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Australia's Whip Rules |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 6:14pm |
How dumb am I, the red on the rail is the indication isn't it ? I change my mind within 60 seconds.
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Wonder how the jockeys know when they hit the 100m mark at Oakbank ? The winning jockey hit his mount about 30 times but as far as I can tell it would not have been very many before the 200 mark, I would GUESS, from the 150 he has just gone slather and whack to the line. I have no major issue with the Stewards decision simply because I can not clearly see where the 100 is.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17413 |
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Ended up dismissed
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Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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So a jockey protest rather than one from stewards?
Be embarrassing for the stewards if he has a case which they didn't identify during the event.
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17413 |
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Protest Oakbank Race 4 - 2nd Tullaghan (D Tourneur) vs 1st Alpine Beau (S Payne) - Alleged Excessive Use of Whip
Current Placings 4 2 1 7
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Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Where were you going with this ? Sounds interesting but not sure what it is about.
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reductio ad absurdum
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acacia alba
Champion Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41536 |
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There,s rules, and then there,s rules. These whip ones need to be sorted better. Its a joke.
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animals before people.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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However it would appear that despite those two suspensions he can still ride in a couple of million dollar races next Saturday. Go figure.
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17413 |
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Update
Race 6- Blake Shinn has pleaded guilty to overuse of the whip. 7 strikes prior to the 100m and 16 strikes in total. Suspended 7 meetings and issued a $20,000 fine. Shinn was issued an 8 meeting suspension Thurs. Shinn will now return to riding on 2 Decembe
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Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing
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Take2
Champion Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5333 |
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Good riders of the day, were taken off Horses like Nearctic- Northern Dancer- and nearly every horse raced by E P Taylor- etc etc, especially by Windfields longtime Trainer Legendary Pete McCann, who incidently rode most of the horses He trained for EP in work well into his 80's
Edited by Take2 - 10 Nov 2023 at 5:13pm |
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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol
www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au |
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acacia alba
Champion Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41536 |
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Have held many stipendiary stewards in the lowest regard for decades,
and here's another reason to suggest they're appalling administrators.
Two jockeys are fined and suspended for flouting the whip rules today,
but wait for it, their suspensions don't start until after next
Saturday's Spring finale which boasts $1.5m and $1m races!
Neither
are formally booked for rides on that day, and their suspensions should
surely start immediately, ruling them out of the meeting next Saturday.
The jocks would be silently laughing their heads off. A damn disgrace and a pox on the stewards who granted the jockeys such leeway. Thats what had me puzzled . Why are they allowed to ride over the big days when they should be sidelined right away ? Whats the point of them being "punished" if they still get to ride in the big races for big dollars, when they have obviously done wrong. Zahra for starters . Big noting himself with the loud wife, when he should be sitting on the side lines. Whats $500 to him fiddlesticks ! You are right, SC. Disgraceful.
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animals before people.
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52012 |
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I & doubtless many others, couldn't agree more Pathetic ruling & certainly no meaningful deterrent
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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Make that the suspensions should start "immediately after they've fulfilled rides they're already been formally booked for".
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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Have held many stipendiary stewards in the lowest regard for decades, and here's another reason to suggest they're appalling administrators. Two jockeys are fined and suspended for flouting the whip rules today, but wait for it, their suspensions don't start until after next Saturday's Spring finale which boasts $1.5m and $1m races!
Neither are formally booked for rides on that day, and their suspensions should surely start immediately, ruling them out of the meeting next Saturday. The jocks would be silently laughing their heads off. A damn disgrace and a pox on the stewards who granted the jockeys such leeway. --------------- Star jockeys Blake Shinn and Billy Egan, who have both had success at the Flemington carnival, have both been found guilty by Racing Victoria stewards of whip breaches. Shinn and Egan were both found guilty of overuse of the whip in the third race. Shinn rode the winner Little Mix and was found guilty of using the whip 10 times prior to the 100 metres and 15 strikes in total. Shinn was suspended for eight meetings and fined $2000. His penalty will begin on Sunday, November 19 and he will resume riding on Sunday, November 26. Egan was found to have used the whip on 17 occasions on his ride on runner-up Rebadge. Racing Victoria stewards said he struck him nine times before the 100 metres, which is four above his quota. He was fined $750 and suspended for nine meetings. His suspension begins on Sunday, November 19 and he will resume riding on Monday, November 27. |
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52012 |
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Generally they take the rides they've been declared for as it penalises connections otherwise. This is Vic., I don't know about NSW but in Q/land I think they ride indefinitely, if they appeal, untill it's been deliberated on; some have lingered for weeks & occasionally months up there but, they do tend to be a law unto heir own
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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acacia alba
Champion Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41536 |
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So are they allowed to pick when they start their suspensions ? I get a bit confused when they say "jock whoever " copped 10 meetings but wont start until after such and such a race ? Or are they just out on the spot ? I guess if you win a big race and then get outed for 2 weeks its a good old holiday.
