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Fiorente At Stud

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kavg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 3:19pm
Also it would be easy to put it to the test although too early as you'd have to give it another 2 years when his 1st and 2nd crops have fully matured and 3rd crop are 3yo's. 

There are quite a few sires who carry Bahram such as At Talaq, Kalaglow, Anabaa and Noble Bijou. Just a matter of seeing how many of the dams carried one of these in their pedigrees and in turn seeing how many of them are winners, stakeswinners etc.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

What do you mean Gay?


There aren't many races longer than a mile up Townsville way.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything, it's too late to stop reading it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 3:47pm

Either Phil or Jamie (??) interviewed y/day said his book's now full & yes, he fee will increase next year so well done to all who got the great deals this year Clap
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything, it's too late to stop reading it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 4:01pm
And good luck to Sun Stud.  They very much need a new headliner with Bel Esprit aging and Magnus proving upper level bread and butter, so let's hope it's this fellow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:47pm
Will serve 150 mares this season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Originally posted by HH88 HH88 wrote:

Early days but is there a sex balanced line-breeding trend emerging with his winners to date?
Dams carrying daughters of Bahram figure in 6 of his 9 winners i.e.
Stars of Carrum
Alessandro
Mangione
Moor Gait
Lord Gladstone
Continuation
In 5 of the 6 the daughter of Bahram comes through Summertime, the other (Alessandro) comes through Galileo.
Star of Carrum's pedigree is perhaps additionally reinforced by including a sex balanced line of Bahram's son Persian Gulf.
Also of interest the sire of Summertime, Precipitation is a half brother to Persian Gulf.
Two of the remaining 3 (Hawkshot and Fariha) are out of mares by Encosta De Lago.


Spensierato (by Fiorente), winner at Pakenham yesterday, has a 7m x 8f of Bahram


Little Phoenix (C Waller) - through Big Game 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Originally posted by HH88 HH88 wrote:

Early days but is there a sex balanced line-breeding trend emerging with his winners to date?
Dams carrying daughters of Bahram figure in 6 of his 9 winners i.e.
Stars of Carrum
Alessandro
Mangione
Moor Gait
Lord Gladstone
Continuation
In 5 of the 6 the daughter of Bahram comes through Summertime, the other (Alessandro) comes through Galileo.
Star of Carrum's pedigree is perhaps additionally reinforced by including a sex balanced line of Bahram's son Persian Gulf.
Also of interest the sire of Summertime, Precipitation is a half brother to Persian Gulf.
Two of the remaining 3 (Hawkshot and Fariha) are out of mares by Encosta De Lago.


Spensierato (by Fiorente), winner at Pakenham yesterday, has a 7m x 8f of Bahram


Little Phoenix (C Waller) - through Big Game 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HH88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 1:55pm
What is the name of the dam?
HH88
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 4:05pm
Looks a perfect horse for the new ballot free race.

MANNZA (AUS)Chestnut colt 2015 
Fiorente
Brown 2008
Monsun
Bay or brown 1990
Konigsstuhl
Brown 1976
Dschingis Khan
Brown 1961
Tamerlane
Donna Diana
1952
1956
1-e
6-e
Konigskronung
Brown 1965
Tiepoletto
Kronung
1956
1957
2-c
5-h
Mosella
Bay 1985
Surumu
Chestnut 1974
Literat
Surama
1965
1970
7-b
19>
Monasia
Bay 1979
Authi
Monacensia
1970
1969
14-b
8-a
Desert Bloom
Bay 2000
Pilsudski
Bay 1992
Polish Precedent
Bay 1986
Danzig
Past Example
1977
1976
7-a
8-h
Cocotte
Bay 1983
Troy
Gay Milly
1976
1977
1-b
11>
Desert Beauty
Bay 1994
Green Desert
Bay 1983
Danzig
Foreign Courier
1977
1979
7-a
A4
Hellenic
Bay 1987
Darshaan
Grecian Sea
1981
1978
13-c
5-h
Rue de l'Amour
Bay 2007
Street Cry
Bay or brown 1998
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Coup de Folie
Bay 1982
Halo
Raise the Standard
1969
1978
2-d
2-d
Helen Street
Bay 1982
Troy
Bay 1976
Petingo
La Milo
1965
1963
22>
1-b
Waterway
Chestnut 1976
Riverman
Boulevard
1969
1968
10-a
1-l
Western Love
Chestnut 1995
Western Symphony
Bay 1981
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Flaming Page
1961
1959
2-d
8-f
Millicent
Bay 1969
Cornish Prince
Milan Mill
1962
1962
1-s
22-d
Miracle of Love
Bay 1985
Kaoru Star
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Kaoru
1946
1955
1-g
31>
Panvorelle
Bay or brown 1974
Convamore
Pandorelle
1962
1960
2-f
3-h
 Ancestor duplications:Danzig5m,5m x Troy5f x 4f




