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Djebel

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    Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:32pm

DJEBEL (FR)Bay colt 1937 
Tourbillon
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Omnium
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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5-j
 Ancestor duplications:Omnium5f,4f x Hamptonx 5m,5m Bay Ronaldx 4m,5f 
  Galopinx 5f,5f



So as not to pollute other threads, although I reserve the right to do so, I will vent my anger in this thread.

Thank you.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:39pm
Melbourne Cup weights released today.

1 horse with 58.5, 6 horses with more than 55.5 kgs. 

It really is a self fulfilling prophecy when it comes to horses not being able to carry weight in the Melbourne Cup.

The minimum top weight should be 60 kgs and when acceptances are eventually taken all weights should be raised in relation to their true handicap to reach a weight of 60 kgs.

This could result in a weight spread of 10+ kgs or in a really good year it could result in the top weigh having 60 kgs and he bottom weight 57.

If the top 24 held their ground with Anthony Van Dyck on 60 kgs and Red Verdon bottom weight on 55.5 kgs it would throw the whole historical weight issue into chaos.  

1120330x25xANTHONY VAN DYCK (IRE)H5Aidan O'Brien158.5kg1
247x54533x4AVILIUS (GB)G7James Cummings257kg2.5
33x2301x32xSOVEREIGN (IRE)H5Aidan O'Brien357kg2.5
41x421x395xVOW AND DECLAREG5Danny O'Brien457kg2.5
53354x6221xMASTER OF REALITY (IRE)G6Joseph O'Brien556kg3.5
61107x3141xTELECASTER (GB)H5Hughie Morrison656kg3.5
761x421x90xREGAL POWERG5Grant & Alana Williams755.5kg4
8x44x2x222xSIR DRAGONET (IRE)H5Ciaron Maher & David Eustace855.5kg4
9x70x7x211xTWILIGHT PAYMENT (IRE)G8Joseph O'Brien955.5kg4
1052112x216xBUCKHURST (IRE)H5Joseph O'Brien1055kg4.5
110x03643x7xMIRAGE DANCER (GB)H7Trent Busuttin & Natalie Young1155kg4.5
1260x1225x0xMUSTAJEER (GB)G8Kris Lees1255kg4.5
132104xPx72xSTRATUM (GB)G8William Mullins1355kg4.5
140x42212x1xVERRY ELLEEGANT (NZ)M5Chris Waller1455kg3
1514579x114xDASHING WILLOUGHBY (GB)G5Andrew Balding1554.5kg5
1634x51257x3FINCHE (GB)G7Chris Waller1654.5kg5
171x1211111xNANCHO (GER)G6Anthony Cummings1754.5kg5
18120x3x36x3PRINCE OF ARRAN (GB)G8Charlie Fellowes1854.5kg5
194132x415x2SURPRISE BABY (NZ)G6Paul Preusker1954.5kg5
206x19x17x7xYOUNG RASCAL (FR)G6Archie Alexander2054.5kg5
21100x80x00xCAPE OF GOOD HOPE (IRE)H5Tom Dabernig & Ben Hayes2154kg5.5
22002x902x2xMR QUICKIEG5Phillip Stokes2254kg5.5
232x21x1113xPATRICK SARSFIELD (FR)H5Joseph O'Brien2354kg5.5
24108x4x114xRED VERDON (USA)G8Ed Dunlop2454kg5.5


Edited by djebel - 08 Sep 2020 at 8:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:45pm
And why do we expect such dramatic re-handicapping of previous seasons Melbourne Cup winners ?

Vow And Declare was a very lucky winner of last years contest.

He meets the unlucky Surprise Baby 4 kgs worse for a 0.9 lengths advantage. How is this proper handicapping ?

Realistically they should be carrying the same weights. Vow And Declare would still be worse off. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:59pm
Leave it be I say, this is a race that allows owners to dream , to tamper with the structure to suit the whims of a few is sacrilege, when it comes to the crunch this is one race that should never bow to the blinkered view who whinge and whine, I would change one thing though, limit the final o/s accepters to 5. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 10:34pm
As I have said plenty of times djebel the handicapping is flawed for this race.

As long as Carpenter continues to use the WFA structure as a foundation, the weights will be manipulated.

I would be very interested in how many runners from 1970 to 2000, carried 57 kilos or more and what effect the WFA table had on those weight allocations. This would give us a guide as to how the international runners have influenced the weight allocation.

The fact that horses from Europe get in four and five kilos under WFA, having won with 57 or 58 or more, after having won a listed or group 3 race, yet a horse like Russian Camelot who wins a weak SADerby ( by others judgement) only get 1.5 to 2 kilos off that group is beyond me. It shows that the quality of the races being assessed is irrelevant.

The fact that a european listed race winner at 54.5 kilos or 55 kilos is valued more ( by that I mean they are more welcome to run through the weight they are allocated), than a classic winner shows the VRC are also manipulating the clauses by being more advantageous to european winners of races which have had no bearing on past Melbourne Cups. 

Anyway it is what it is but as I continue to say we will never see a classic winning four year old ever win another Melbourne Cup while the weight distribution. 

