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Desecration of Statues

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2020 at 7:27pm
Yes, I read about a German fella who had two sons in the AIF, being interned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2020 at 10:16pm
They just might tip the plank if they start interfereing with Anzac statues and such like, especially in the small towns.  
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2020 at 12:59am
The BLM fools should read the stats on the number killed & wounded since
The career criminal passed away.
Dozens killed and hundreds wounded ,     Beggers belief.

Giuliano said America is going through the Communists Revolution.

    Declare War and put them back in their bottle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 12:13pm

Not all slopes are slippery

How to decide which statues can remain and which need to go


https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/not-all-slopes-are-slippery/

...

That does not mean, however, that we let pass all that is past. We also need to ask what it is about the dead that we are celebrating. When that has nothing at all to do with anything morally dubious, we’re not glorifying bigotry even if, as a matter of fact, the person in question was a bigot. For example, in my home town of Folkestone we have a statue of William Harvey and I went to a school named after him. Harvey’s discovery of the circulation of the blood in the seventeenth century benefited all humankind. That would still be true if it came to light that he was racist, which he very possibly was, simply given the nature of Britain at the time. A person is many things: a parent, a member of a club or congregation, an athlete, a musician. We can admire them for one of these things while remaining silent on the others.


But when the very thing that we are remembering a person for is itself morally objectionable, changing times should lead us to change our heroes. Colston is a good/bad example of this. His racism was not incidental to his “achievements”. It is no use protesting that we can honour him as a philanthropist and turn a blind eye to how he earned his fortune. He would not have had a statue erected to him had he not been a slave trader. Unlike Harvey, nothing in what made his reputation is admirable today, or something that we should feel thankful for.

The distinction between Harvey and Colston seems clear enough but there are intermediate cases. This is especially tricky with military memorials. Many of our wars have been imperialistic or dynastic struggles, lacking just cause. But we don’t have to simply accept that all were doing their patriotic duty as it was then understood. Some have more serious stains against them.

The crowdsourced map of dubious monuments at toppletheracists.org implicitly acknowledges this distinction. Nelson, for instance, is not singled out for his military adventures but for using his status to resist Wilberforce and the abolitionist movement. He was not simply caught up in a slave-trading society; he actively worked to perpetuate it. The map also targets a memorial to Marshal Arthur Bomber Harris, but not the memorial to Bomber Command, which remembers the airmen and women who died following his orders in the belief that they were defending their nation.

Making these distinctions requires that we look at the degree of wrongdoing, relative to its time. Nelson was not just a racist in a racist world, but a defender of racism against contemporaries who were challenging it. Bomber Harris was not just a Marshal following the rules of military engagement but one who targeted civilians, even after being advised that it wouldn’t even achieve its aim of destroying morale.

I’ve suggested three questions that we need to ask of the people standing on our public plinths. Is the achievement for which they are being celebrated intimately or causally tied to their sins? Were they significantly worse than others of their time? How recent was the offence? These questions do not add up to a complete and rigorous set of tests. Issues are too complicated to be settled by any moral algorithm. It could be, for example, that there is a statue to someone who is being remembered for the good things they did, not the bad, who erred not more than anyone of their age did, and all in the distant past, yet which should still come down. Perhaps the legacy of the wrongdoing they are implicated in is such that the monument is a living offence. This is what makes slavery such a powerful vector in this debate. Nelson’s crimes may be more than two hundred years in the past but the consequences of the slave trade he fought to preserve are still being played out.


An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 12:17pm
"Asking where this is all going to end is a very effective means of whipping up panic.Shocked But slippery slope arguments are themselves slippery and need to be treated with caution. They force us to take one of two extreme, polarized positions and do not allow anything more nuanced. When the slope is slippery, the only place to be is safely at the top or right down at the bottom. There is no in-between. In the case of statues it would mean leaving everything as it is or tearing down more than most people would think reasonable."