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animals before people.
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52012 |
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If it ever was a joke, it's way past that now, at least in Vic. Only 2 weeks ago, Zahra offended in the Caulfield Cup.
Melbourne's leading jockey, Damian Lane, won't be in action on Champions Stakes Day on Saturday after receiving a suspension for breaching the whip rules at Flemington on Tuesday. Lane guided Warmonger to a narrow win over Queen Of Dragons in the Listed TAB Trophy but in doing so, used the whip 10 times prior to the 100-metre mark,[someone asked the other day] twice the permitted level and 16 times overall. The Cox Plate-winning jockey pleaded guilty to the charge laid by Racing Victoria stewards, who issued him a 10-meeting suspension and a $2000 fine. Lane will begin his suspension on Friday, November 10 and is permitted to return to race riding on Sunday, November 19. In assessing his penalty, the stewards did take into account Lane's good record when it came to whip usage. The suspension adds to an already frustrating Cup Week for Lane, who received severe interference when he rode boom mare Amelia's Jewel in the Golden Eagle at Rosehill last Saturday and was lucky to remain in the saddle on her. The Western Australia-born rider wasn't the only jockey to receive a penalty for a breach of the whip rules at Flemington on Melbourne Cup Day. Cup-winning hoop Mark Zahra was penalised for his ride in the TAB Trophy on Aztec State. He was fined $500 for striking his mount nine times before the 100m but then didn't strike him in the last 100m. Craig Newitt was suspended for overuse of the whip for his ride on Platinum Wolf in the MSS Security Subzero Handicap. He struck Platinum Wolf 10 times prior to the 100m, which is also five times above the limit, and 16 in total. He was suspended for 10 meetings and fined $500. |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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rusty nails
Champion Joined: 20 Mar 2013 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 11400 |
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What’s the argument against no whips?
If no one can, it’s a level playing field.
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52012 |
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I came across this whilst searching for something totally unrelated but, as it's written by & for vets, feel their viewpoint may be of interest to some
Vet ethics: A quick whip around the racecourse
On By admin
Melbourne’s Spring racing has again raised the question of the use of whips as performance aids in thoroughbreds. Jockey Zac Purton was fined $3000 over his “excessive” whipping of Caulfield Cup winner Admire Rakti. For the same ride, Purton collected $87,500 prize money. Let’s begin an ethical investigation of this issue by imagining the following scenario. Suppose we are hosting an overseas visitor who is unfamiliar with horse racing – let’s call her “Maree”. Maree enjoys the atmosphere of the Caulfield Cup and the athleticism of the horses. However, it becomes evident that she is rather shocked by something we ourselves barely noticed – namely, the sight of horses like Admire Rakti being whipped as they head hard for home. On the train home she bursts with questions. Does the whip hurt the
horses? Isn’t causing pain the whole point of such furious physical
contact? Does it really make them run faster? We may feel that Maree deserves an answer. But how and on what basis should we respond to her? Former jockey Danny Brereton wrote in the Herald-Sun that whipping
horses is, regrettably, part of a macho tradition in Australian horse
racing, one that is unworthy of genuine horsemanship. Whips, Brereton
wrote, should be used only for safety and not for performance
enhancement. We should, on this view, follow the path of Norway which The Australian Racing Board, however, argues that the changes it introduced in 2009 adequately protect horses from whipping which carried out for the purposes of “encouragement”. ARB rule 137A mandates the use of whips with padded ends and forbids striking the horse around the head and abdomen; striking on consecutive strides; and striking with an arm raised above shoulder height. The rule further bans whipping the horses more than five times in a “forehand fashion” before the last 100 metres. There are no limits to the number of strikes permitted in a “backhand” motion nor of strikes in the last 100 metres of the race. However, the ARB contends that whipping under these rules does not cause the horses pain or injury. Suppose we look next to the AVA for moral guidance as we attempt to answer Maree. The AVA’s policy on whipping states that “excessive or incorrect use of a whip on any horse” is not condoned. It says that the whip “functions as a training aid by being a tool for negative reinforcement”. Citing peer-reviewed research by Evans and McGreevy, the AVA policy questions the claim that whipping increases a horse’s competitiveness. That 2011 study found that “increased whip use was not associated with significant variation in velocity as a predictor of superior placing at the finish”. Can we use the AVA policy to answer our overseas visitor’s question about the ethics of whipping? Unfortunately we cannot. For while it suggests that whip use may be unnecessary (and therefore perhaps cruel), the policy conclusion is simply that “there should be additional research into the use of whips in horse racing”. Moreover, the policy does not tell us what “excessive” whip use means. Does it accord with the ARB’s definition of excessive, or is it at variance with that stipulation? What we really want to know is what kind of performance whipping is reasonable, or whether it is simply unreasonable. Consider the claim that the whip is a tool of “negative reinforcement”. According to behavioural theory, it is more accurate to call such whip use “punishment”. A punishment is a stimulus that is usually aversive and that functions to decrease a behaviour. When we observe, for example, the whipping of horses pulling carriages or of donkeys as beasts of burden we are seeing the administration of an aversive punishment which decreases the tendency of the animal to slow down or stop. A 2012 study by McGreevy et. al. may shed more light. Using high speed footage taken of races, the study found, contrary to the findings of the Stewards,
