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Another Stud Book Error

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brogers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Another Stud Book Error
    Posted: 01 Dec 2021 at 2:39pm
Found another stud book error using mtDNA...

Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2021 at 3:32pm
As the family has had lots of time to develop since late 1800's so it you like the family this century your still going on what that family has done in that time.   

While stud books can only do entry from what they are told by the breeders.  And back then they didn't have blood tests ect.  So maybe blaming the wrong people.
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Take2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2021 at 7:59pm
Agree with you Furious, the thing is, why the big drama? Horses have been bred to a name in a page in the studbook for years, now, with dna, some of the names might not be who they were portrayed to be, or the family numbers by Bruce Lowe, might not be correct, for all intents and purposes they have been bred to names in studbooks for 100's of years, apart from confusion to some, and perhaps opportunities for those with the wherewithal what else will the dna analyses contribute to the breed and breeding programs?
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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brogers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2021 at 2:10am
The racehorse is an athlete. It relies on its mitochondria to oxidise glucose to provide energy for the cell and respirate the cell. It is vitally important for athletic performance as the mitochondria effectively respirate muscle. 

Mitochondrial is small however. The efficient functioning of the mitochondrion relies on a network of interactions between the 37 genes in the mitochondrion and over 1,000 nuclear genes (that which you get from both parents). This mitonuclear interaction must be efficient and if there is a mismatch between the nuclear and mitochondrial genes it results in less efficient mitochondria and therefore less athletic performance.

Mitochondrial haplogroups/haplotypes are maternally inherited. Therefore, knowing where stud book errors are, and knowing the correct mitochondrial haplotype that a modern horse belongs to is important if you want to try to work out how the female line of a horse interacts with the rest of its pedigree (the mitonuclear interaction). 
Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 11:14am
getting a tad over the "studbook" for the continual inaccuracies cases in points below
PERFECT OFFERING PROGENY PEDIGREEQUERY
https://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/perfect+offering

PERFECT OFFERING INGLIS

https://inglis.com.au/sale/2021-classic-yearling-sale?tab=catalogue&selected_lot=224

PERFECT OFFERING VIA STUDBOOK
Perfect Offering (AUS) 2009
 Life Number: AUS00981961bay mareDate of Birth: 02/09/2009 
 Microchip Number: 985100010951713DNA Typed: Y 
 by Dubawi (IRE) 2001Contact: Jamieson Park Ltd, NSW 
 from Bells Will Ring (IRE) 2000 
 bred by Mr AB Thomas, Mrs RR Thomas, Qld 
Australian Breeding Record
  Printable Version
SeasonDOBColourSexName or Last
Service Date
SireComment
202316/08bcolt12/09/2022Xtravagant (NZ)samples processing
202220/09/2021* Super Seth (AUS)slipped
201804/08bfilly09/09/2017Pride Of Dubai (AUS)born in New Zealand
201701/10/2016Snitzel (AUS)missed



Edited by Take2 - 03 Dec 2023 at 11:17am
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grey Affair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 11:33am
What is the problem?

She spent time in New Zealand.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 12:04pm
Yes so many mares are back and forth its hard.  I had to do a study with putting the exact number of foal the yearling was - including dead foals which the sales companies don't include. The hard ones where those mares who skip over to NZ and back to Australia every few years.  Became very time consuming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 12:04pm
were sorry didn't check again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grey Affair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 12:33pm
The Australian Stud Book has Perfectmanz, Holymanz & Ultimate Pride listed under Perfect Offering's Named Produce.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by Grey Affair Grey Affair wrote:

What is the problem?

