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Bred To Stay |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Gold Coast race 1
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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Wonder why she missed the whole of her classic season ?
She is debuting today in Perth over 1000m as a late season 3yo. Falsetto is a 3/4 sister to the wonderful Tristanagh who cut a swathe through the spring of 89.
Edited by djebel - 14 May 2020 at 4:43pm |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Online Points: 45806 |
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Maybe slow to mature (many Tavistock's take forever) or perhaps a physical problem. Has had a change of trainer too.
Just a bit concerned she's bred to go not 2400m but rather 4800m at Warrnambool, however she must've shown some speed to be debuting over 1000m.
Eagerly await the outcome. |
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djebel
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Barely tested.
She will be winning races.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Shrunk in the Wash
Champion Joined: 25 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 9890 |
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Not disagreeing as I have limited knowledge in this area but why do you say this?
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Online Points: 45806 |
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Because the 3yo is relentlessly staying bred, and for the most part that simply doesn't work in Oz in the absence of some genuine speed influences.
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Shrunk in the Wash
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they look more like 2000m horses to me, aside from Sadlers Wells
It’s dam falsetto never won beyond 2100m It’s sirenZabeel was a miler as was his dam, lady Gissele TGrand dam was by Try my Best who was a sprinter Quest for Fame on the stallions side was a mile & a half at the most |
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djebel
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And Tavistock was a stayer that sprinted.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
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Thanks for an earlier and clearly disingenuous post Shrunk. It does you no favors.
That aside, opinions are like...and proof of the pudding will ultimately be in the eating.
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Shrunk in the Wash
Champion Joined: 25 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 9890 |
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sorry you took it that way. It wasn’t intended 🥴
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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Had his 5th start today.
Been out to 1400m just once in his career.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Online Points: 45806 |
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Am sure djebel meant 25th start.
And yes, quite inexplicable.
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Lord Hybrow
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To be honest, I can understand why connections have kept him to sprint trips. Hes been super consistent in that 1000-1200 range, picking up cheque’s nearly every start. Tony Noonan is a good enough trainer to know if & when to step him out in trip.
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djebel
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Nice win at Kembla just now
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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IN the first race at Launceston tonight....... 1120m unf**kingbelievable
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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He trialled like a big long lopping stayer as well.
Obviously the trial encouraged them to run him over the short trip. #Australasianism throguh and through. Good site this https://tasracing.com.au/
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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The dominance of internationally bred runners in Saturday's G1 Cox Plate stings that little bit more for local breeders when you realise the sires of the first four home all shuttled to Australia at one point. Cover image courtesy of Coolmore Ireland An unprecedented sweep by internationally bred horses of the top four places in Saturday's race highlighted the enormous challenges faced in trying to resurrect the reputation of the Australian-bred middle distance and staying thoroughbred. The trend towards European-bred domination of Australia's best staying races such as the G1 Melbourne Cup, has been evident for much of this century, but there was always a sense that when it came to Australia's premier middle distance events, such as the Cox Plate, the locals could still hold their own. Winx's (Street Cry {Ire}) incredible four-year Cox Plate reign has perhaps masked the trend towards international dominance of the Moonee Valley feature, with the wins of Adelaide (Ire) and Lys Gracieux (Jpn) (Heart's Cry {Jpn}) bookending those quartet of successes. Saturday's result, headed by winner Sir Dragonet (Ire) (Camelot {GB}), swept away any notion that this race has withstood the influence of the internationalisation of Australian racing. What is significant is that the first four horses home were all by stallions that at one point stood in Australia. Camelot, who shuttled to Coolmore for one season in 2014, was not only represented by Sir Dragonet, but also third-placed Russian Camelot (Ire), while Galileo (Ire), the sire of second-placed Armory (Ire), spent five seasons in Australia at the start of the century, and Henrythenavigator (Ire), the sire of