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 8:23am
Originally posted by HH88 HH88 wrote:

What is the name of the dam?

Fiammarosa (Danehill)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote HH88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 10:23am
Big Game is a son of Bahram.
Fiorente's winners highlighted in the post carry daughters of Bahram in the dams.
Trust this helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 10:46am
I have a feeling Big Game may be the sire of one of my favourites Faux Tirage , but memory may be out lol, Knave and Straight Draw come to mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 12:45pm
Spot on Carioca

Big Game - A rich bay colt foaled on 24th January 1939, by Bahram out of Myrobellea, by Tetratema , the fourth foal of his dam . Myrobella raced 15 times for 11 wins , whilst Bahram was unbeaten on the Turf. Both his sire and dam headed the free handicap foe two year olds . 
He was a massively built , handsome , quality colt, with heavy shoulders and powerful quarters. 
race record 9 races (2 seasons) 8 wins 1 placing.
Notable progeny : Combat; Faux Tirage; Makapura ( broodie sire of Biscay); Bride Elect (dam of Hethersett);  Ambiguity and Queenpot. 
2 years
Hurstbourne Plate 5f
Cranbourne Stakes 5f
Salisbury Plate 5f
Champagne Stakes 5f
at 3 years
Salisbury Stakes 7f
Two Thousand Guineas 1m
Champion Stakes 1m.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

What do you mean Gay?


There aren't many races longer than a mile up Townsville way.


Ahhh I gotcha now. Post order made me think you were talking about the filly I posted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Mr Prospector Mr Prospector wrote:

Spot on Carioca

Big Game - A rich bay colt foaled on 24th January 1939, by Bahram out of Myrobellea, by Tetratema , the fourth foal of his dam . Myrobella raced 15 times for 11 wins , whilst Bahram was unbeaten on the Turf. Both his sire and dam headed the free handicap foe two year olds . 
He was a massively built , handsome , quality colt, with heavy shoulders and powerful quarters. 
race record 9 races (2 seasons) 8 wins 1 placing.
Notable progeny : Combat; Faux Tirage; Makapura ( broodie sire of Biscay); Bride Elect (dam of Hethersett);  Ambiguity and Queenpot. 
2 years
Hurstbourne Plate 5f
Cranbourne Stakes 5f
Salisbury Plate 5f
Champagne Stakes 5f
at 3 years
Salisbury Stakes 7f
Two Thousand Guineas 1m
Champion Stakes 1m.

Thanks Mr Prospector, the mention of Makapura reminds me of the story he came out to OZ with the great ( or soon to be ) Star Kingdom, I have just watched a replay of the 1962 English Derby won by Larkspur ridden by Neville Selwood ( V. O'Brien) was that the Hethersett ( the fav.) that fell in the race?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 3:55pm
I'm not exactly working from memory CariocaLOL. Big Game is a great speed influence IMHO and a magic influence if you can strengthen it in a pedigree and hence whenever i see it in a pedigree I look a bit closer . 
I had to scramble for 1962 Bloodstock breeders Review for your question and yes your memory is spot on again .Hethersett fell in the derby . 
Reading the story four or five horses fell and Larkspur with Sellwood on board had to violently swerve to avoid the pile up . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 5:39pm
Thanks again for your response Mr P.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 8:08pm
Hello,
may I point out Big Game is to find in "Aggressor", dam Sire of Acatenango, Sire of Dalicia and dam of Animal Kingdom. He stud a few seasons in AUS.
 