She spent time in New Zealand.


problem is, the records are entirely different, why do some mare who have "spent time in nz" have all their stud records available on the asb and some don't, the al manzor's dont crack it for a mention


Edited by Take2 - 03 Dec 2023 at 4:58pm
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote VSP. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 8:35pm
Because the Australian Stud Book records the records of foals produced in Australia, and recorded by their owners here in Australia.
The NZ Stud Book would have the records for the years she was in NZ.
The ones that have full records here must have returned here in time for the foals to be recorded or registered here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QuizAbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 3:31pm
You would think in this day and age that the Aus and Nz studbooks could intertwine somehow. So that all mares in both countries are upto date etc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 7:43pm
Thankfully I'm no longer breeding, but a couple of years ago my mare was served by Holler and missed, then got in foal a month later to Mezyaan.  She foaled a dead foal the following year (died as I was pulling it out we believe), yet the Studbook say they can't determine who the sire was.  Um, hello, she came up empty after the first cover and was sent to a different stallion a month later and she got in foal first time.
Not only is it frustrating for the owner of the mare and reflects an incorrect picture, it skewes the stallion's stats as well.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QuizAbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 8:40pm
Thats where the owners has to fill in the correct info. They need to say she missed to Holler. Some i think just put in served by both when the stallion returns come in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2023 at 9:18pm
I actually rang them before I did her return when the foal was born dead.  Both stallions had her on their returns from the previous year, so it was already there that she'd been served twice by 2 different stallions a month apart.  They said that that was just the way it was and had to be.  Seems ridiculous to me and tried to have it done to reflect correctly.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QuizAbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2023 at 4:08pm
Yes, both stallions will automatically have her on their books, because thy both srved her, but when you do the return, you need to put in that she missed to the first stallion, and had a dec foal by the 2nd.
You could always ring the studs who manage the stallions and tell the first one she missed, so they can ammend it on their books maybe?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 10:54am
If questions surround the identity of names of "Champions" of the breed from written accounts available in the Stud Books and similar are now being held to the utmost scrutiny, why then does the same scrutiny, seem NOT apply to the identities of DNA "donors" ( the skeletons of long dead Horses), when the same record keeping was in place as it was for stud books etc, by the SAME people, and with Animals, despite the reverence attached to many, were simply that,(Animals) and public scrutiny would not face the same legalities as it would if the subject was Human)
Is there any legal documentation as to the identity of the "donors" or is it "joe blow" said it was the champion that we buried here, or that we performed taxidermy on and stored it in the museum)? did anyone actually sign off on the alleged identity as required in Stud Books??
To what end is it all for?? to make someone the supreme possessor of all things relating to the makeup of families? and if so , again, what for? 
For a worthwhile contribution to the evolution of the breed, the application as such should be made available to Every breeder and not just the ones at the top end, with the wherewithal to use it to their advantage 
people with all this inside info and knowledge about Aleles and their purpose, have hardly made a ripple in relation to breeding/racing the perfect specimen as a result.
The answer to the age old query as to why is one Horse a dud, and the other a Champion, must lie far deeper than todays science can go, if the required Aleles, are the fuse, (so to speak)  as there would be many Horses with the required Aleles etc, what is the spark that ignites it?, how is it defined recognised and applied?? Does ignition happen at birth or before??
Perhaps JJ Vuillier with his ENGINE and MECHANISM synopsis may have been closer to the mark than credited


Edited by Take2 - 07 Jan 2024 at 11:01am
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 11:34am
Riddle me this
if "All genes have promotors, which control the genes state of expression. The promoter switches the gene on and off when they bind, or unbind, with certain molecules called regulators. Regulators can be hormones, enzymes, and other substances" (David Rosen PhD in Physics & Solid StateCity University of New York Graduate Center (Graduated 1985https://www.quora.com/How-do-switches-gets-turned-on-or-off-in-genes

begs the questions
when how and why

further from above source
"Every working gene has at least two parts. The coding part of the gene defines the shape of a certain protein. The protein is made in an organelle called a ribosome which resides in the cytoplasm. However, the ribosome won’t make the protein unless the corresponding gene is turned on by a regulator.

The proteins made by the ribosome can be itself a regulator. The protein can also be an enzyme used in the cell’s metabolism. The protein can be a pigment, a structural protein, or anything else"



Edited by Take2 - 07 Jan 2024 at 11:55am
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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