Julian Baggini
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 12:24pm
Beware of the arbiter of morals, or indeed anyone who is "wise after the event". They're a dime a dozen. The more forward-looking and thinking are those that change the world, not dikheads who want to point out the "sins" of the distant past. The brave men of RAF Bomber Command, who suffered awful rates of attrition 1939-45 (overall, 50% died) have come in for attention by do-gooders who point to their participation in bombing areas where civilians lived, as a "crime". I cannot imagine the fortitude required, to enlist, and there was a constant supply of newcomers, there had to be, to replace those lost, for a task that promised a 50% chance of survival, over their 30-mission "tour". That is the kind of sacrifice do-gooder statue demolition dikheads would not contemplate for a second.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 12:27pm
"The map also targets a memorial to Marshal Arthur Bomber Harris, but not the memorial to Bomber Command, which remembers the airmen and women who died following his orders in the belief that they were defending their nation."
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 12:31pm

Oxford Rebukes Idiot Activists! This letter is a response from Oxford to Black Students attending as Rhodes Scholars to remove the statue of Oxford Benefactor, Cecil Rhodes.

 "Dear Scrotty Students,

Cecil Rhodes's generous bequest has contributed greatly to the comfort  

and well being of many generations of Oxford students - a good many of  

them, dare we say it, better, brighter and more deserving than you.

 This does not necessarily mean we approve of everything Rhodes did in  

his lifetime - but then we don't have to. Cecil Rhodes died over a  

century ago. Autres temps, autres moeurs. If you don't understand what  

this means - and it would not remotely surprise us if that were the  

case - then we really think you should ask yourself the question: "Why  

am I at Oxford?"

Oxford, let us remind you, is the world's second oldest extant  

university. Scholars have been studying here since at least the 11th  

century. We've played a major part in the invention of Western  

civilisation, from the 12th century intellectual renaissance through  

the Enlightenment and beyond. Our alumni include William of Ockham,  

Roger Bacon, William Tyndale, John Donne, Sir Walter Raleigh, Erasmus,  

Sir Christopher Wren, William Penn, Rep. Adam Smith (D-WA), Samuel  

Johnson, Robert Hooke, William Morris, Oscar Wilde, Emily Davison,  

Cardinal Newman, Julie Cocks. We're a big deal. And most of the people  

privileged to come and study here are conscious of what a big deal we  

are. Oxford is their alma mater - their dear mother - and they respect  

and revere her accordingly.

And what were your ancestors doing in that period? Living in mud huts,  

mainly. Sure we'll concede you the short lived Southern African  

civilisation of Great Zimbabwe. But let's be brutally honest here. The  

contribution of the Bantu tribes to modern civilisation has been as  

near as damn it to zilch.

You'll probably say that's "racist". But it's what we here at Oxford  

prefer to call "true." Perhaps the rules are different at other  

universities. In fact, we know things are different at other  

universities. We've watched with horror at what has been happening  

across the pond from the University of Missouri to the University of  

Virginia and even to revered institutions like Harvard and Yale: the  

"safe spaces"; the? #?blacklivesmatter; the creeping cultural  

relativism; the stifling political correctness; what Allan Bloom  

rightly called "the closing of the American mind" At Oxford however,  

we will always prefer facts and free, open debate to petty  

grievance-mongering, identity politics and empty sloganeering. The day  

we cease to do so is the day we lose the right to call ourselves the  

world's greatest university.

Of course, you are perfectly within your rights to squander your time  

at Oxford on silly, vexatious, single-issue political campaigns.  

(Though it does make us wonder how stringent the vetting procedure is  

these days for Rhodes scholarships and even more so, for Mandela  

Rhodes scholarships) We are well used to seeing undergraduates - or,  

in your case - postgraduates, making idiots of themselves. Just don't  

expect us to indulge your idiocy, let alone genuflect before it. You  

may be black - "BME" as the grisly modern terminology has it - but we  

are colour blind. We have been educating gifted undergraduates from  

our former colonies, our Empire, our Commonwealth and beyond for many  

generations. We do not discriminate over sex, race, colour or creed.  

