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Submarines - why? why? why? |
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31424 |
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Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 8:03pm |
I'm not a warfare expert but submarines always seem very vulnerable to me. One super sophisticated anti-submarine missile and bang goes your gazillion dollar 20 years to build submarine. Why are both major parties and our military in love with them? Australia’s Looming Submarine DisasterAlistair Popehttps://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2019/10/australias-looming-submarine-disaster/That Sinking Feeling … Submarines are no longer the Das Boot-style hunters of slow cargo ships, but are themselves the hunted, as dangerous to those who sail in them as to those they target. The anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities of advanced nations are now so good that submarines are on virtual suicide missions, the best result likely to be one kill before their own crew’s next-of-kin are notified. The statistics concerning their effectiveness on a risk-benefit analysis are not good. There were ‘happy times’ for German U-boats in the early part of World War Two until ASW defences became well organised. After that their effectiveness was limited. Germany, with the largest, most technically advanced and aggressive submarine fleet found that none of those qualities was any protection. In the last 30 months of the war they lost a staggering 616 submarines! From the beginning of 1943 until May 1945 an average of two boats went down every three days. In four of those months they were losing more than one boat a day. Australia currently has a fleet of five operational conventional submarines, though finding crews to sail them is proving challenging. How much harder will it be to find crews for twelve outdated diesel-electric boats that must regularly expose themselves while their batteries are being recharged? Just for argument’s sake, let’s posit the nuclear-powered Barracuda as the best submarine in the world (please stop laughing; we’re talking hypotheticals). But we aren’t going the nuclear route. What we are doing is asylum-quality crazy: ripping out the reactor and replacing it with an old fashioned diesel. Our alleged ‘state of the art’ submarines will have 80-year-old technology driving them at 35 per cent the underwater speed of a nuclear Barracuda. And that is but the start of the problems. This will then require new space for fuel, plus a re-balancing of the whole vessel in order to maintain underwater trim, and all the plumbing required to achieve this. All this to be achieved in 14 years? That whooshing sound you hear is the pigs flying by. Were this but another case of squandering billions of dollars on the wrong weapon, then that would be regrettable but understandable. We have seen such folly many times before. Unfortunately, at this point the situation deteriorates. Underwater Horse Cavalry … Long after cavalry had become ineffective, horsed regiments and horse-mounted cavalry continued to exist in armies. The last charge by sabre-wielding cavalry is reputed to have been in 1939, when Polish cavalry took on German tanks. It did not end well for the Poles. Bravery is no antidote to bullets. Australia is staking $200 billion of its meagre defence budget on an unproven design that can only produce an outdated weapon, the first of which will not be available (if you believe in fairy tales) for 15 years. Let’s assume the fleet of twelve all arrive by 2050, and that our enemies are sufficiently considerate to delay hostilities until then. What are the chances our boats, led by HMAS Pyne Box, will deter our enemies? These new boats will be quieter, able to dive deeper and will have new capabilities, but they will still not be able to function in tomorrow’s undersea battle space. By 2035, there will be a range of rapidly evolving autonomous submarine weapon systems, such as the recently unveiled Chinese HSU drones pictured below, that are designed to find and sink them. And find and sink them they most certainly will. What is the Future for the Submarine? In the Fifties it was recognised that the concept of wolf packs hunting freighter convoys was no longer viable. To continue to have a role, the strategy of submarine warfare changed with the introduction of nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed ballistic missile submarines designed to annihilate any country that made a nuclear first-strike on the US or its key allies. A second class of submarine also emerged with the creation of the hunter-killers designed specifically to find and destroy enemies’ submarines, including their ballistic-missile ‘big bangers’. A game of cat-and-mouse between the USSR and the US was played for decades with ever more sophisticated electronic and acoustic systems and devices introduced. Among these was a sonar array stretching from Greenland to Norway capable of detecting any Russian submarine passing through the Greenland Gap and into the North Atlantic. An American hunter-killer submarine would then be assigned to shadow it. Strategic naval planners have recognised these difficulties and proposed three solutions to permit undersea warfare to continue without incurring the level of casualties suffered in World War Two. These are: 1/ Unmanned autonomous submarines; 2/ Manned mother submarines equipped with standoff ‘smart torpedoes’ that can strike at distances of up to 60km; and 3/ Swarms of robotic mini-torpedoes and mines |
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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max manewer
Champion Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 32947 |
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Underwater Horse Cavalry … Long after cavalry had become ineffective, horsed regiments and horse-mounted cavalry continued to exist in armies. The last charge by sabre-wielding cavalry is reputed to have been in 1939, when Polish cavalry took on German tanks. Not so, cavalry units were employed by the Red Army throughout the war. "At dawn on August 28, 1941, Col. Lev Dovator led a cavalry group of three thousand sabers (accompanied by medium and light machine guns but no artillery or armor) in a mounted attack which, broke through the 450th German Infantry Regiment." This bloke may be in expert in submarine warfare, but I doubt it. |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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So who is responsible for this ?