fourth-placed Mugatoo (Ire), also shuttled to Coolmore Australia for four seasons from 2009-2012. In other words, the quality of stallions which produced those first four horses was available to Australian breeders, and due to several reasons, mainly commercial, those stallions did not have extended stays in Australia. The success of Camelot's progeny in the Northern Hemisphere - he now has 33 stakes winners including six Group 1 winners - indicates that Australian breeders probably missed a huge opportunity. "The success of Camelot's progeny in the Northern Hemisphere - he now has 33 stakes winners including six Group 1 winners - indicates that Australian breeders probably missed a huge opportunity. " Leading bloodstock agent James Bester, who works with Coolmore as a consultant, said that at the very least, Camelot was misunderstood by the Australian breeders and market when the son of Montjeu (Ire) stood at Jerrys Plains for one season for $22,000 (inc GST) in 2014. "Obviously, he wasn't fully appreciated. I suppose there was a question of that late-season 2-year-old and then Guineas and Derby winner's profile that for some reason or another, appeals less to the Australian breeding angle and then, also, the yearling sale market," he told TDN AusNZ. "He battled to attract the right quality and quantity of mares in his first season here at stud, and that impacted on the yearling sale returns, which nobody was writing home about so it became clear that it wasn't commercially viable to keep sending him out. That has been a great loss to the Australian breeding industry." Of Camelot's 33 yearlings sold through the Australian yearling sales in 2017 averaged $90,258, with a median of $60,000, which while they are respectable results for a first-season stallion, were not compelling commercially for Coolmore to bring him back at that stage. That lone Australian crop, who recently turned five, have hardly set the world on fire, with 47 winners from 65 runners. The list includes two stakes winners, Lord Arthur, a Group 2 winner in New Zealand, and Crown Towers, a Listed winner in South Africa. From a genetic point of view, Camelot should have worked in Australia. His nicking stats with leading broodmare sires now indicate a strong compatibility with mares by Danehill (USA), and his two globally influential sons Fastnet Rock and Exceed And Excel. Did Camelots get their chance?Bester wonders if the Australian-bred progeny of Camelot were suited to the training environments they were asked to grow up in. "Do those types of horses appreciate our system of being pushed early to get 2-year-old results, I don’t know, but it seems to me that maybe our training and racing pattern doesn't always suit these horses," he said. "It seems to me that maybe our training and racing pattern doesn't always suit these horses." - James Bester The success of Group 1 winner Russian Camelot, who was purchased as a yearling out of England and brought to Australia, is a tribute to the approach his trainer Danny O'Brien took with him, according to Bester. "The Danny O'Brien system is more of a European style system, being at a private training facility, with a few added extras, like beaches and things like that thrown in. Whether taking the 'Australian Camelots' to the racetrack and spinning them around and galloping up twice a week suited them is a question. Maybe it didn't," he said. "It’s also possible that maybe right from the start, with a lack of appreciation, he didn’t get the best types of mares and he wasn't being bought by the best stables at the sales, maybe that played a part." Can't argue with the marketIn that regard, Bester said the market is very much rigged against those breeders who opt to support shuttle stallions with a middle-distance or staying profile. "That nature of the Australian market, where we are all looking for that 2-year-old, 3-year-old sprinting type, means breeders are not getting rewarded for actually producing those staying horses," he said. "There is no demand or appreciation for those type of horses. "I understand that because I myself as an agent or buyer am reluctant to wait three or four years for the horse I buy to hit his straps and start paying us back." Another consideration is the structure of the European, English and Irish systems, which is much better suited to the patient approach needed to properly develop these horses. "Europe has so many owner-breeders, and the likes of Coolmore and Godolphin, where these types of horses can thrive, there is no lack of patience and no rush for a quick return. You look at those great breeding operations such as the Aga Khan, they nurture these horses and get their rewards," Bester said. "It’s all very well to say that Australia should be breeding this type of horse. But you try and go to the yearling sales with one and you'll come back with your tail between your legs. "Or you try buying a few of those and wait until they are 4-year-olds, at $50,000 a year in training fees!" Shopping globallyThe lack of quality staying-bred horses being bred and offered in Australia leaves those who do want to source horses for races like the major Cups and Cox Plate to the European tried horse market. Saturday's winner Sir Dragonet was purchased privately, as was fourth-placed Mugatoo. O'Brien was somewhat of a pioneer in sourcing Russian Camelot through the yearling sales, and that has become an increasingly popular strategy over the past 12 months. The hope from Bester, in terms of changing the future prospects for Australian-bred horses in some of our biggest races, lies in the market for these European-bred horses becoming too hot, leading to a change in strategy from buyers. "I think there will be a slow shift due to those European horses becoming too high-priced and that the commercial considerations will tip slightly in favour of our locally