We do, however, discriminate according to intellect.

That means, inter alia, that when our undergrads or postgrads come up  

with fatuous ideas, we don't pat them on the back, give them a red  

rosette and say: "Ooh, you're black and you come from South Africa.  

What a clever chap you are!"  No. We prefer to see the quality of  

those ideas tested in the crucible of public debate. That's another  

key part of the Oxford intellectual tradition you see: you can argue  

any damn thing you like but you need to be able to justify it with  

facts and logic - otherwise your idea is worthless.

This ludicrous notion you have that a bronze statue of Cecil Rhodes  

should be removed from Oriel College, because it's symbolic of  

"institutional racism" and "white slavery" Well even if it is - which  

we dispute - so bloody what? Any undergraduate so feeble-minded that  

they can't pass a bronze statue without having their "safe space"  

violated really does not deserve to be here. And besides, if we were  

to remove Rhodes's statue on the premise that his life wasn't  

blemish-free, where would we stop? As one of our alumni Dan Hannan has  

pointed out, Oriel's other benefactors include two kings so awful -  

Edward II and Charles I - that their subjects had them killed. The  

college opposite - Christ Church - was built by a murderous, thieving  

bully who bumped off two of his wives. Thomas Jefferson kept slaves:  

does that invalidate the US Constitution? Winston Churchill had  

unenlightened views about Muslims and India: was he then the wrong man  

to lead Britain in the war?"

Actually, we'll go further than that. Your Rhodes Must Fall campaign  

is not merely fatuous but ugly, vandalistic and dangerous. We agree  

with Oxford historian RW Johnson that what you are trying to do here  

is no different from what ISIS and the Al-Qaeda have been doing to  

artefacts in places like Mali and Syria. You are murdering history.

And who are you, anyway, to be lecturing Oxford University on how it  

should order its affairs? Your ?#?rhodesmustfall campaign, we  

understand, originates in South Africa and was initiated by a black  

activist who told one of his lecturers "whites have to be killed". One  

of you - Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh - is the privileged son of a rich  

politician and a member of a party whose slogan is "Kill the Boer;  

Kill the Farmer"; another of you, Ntokozo Qwabe, who is only in Oxford  

as a beneficiary of a Rhodes scholarship, has boasted about the need  

for "socially conscious black students" to "dominate white  

universities, and do so ruthlessly and decisively!

Great. That's just what Oxford University needs. Some cultural  

enrichment from the land of Winnie Mandela, burning tyre necklaces, an  

AIDS epidemic almost entirely the result of government indifference  

and ignorance, one of the world's highest per capita murder rates,  

institutionalised corruption, tribal politics, anti-white racism and a  

collapsing economy. Please name which of the above items you think  

will enhance the lives of the 22,000 students studying here at Oxford.

And then please explain what it is that makes your attention grabbing  

campaign to remove a listed statue from an Oxford college more urgent,  

more deserving than the desire of probably at least 20,000 of those  

22,000 students to enjoy their time here unencumbered by the  

irritation of spoilt, ungrateful little lollipops on scholarships they  

clearly don't merit using racial politics and cheap guilt-tripping to  

ruin the life and fabric of our beloved university.

Understand us and understand this clearly: you have everything to  

learn from us; we have nothing to learn from you.

Yours, Oriel College, Oxford

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

"The map also targets a memorial
to Marshal Arthur Bomber Harris, but not the memorial to Bomber Command, which
remembers the airmen and women who died following his orders in the belief that
they were defending their nation."