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reductio ad absurdum
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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Dangerous things in summer if they break down ... Some have got out to give a push with bad results .... and stinkin hot with no AC working .
Letting in some air doesn't work either. |
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max manewer
Champion Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 32947 |
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Three-quarters of the German submariners died in WW2, not really a big future in it. Not sure how they kept getting recruits, you'd rather be off to Stalingrad !
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max manewer
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Not as bad as Luftwaffe fighter plane pilots, 21000 dead out of 22000. Tough boss, Hitler,
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max manewer
Champion Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 32947 |
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Defence procurement has been a super-expensive shambles in Australia for decades, they know how to waste vast sums of money.
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Mr Prospector
Champion Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Status: Offline Points: 2025 |
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When the Government made the announcement and selected the French nuclear designed option , I immediately thought Collins Class on steroids .
It would have to be a totally bizarre selection looking from the outside i.e. let's select an unsuitable nuclear option and then redesign it ???? . The other thought that crossed my mind , is maybe the Government is trying to sneak in a Nuclear option in the via the French Doors .
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There are three types of lies - Lies ,Damn Lies and Statistics
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31424 |
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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Baghdad Bob
Champion Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 13676 |
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Blame all that wasted money on that pipsqueak Christopher Pyne.
SC bags the depth of the Coalition of today, however they can only be better, thankfully, with Pyne retired. He has been replaced in the seat of Sturt by James Stevens, an unknown to me, but anyone would be better than Pyne.
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Second Chance
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Cheers Bob.
Identified the pretender three years ago, thanks goodness he's gone. |
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31424 |
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Hard to know what to make of all this. Why are nuclear subs an option now and not when were chose the French mongrel subs? Did the US change their minds on selling them to us or did we never ask them before now? Sheridan says that the contract with the French is in fact a series of contracts with get out options in all of them. So we didn't break a contract but merely choose not to take up the option of proceeding with the next stage. If so that makes the French hysterics look, ah, hysterical. Fact check?
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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Passing Through
Champion Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Location: At home Status: Offline Points: 79532 |
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My memory of the time is that when Abbott was putting up the options, nuclear was on the table but there was ultimately no political appetite to go forward with it.
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Passing Through
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On the viability and who knew what and when....
Scott Morrison warns France to meet multi-billion-dollar submarine deal deadlineBy defence correspondent Andrew Greene Posted , updated |
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Passing Through
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Australia yesterday announcing a deal to lease American submarines to fill the gap till we have new ones built it suggests negotiations around this have been going on for some time, and Australia didn't have much faith in France's ability to get it together by September.
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31424 |
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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Passing Through
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Abbott always wanted nuclear but couldn't get support from within his own party. Turnbull was never going to buy nuclear powered and went for the conventional option.