bred stayers," he said. "I think there will be a slow shift due to those European horses becoming too high-priced and that the commercial considerations will tip slightly in favour of our locally bred stayers." - James Bester "What you have is horses that cost a lot of money to buy, or if they are Aidan O'Brien horses, are basically unbuyable anyway. We have to have horses like Camelot standing here if we are ever going to compete. Hopefully, it will start to gain traction, the idea that you can't just rely on going overseas to buy them." Proving a stallionIt is highly unlikely that Coolmore would bring Camelot, currently building a fantastic record as a stallion in Ireland, back to Australia seven years after he last visited. But Bester does believe he would get the right mares and the right commercial support in the armlet, should that happen. "Once the market approves of these stallions, it can work. A horse like Savabeel in New Zealand is a great example. He proved that once everybody knows what you are going to get, and you are going to get those Guineas, Oaks and Derby horses, then there is a yearling market for those," he said. The problem Bester sees is that it is simply not commercially viable to keep shuttling a horse to Australia when the market does not have a proper understanding of his potential. "You have got a long time off the market waiting to see, and that's the hard bit, waiting for that lag time," he said. "With shuttle stallions, it costs a lot of money and effort to get them here. It isn't like just bringing a horse in from the paddock and standing him for the season and putting him back out to the paddock again for another six months. You have to balance the time and effort and indeed the money it costs to bring them here, with their acceptance in the market and your likely returns. "I wish I had the answer for it, because we are losing out on world leading horses of the highest quality, with these Classic producing horses like Camelot." |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Foxseal
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Race 1 at Stawell today sees a horse called Silicon Valley making his debut over 1600m.
By Americain out of a Monsun mare - bred by the Bamford family.
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djebel
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Been scratched at least once including over 1700m.
I imagine he is at least fit. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Foxseal
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Lady Nelson - Race 1 at Sale today
She’s by Shocking (Melb Cup 3200m winner) out of Prized Lady (dual Auckland Cup 3200m winner). Full sister to Dragon Storm (NZ Cup winner 3200m).
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Freefall
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This thread's been a bit quiet?
Looks like I'm about to take a small share in a filly my mate bred that is currently at Swettenham Stud. By a sire I really didn't know much about (Ribchester) out of Endaxi (Authorised/Too Darn Hot). Any comments on the cross appreciated.
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Gay3
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Looks super to me with Ribchester & Authorized sharing many 'goodies'. I always love several dups of Lalun & who could go wrong racing a descendent of the fabulous Noble Bijou/Mellay cross?
I've heard Nureyevs can be a bit fragile & as Ribchester has a double cross, wonder if this may've had to do with him not really fullfilling his potential or rather, the promise I thought he showed |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Second Chance
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Nice pedigree imo.
Ribchester didn't show his best until 4, and say no more about Endaxi's stout female line. So don't hold too many hopes of peak performance until 4 also, and will hopefully be placed with a patient trainer. |
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Freefall
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Thanks Gay and Second Chance.
Breeder is keeping a majority share and is VERY patient. We raced the grand dam back in the 90’s and from memory she didn’t race until her 3 year old year. Another mate of ours Guy Walter trained her and she didn’t break her maiden until she got to 2000m. All Mudgee boys. She went on to win 6, 4 in town and a listed 2400m race beating Heart Ruler. Too Darn Hot was also the dam of Niwot.
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Freefall
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At the other end of the spectrum I’m already in a colt syndicated by Proven Thoroughbreds (Jamie Walter) Guy’s brother.
By Pierro out of Ashleigh. The Pierro’s take time as well - hope I live long enough Some nice photos/videos on their website.
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djebel
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So glad she is a filly. Stunning pedigree. Ribchester was top class from 2 to 4. She could be anything.
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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Freefall
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Thanks Djebel,
I was going to ask you to put up the detailed pedigree but didn't want to impose He has a knack of using sires who are in their first or second season and has got some value doing that. All of his horses have been from the Too Darn Hot female line and from memory he has used Galileo, Authorised, Poet's Voice, Highland Reel and probably another couple I've forgotten.
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Benalla tomorrow race 2 1200m of course.........
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reductio ad absurdum
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