As already known Bahram appears via Espresso (by Acropolis, stood in Germany) sire of Anatvka, dam of the FS's Allegretta (Galileo) and Alya (Adlerflug) and Antuco/Mondrian/Beeshi. Espresso had a HB named King of Babylon (by King of the Tudors) sent to AUS.
 
Btw, in 2016 a book was published about abovementioned Sire, by Peter Corbett:
Bahram & the Aga Khan III, published by Rinaldo Publishing, Stowmarket, ISBN 987-0-9566642-1-1
A lot of Information, not only about his racing career, but with much info about his offspring (Sire and dams). I paid about 30 English Pounds for it. Probably hard to find in your part of the world.
 
regards, Ticino
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HH88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 12:12pm
Mannza can be added to Fiorente's list of winners who's dams carry daughters of Bahram.
In this instance there is also a daughter of Persian Gulf.

A very good-looking horse was Bahram - possibly a shade on the leg, like so many god racers - and his performances were impeccable. He was far and away the best of his age at two and three years old, winning all nine races value 43,086 pounds. His success included the 2000 Guineas, the Derby and the St. Leger, and he never new defeat. He left the racecourse an absolutely sound horse and started at stud as a 4-year-old at a fee of 500 guineas a mare. As a personal opinion I would place him as near the best of my time. It was not only the easy manner in which he won his races, and it must be confessed that his generation as a whole were not particularly good, but the horse himself was such an attractive individual.
Attribution: Bloodstock Breeding by Sir Charles Leicester
Published by Odhams Press Limited London. 1957.

Faux Tirage ( by Big Game) was mentioned earlier in the thread. 
He stood at Okawa Stud in Hawke's Bay and his race record follows:
At two years won both starts - the Granville Stakes at Ascot and the Rous Memorial Stakes at Newmarket. Won 3 times at three years including the Newmarket Stakes, St. James Palace Stakes and ran third in the Eclipse Stakes, his only defeat.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 10:24pm
Mayor... I'm posting these pics on behalf of HH88.

A closer look at Stars of Carrum suggests the effective line-breeding is now one generation closer from Bahram, that is Persian Gulf.

A sex balanced line breeders dream with a son and daughter of Persian Gulf plus Doubleton, his full sister.
Should potentially work for both colts and fillies.

Very nice trifecta. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 10:26pm
Mayor.. continued, on behalf of HH88

Given the 3 stallions involved in this line-breeding scenario ie Precipitation, Persian Gulf and Bahram the odds of finding a picture of all three on one page would be at fairly long odds.

However:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enabled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by Mayor Mayor wrote:

Mayor... I'm posting these pics on behalf of HH88.

<div style="font-family: Helvetica;">A closer look at Stars of Carrum suggests the effective line-breeding is now one generation closer from Bahram, that is Persian Gulf.<br ="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica;">A sex balanced line breeders dream with a<b =""> son and <b ="">daughter of Persian Gulf plus Doubleton, <b ="">his full sister.<div style="font-family: Helvetica;">Should potentially work for both colts and fillies.<br ="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica;">Very nice trifecta. <div style="font-family: Helvetica;">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica;">


Surely you did not write up that lineage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HH88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 1:41pm
A considerable amount of research is required to arrive at (in this case) the position that at this early stage a disproportionally high number of his winners to date have balanced line breeding to Bahram/Persian Gulf.
All of his winners named in the thread have been subject to the same degree of analysis as Stars of Carrum so the answer to your question is yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 6:54pm
Hello,
I dont't want tp praise myself, I pointed to the "triple" of linebreeding  in the ped of "Stars of Carrum" about a fortnight ago.
 
Interestingly "Kalaglow" is the Sire of "Sternkönig" in Germany, from the same damline as Star Appeal. I i remember corretly, he was sent to Germany, but died pretty soon afterwards,
 
Standaan (Zeddaan), I spot in some peds, belongs to the same damline, more descents are Meld and Charlottown, Declan's Moon, Ramonti, Montmartre
 
regards. Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linghi11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2018 at 1:39pm
I have a mare with 4 strains of Bahram, she’s in foal now but I may give her a whirl with Fiorente next year if this trend continues.
to the victor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HH88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 11:58am
The trend continues with Piemonte winning yesterday.
Balanced line breeding to a male and female strain of Persian Gulf.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 1:34pm
Way too early to tell regarding this 'trend'.