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Tlazolteotl
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There’s a silver lining for France in the US-Australia submarine dealAs bad as losing the contract is for Paris, it’s worse for Beijing. https://www.politico.eu/article/silver-lining-for-france-in-us-australia-submarine-deal/ It’s important, therefore, that Paris do what it can to move on as quickly as possible. The financial untangling is easy: Provisions were made in the bilateral agreement signed in 2019, with the newlyweds already anticipating a potential divorce. ... There’s also a silver lining to this dark cloud. Given Paris’ worries about Beijing’s influence in the region, the government can take comfort in the fact that China is the other big loser in Canberra’s decision. The regime in Beijing isn’t just worried about the increase in Australia’s military capabilities; it’s also concerned about the precedent the deal creates for other countries that would one day also like to acquire nuclear-powered submarines, such as Canada, Japan or South Korea. For China, the pact between Washington, Canberra and London is the realization of a long-standing fear: the multilateralization of American alliances in the region. Today, it’s Australia and the United Kingdom. Tomorrow, maybe Japan will join. France might be bearing the cost of the deal, but it should nonetheless be happy about one thing: China’s argument that the U.S. is losing credibility with its allies has just been contradicted in the Indo-Pacific. |
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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Hello Sunshine
Champion Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Status: Offline Points: 4174 |
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It doesnt worry you that China is submarining in our back yard powered by nuclear?
Turbull is conflicted, dirty diesel or nuclear? Is Europe more pissed because Aus is arming itself and continuing to pal up with America? Would Europe come to our aid if/when stuff happens in our backyard? As Europe is a big trade partner of Chinas is that the problem? And now China is saying Aus has made itself a nuclear target. Doesnt matter that china uses the same power source. Is this more a diplomatic problem?
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Hello Sunshine
Champion Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Status: Offline Points: 4174 |
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China and Europe are having a dummy spit.
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Baghdad Bob
Champion Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 13676 |
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These nuclear powered submarines do not have to resurface to recharge and therefore can stay under water much longer than the French diesel powered version and they do not need to be "recharged " for years, not as that fool Adam Bandt, the only Greens member of the House of Representatives, suggested, " Australia would need nuclear reactors in Australian ports to "recharge" the submarines". When they need to be "recharged " surely the can go back to the USA where they have plenty of reactors.
Australia's only nuclear reactor is in Lucas Heights in Sydney and it produces isotopes for medical imaging and treatment and provides about 85% of the nuclear medicine in Australian hospitals and if Adam Bandt had his way he would close that wonderful facility down. |
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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France has been saved in two world wars by the very people , they now turn on .
Surely the west has to prepare for what appears inevitable with China's aggressive stance. We were caught with our pants down on previous occasions . |
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Baghdad Bob
Champion Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 13676 |
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The French have got the hide of an elephant. Here they are spitting the dummy because Australia has opted for nuclear powered submarines and not the French diesel powered version, yet I can recall back in the 1960s to the 1990s France conducted nuclear testing at the Mururoa Atoll in the Pacific Ocean. They cared not for Australia back then,now they bleed over Australia cancelling a dumb deal, without even acknowledging all those Australians, who fought and died on the Western Front in WW1, defending France from the invading Huns.
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Passing Through
Champion Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Location: At home Status: Offline Points: 79532 |
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What about when the Poms stole Sydney Cove from La Perouse? I think they are still pissed off over that.
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Baghdad Bob
Champion Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 13676 |
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PT, not entirely true. Arthur Phillip, with his First Fleet of convicts, beat La Perouse into Botany Bay by a few days and from all accounts the French did not have orders from Louis XV1 to claim Terra Australis for France but only to navigate the Pacific Ocean. So the French, in refection today, maybe pissed off, but at that time they were not.
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Baghdad Bob
Champion Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 13676 |
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Well Kevin Rudd has his 5 Bob each way on the Australian purchase of nuclear subs.
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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Personally, I think Rudd was outstanding in that piece. It is a shame he was such a hot head when in charge.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Passing Through
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Pretty reasonable questions I would think.
The ''strategic nakedness'' question has been addressed with the announcement we are leasing US subs till the new ones come online. Still be nice to know just we are signing up for though, what it will cost and what our exposure is in an actual conflict.
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oneonesit
Champion Joined: 06 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 37181 |
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Do they still have periscopes in these hi-tech boats ?
And if so - does someone still shout out "up periscope" & "down periscope"
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