern Dancer's "disappointing" (as in, he only had 4 SWs out of 30 foals, including Nijinsky and Fanfreluche) second crop and well below Northern Dancer's lifetime achievements.

Frankel may someday catch up to Northern Dancer, but as SC said, he has a very long way to go and a lot of work to do to get there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2023 at 3:46pm
That is a wonderful essay KM. Where would Northern Dancer rank in the pantheon of North American racing ?

There is absolutely no question he is the greatest stallion in history. 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2023 at 4:00pm
Bloodhorse magazine have him ranked 43 for the 20th Century.


reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VSP. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2023 at 4:13pm
Does it honestly matter anyway? Everyone has differing opinions.
Why not respect Northern Dancer as a mega star, and respect Frankel as a rising mega star.
Watching the Northern Dancer influence unfold through the years has been amazing and now I'm glad Frankel is also during my lifetime, where I got to enjoy his race career, admire his stud career and hopefully get to see his legacy into the future.
Both are truly admirable and wonderful horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2023 at 5:48pm
Of course it doesn't matter, I mean at the end of the day, horse racing doesn't matter. 

reductio ad absurdum
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