The only horse that has put his hand up as above average is Stars of Carrum. There are quite a few horses with Bahram or Persian Gulf that are not winners or even placegetters. 

It is all about opportunity and how many have the cross and then how many win or are stakeswinners. I would say that we'd have to wait till the end of the current crop of 3yo's finish their 4yo season before we can have a large enough sample of winners or stakeswinners to make an assumption.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 1:50pm
Alessandro is one you have forgotten Kavg.


Another one to keep an eye out for is the Waterhorse trained Fiorentino. 

FIORENTINO (AUS)Bay or brown colt 2015 
Fiorente
Brown 2008
Monsun
Bay or brown 1990
Konigsstuhl
Brown 1976
Dschingis Khan
Brown 1961
Tamerlane
Donna Diana
1952
1956
1-e
6-e
Konigskronung
Brown 1965
Tiepoletto
Kronung
1956
1957
2-c
5-h
Mosella
Bay 1985
Surumu
Chestnut 1974
Literat
Surama
1965
1970
7-b
19>
Monasia
Bay 1979
Authi
Monacensia
1970
1969
14-b
8-a
Desert Bloom
Bay 2000
Pilsudski
Bay 1992
Polish Precedent
Bay 1986
Danzig
Past Example
1977
1976
7-a
8-h
Cocotte
Bay 1983
Troy
Gay Milly
1976
1977
1-b
11>
Desert Beauty
Bay 1994
Green Desert
Bay 1983
Danzig
Foreign Courier
1977
1979
7-a
A4
Hellenic
Bay 1987
Darshaan
Grecian Sea
1981
1978
13-c
5-h
Fulminate
Bay or brown 2009
Encosta de Lago
Bay 1993
Fairy King
Bay 1982
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Shoal Creek
Chestnut 1988
Star Way
Chestnut 1977
Star Appeal
New Way
1970
1970
5-d
6-e
Rolls
Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector
Grand Luxe
1970
1974
13-c
4-g
Dazzle Light
Bay 1997
Danzero
Bay 1991
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Razyana
1977
1981
7-a
2-d
Confidentially
Bay or brown 1978
Kaoru Star
Idesa
1965
1972
31>
13-b
Travel Light
Grey 1982
Bellissimo
Grey 1971
Petingo
Belle de Retz
1965
1962
22>
16-b
Otalight
Chestnut 1971
All A'Light
Otaha
1963
1956
1-s
5-d
 Ancestor duplications:Danzig5m,5m x 5m




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 1:55pm
Lots of inbreeding to Northern Dancer due to the way of bloodlines today also.  Many never win.  But maybe the tail female line is also important don't you think.  

Piemonte is one of a couple of Fiorente's I marked to follow.  From the female line of Street Cry and from a Canny Lad mare it seemed a nice mix.  A Darshaan f x m and Konigsstuhl over a line of Sadler's Wells in the female.  Danzig/Bletchingly cross.  Plenty of catches so the hope one comes through.  Hopefully he can go on with the job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 2:50pm
I haven't forgotten Alessandro djebel but he has yet to prove himself and that is why I would wait another season and a half before seeing a trend.

There are many others who can't run or haven't had a run yet that have the 'trend' and we can not overlook that fact.

And as Furious mentioned piemonte is from tail female of street cry. I also notice Mannza has Street cry as broodmare sire. Could street cry be a trend? Street cry has good stats with sadlers wells family and fiorente tail female is same as sadlers.
Or could it be troy that is the key who appears in street cry and fiorente?
Or could it be riverman that is the key? He appears in street cry but also anabaa the damsire of stars of carrum.

Riverman's sire is never bend who appears twice in pedigree of desert bloom the dam of fiorente.

Riverman/never bend/lalun look more of a key to my eye.
If you want peace in this world stop being a hypocrite and start with what is on your plate and in your bowl.
Black Lives Matter. No justice no peace.
DiEM25 for the world.
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