As the authors conclude, the “results call into question the ability of Stewards to effectively police the rules concerning whip use and, more importantly, challenge the notion that padding the distal section of whips completely safeguards horses from any possible whip-related pain”. The Stewards, in other words, simply lack the technology and ability to ensure the rules are abided by. Jurists tell us that laws which cannot be enforced are bad laws. Furthermore, the Stewards are unable to police degrees of intensity of impact. As long as they remain within the above rules, jockeys can strike horses anywhere along a spectrum that runs from light impacts to very forceful ones. But supposing, counterfactually, that the Stewards do have the ability to reliably enforce a range of rules limiting strikes, would that assuage Maree’s concerns? The above study shows that the whip makes a substantial indentation in the horse’s body. The authors consider this grounds for saying that it hurts the horses, not least because we already know that a horse’s skin is highly sensitive, as can be observed when flies alight upon it. In addition, the unpleasantness of the pain and/or fear felt by the
thoroughbreds is presumably exacerbated by the fatigue the horses are
undergoing in the final stages of the race, and also by the permission
granted by the Australian Racing Board for unrestricted backhand whips
and discretionary strikes in the last 100 metres. Send your responses to editor@vetmag.com.au SIMON COGHLAN has a PhD in philosophy. His doctorate addressed human and animal ethics and he has published in this field in peer-reviewed journals. He has a Masters in Bioethics and a Grad. Cert. in Higher Education. Currently he lectures at the Australian Catholic University. He is also a Melbourne veterinarian. |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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TJMitchell
Champion Joined: 29 Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 16917 |
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18 days ban, £1000 fine, no @CheltenhamRaces and a day at racing school for training for a lad using a foam padded whip on a horse 2 times over the limit. Welcome to the dictatorship @BHAHorseracing. Disgraceful. NO WELFARE ISSUE. - Matt Chapman |
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Time is a flat circle
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Rhino
Champion Joined: 21 Nov 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1857 |
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Have watched a little bit of dirt racing in Japan lately. Some horses are belted from pillar to post a long way from home.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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"Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore: No set number, officials use discretion to determine whether whip use was improper, excessive, unnecessary or inappropriate"
What a mare's nest!
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52012 |
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WORLDWIDE WHIP RULES Germany: Jockeys are limited to no more than three strikes during the entire race. If a horse is contacted by the whip with the jockey's hands on the reins, it is still classed as a strike. France: Jockeys are limited to no more than five strikes during the entire race. Britain: Jockeys are limited to no more than six strikes during the entire race on the flat, seven strikes for jumps races. Ireland: Jockeys are limited to no more than eight strikes during the entire race. Australia: Five non-consecutive strikes before the 100-metre mark, unlimited thereafter, with stewards' discretion also applicable to determine whether totality of whip use was appropriate. South Africa: Jockeys are limited to no more than 12 strikes during the entire race. Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore: No set number, officials use discretion to determine whether whip use was improper, excessive, unnecessary or inappropriate. Norway and Sweden: Whip use for encouragement has been banned in Norway since 1982, while Sweden followed suit in April 2022. United States of America: There are no uniform rules across the country. The whip is banned for encouragement in New Jersey but six strikes per race are permitted in California, while many other states adjudicate on a discretionary basis. |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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oneonesit
Champion Joined: 06 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 37210 |
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Agree with that Rhino
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Refer ALP Election Promises
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Rhino
Champion Joined: 21 Nov 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1857 |
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Just such a grey area. Not as simple as break the rules and get DQ'd. Do we really think there would be too much wrong with biting the bullet and banning all together?
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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Down from 5 strokes to 3 with specified penalties for jockeys, but no automatic disqualification of any horse involved. Don't know about relegations.
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oneonesit
Champion Joined: 06 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 37210 |
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Refer ALP Election Promises
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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You could well be right about cherry picking etc oneonesit. We don't really know, though it's been suggested that a vis-a-vis female jockey may have transgressed the rules in an earlier race where her mount won by just 0.2 lengths.
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oneonesit
Champion Joined: 06 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 37210 |
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And why does it seem to be restricted to horses in a finish ? Isn't this whole thing an animal welfare initiative - so whether it occurs on a horse that is last, midfield or first action needs to be taken surely - as the impact on the horse is the same.
Seems to be a bit of cherry picking going on
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oneonesit
Champion Joined: 06 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 37210 |
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Well will they be confined to dead-heat results SC ?
Pretty fair question Is it standard practice for Stewards to count the number of strikes for every jockey in every race ? Maybe it needs to be published in the Stewards Reports like other racing incidents - regardless of where a horse finishes ?
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