I suppose you can say that the classic winners are not good enough, but if Russian camelot wins, then Godolphin, Australian Bloodstock and OTI will start targeting northern hemisphere 2yo's and 3yo's to run in our classics.  
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:11pm
The N/H 3 Y/Os that have won or been placed have had a tough time recuperating from this race , of the unplaced brigade I can't recall them turning into stars, Skipton to my knowledge was our last 3Y/O to win and that was very early 40s, I hope Danny waits one more year with Russian Camelot, imo at such an early age is too good to risk, he'd make a beautiful WFA horse at this stage of his life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 9:02am
This thread is a bit "look at me" isn't it mate? LOL
Time is a flat circle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 12:06pm
I am a bit of a show off.

I was expecting when I woke this AM that this thread would be pinned with the Melbourne Cup and other important threads at the top of the page.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 12:13pm
LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2020 at 10:22pm
Legend in your own mind ???  Wink
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2020 at 11:16am
1474.2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 12:25pm
Wayne Hawkes has apparently said the 1200m straight races at Flemington need a 1400m horse to win.

Think that may have been the case when they had large field large spread handicaps charging down the straight.

Now even in a handicap there is rarely a massive spread and they sit and sprint.

It takes a proper sprinter or a very fresh horse to win down the straight these days.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 12:29pm
Kermajack is a scratching from Kembla today. Keep an eye on him.

He has noms for a 1400m contest at the Farm on Wednesday and a 1300m contest at Kembla on Thursday.

He was being offered today at 25/1, hopefully we get a similar offering in whichever contest they choose for him.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2020 at 1:32pm
minimum weight spreads is one of the main causes of congestion in Straight sixes these days , that with a lack of intuition and jocks not allowing their mounts to strike a rhythm, no wonder so many throat ops, imo anyhow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2020 at 11:55am
Last year Rock won the Cameron handicap off the minimum weight.

Yesterday he carried just 1.5 kgs over the minimum weight.

Vow And Declare carried the minimum to win last years Melbourne Cup. This year he will be required to carry at least 5 kgs over the minimum possibly 7 depending on who wins The Bart Cummings and or the The Hotham.

No wonder Melbourne Cup winners struggle to win more races of any kind, they are crucified.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2020 at 12:52pm
They win plenty of prizemoney, a good compensation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 7:05pm
I refuse to open the Dan Andrews thread.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 7:10pm
I wouldn't want you to taint your innocent eyes 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 7:12pm
LOL I am sure it is all very hospitable in there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 7:13pm
Everyone is very friendly Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:35am
As most know I have a great many problems with Australian racing, one that crops up at all the major carnivals is horses qualifying to get into races.

Because we race on poxy little courses that only allow for small fields it is even a struggle for horses to get into qualifying races for the big ones.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 10:35am
Going through the pedigrees of the debutants over the next 3 days and it reinforces my thoughts on our trainers and their methods.

It aint the breeding or the horses that is the problem with a stayers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 12:14pm
For crying out loud Jamal, STOP quoting the bloody posts immediately above your reply! We CAN all read that far back Stern Smile

A question for you Djebel. Why was Bart Cummings head and shoulders above the rest when it came to the training and conditioning of stayers. Special mention to George Hanlon too.

In your opinion, is it a mindset thing? Trainers like Bart and George loved training stayers and it was an art-form. Nowadays is it a mindset of "too hard" for some of our trainers? Currently I think Danny 'Brien is the best trainer in Australia when it comes to stayers.

Cheers.


Edited by Gay3 - 08 Oct 2020 at 1:14pm
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 12:31pm
Carioca might be able to answer that in more detail.

I have used this quote a few times lately but with what James is doing with Colette it could not ring more true.

Bart " I taught them everything they know, not everything I know"

I suspect he had his feeding routine perfected from a young age. The things he did with horses was amazing when you think of the different challenges with Light Fingers and Saintly amongst many.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 1:18pm
Bart raced all his potential stayers in races far too short, the mindset being they are run off their feet early, so learn to relax behind others. How many young stayers do we see go from 1200 - 1600 in a slowly run race, pulling their heads off due to the lack of tempo? Case in point So You Can at his last start in a small field.
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 1:23pm
Why do we not see that in the Japanese or European horses ?

Bart was keeping things very close to his chest.

One of the better UK Jumps trainers hates buying or taking in former flat horses for the very opposite of what you are saying. By racing them over shorter trips where they have to run out of their skin to keep up it actually teaches them to over race.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 1:42pm
 They're not trained on circle tracks e.g. DOB now trains his stayers at his Barwon Heads farm & starts them off over more suitable distances.
Jim Houlihan loved to make jumpers out of sprinters, he believed they could lob along way under their top throughout, only using their superior speed for the last furlong e.g Strasbourg a Grand Annual winner by Matrice Smile

Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 2:14pm
Bart trained his horses not to Pull that is why starting in sprints and gradually increasing distances they settled far better, they also weren't geared up with hot feed crap pellet feed like today so their metabolism remained steady, he had the innate ability to look inside the horse not many could do that , pop up races in the last 15 years has skewed our trainers right off the page in regard to the many dimensions of training , imo the best have passed us by but I'm heavenly biased as you all know, there will never be another Bart, just like a Bradman, Clarke Gable , Marilyn or Elvis.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 3:02pm


Did you know Bart well or worked with him?


Edited by Gay3 - 09 Oct 2020 at 7:36am
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2020 at 3:26pm
Many of my friends did Jamal, the couple of trainers I worked for stripped at the track in stalls 20-30 feet away from Bart every morning, we drank together in the evening and many a friendship was made, they were good times, I imagine far different from today as jockeys stayed and rode work till the track shut .
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