Whilst medals were struck for all manner and theatres of service, the men of Bomber Command were excluded from such an honour, or were, till quite recently. Needless to say, almost all of the survivors were already dead. They are supposed by hand-wringers, to be responsible for the "unnecessary" destruction of civilian life. There is little doubt that the bombing campaign over Germany, shortened the war, and tied up German military assets that would have otherwise been free to wreak more havoc on the Eastern Front. Whilst it became obvious after the war, that the heavy bomber fleet was perhaps a poor allocation of resources, and a great many allied airmen, and German civilian lives, could have been saved, and the effect on German war production greater, had efforts been concentrated on the production and use of aircraft such as the De Havilland Mosquito, instead, that is simply a matter of being wise after the event.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 1:05pm
That Oxford letter is a sham of course, BB, but wouldn't it be great i it wasn't? Imagine a world where this stuff was just laughed off by any grown-up with a brain, amd especially by academics and "intellectuals."
Some great one liners in there.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 1:27pm
Adolf introduced the very effective methods of hitting civilians .
London and other cities were hit hard.

(Something they practiced in 1937 in Guernica[2]during the Spanish civil war. They began the bombing of civilians, just not in Britain. Germany bombed civilians first, because they were on the attack first and the Battle of Britain was raging.)

I would have executed 95% of Germans afterWW2 and it would now be known as Israilamy....      Plus japan would have got 100 Atom bombs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 2:51pm
That letter is wonderful, even if it is a sham.  If only more seats of power could take that approach and point out a few home truths to these PC people wanting to change the course of history.
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by acacia alba acacia alba wrote:

That letter is wonderful, even if it is a sham.  If only more seats of power could take that approach and point out a few home truths to these PC people wanting to change the course of history.
And I couldn't agree more AA, right on the chin.Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2020 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by acacia alba acacia alba wrote:

That letter is wonderful, even if it is a sham.  If only more seats of power could take that approach and point out a few home truths to these PC people wanting to change the course of history.

And I couldn't agree more AA, right on the chin.Clap


It is well documented that History is the greatest educator of all times .   
Ignore it at your peril.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:20am
But you have to hand it to them cowboys Macca, " When the facts get in the way of the legend....print the legend" LOL true story, I seen it on TVLOL great movie, seen it 3 times.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:21am
I thought that honour belonged to Alan Jones, macca ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:52am
Great orator .. researcher and worth listening to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:55am
He has the "gift of the gab", but occasionally loses the plot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 11:21am
I do not know how much truth in the rumour that the BLM movement has come to its senses and of thinking of a name change to the BOBC, (Black On Black Crimes ) which evidently has more relevance in the USA 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 11:36am
America is an open-air lunatic asylum awash with hand-guns, and the dikheads worry about everything except the obvious, the need to take them off the streets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 11:41am
It’s interesting you say that maxy. It’s certainly the impression we get given but I’ve never met a bad one 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 11:44am
The sad thing, max, is that this lunacy in US right now could be seen as justifying the need for people to have guns to defend their lives and property. I've thought for years that the greatest threat to the USA is the prospect of them taking sides and shooting each other up. It's getting pretty close to happening now, with agitators of all kinds trying to fuel the fire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 11:50am
A "bad" what, Shrunk ? American ? Turn it up, they have their share of arzeholes, like everywhere, but anger turns to murder, all too easily, with people toting guns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:05pm
Just saying the ones I’ve met whilst travelling over there have all been nice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:06pm
Hand guns, automatic rifles is it any wonder there are thousands of murders in the USA each year. Their constitution was written in 1787 when the only firearm was a musket. If the only firearm they were allowed to carry in civilian life was a musket they would be a whole lot better off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

Just saying the ones I’ve met whilst travelling over there have all been nice

Many Americans are disarmingly polite, a shame they can't disarm the ones that aren't !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 1:08pm
As Shrunk says, there are lots of good decent Americans.  Over 7 years living there and in that time I met many.  They are not all like some on here perceive them to be.  
Sure there are lots of feral good ole boys, but, we have our fair share of those too.  While some here dont have guns,  more and more all the time do. 
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 1:09pm
Look how many drive by shootings in Sydney alone, these days, before you tell me our good ole boys dont have guns.
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 1:18pm
Yeah, well hard-core crooks having guns is one thing, young and stupid not-really-crims having them, in huge numbers, another thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 1:43pm
II  carried a gun in my hand bag when I lived there, Max,  and I was neither of the above, just FYI. Ermm
animals before people.
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