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Denis Pagan |
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Bonjour
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 1:56pm |
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Denis Pagan, you know the retired vfl/afl coach is training from boxes at Flemington,????
How does that work? Leasing boxes from Leon and Troy? Starting off at 72 yo, Good old RVL, what about all those young trainers crying out for a chance to kick off at Headquarters and sent to the bush? Is that fair and equatable? It stinks, it's not Corstens fault, he's their mate and they want to help out, that's admirable; what's not is allowing a 'name' a celebrity to queue jump some poor young fella/gal waiting in line after doing years and years as stablehands and then as a foreperson. I would have thought there would have been a ruckus about this, but nada so far......shame, the boys club down there in Danistan is alive and well.
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Carioca
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Now that is a joke, but nothing surprises me now in racing no matter where .
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djebel
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Ben Dorries AFL coaching legend Denis Pagan confesses he was hoping to have a low-key, no-fuss start to his new career as a horse trainer but realises that is probably long odds as he prepares to saddle up his first runner at Flemington on Saturday. The 72-year-old two-time North Melbourne premiership coach knows his appearance in the training ranks will cause interest but jokes he will be trying to remain out of sight when two-year-old gelding Johnny Get Angry races at Victorian headquarters. After serving a training apprenticeship of sorts under Troy and Leon Corstens, Pagan has been granted a training license and has half a dozen horses he will train out of Flemington from boxes sub-letted by the Corstens’. They are all horses that Pagan owns himself – and will run in blue colours with white dots, white sleeves and a red cap that Pagan chose himself. The AFL master coach insists he only wants a small team of horses and currently only wants to train his own horses – despite realising his public profile in Victoria will no doubt spark the interest of plenty of owners. Pagan is keen to run his own race – so to speak – as he fulfils a desire to train horses that was sparked two years ago. “It is keeping me young and while I’m healthy and well and doing plenty of exercise, what else was I going to do?” Pagan said. “I live close by to Flemington, it’s a two-minute drive in at 4am in the morning from my place to Flemington. “I would have gone to the gym if I wasn’t going down to Flemington – but when you are going to the gym it doesn’t matter whether it is 4.45am or 5.30am as it doesn’t make any difference. “But I know I have got to be down at Flemington by a certain time so I am in the first group. “I keep waking up to check when my alarm is going off. “Troy talked me into this two years ago and if it hadn’t have been for him it wouldn’t have happened – he helped me buy all my horses. “I have already knocked some owners back but a pre-requisite of my license is I can only train for myself at this stage. “I don’t want to be rude or anything but I’m not really into being a public trainer because I will have enough problems with my own horses at this stage of proceedings and I don’t want to be dealing with other people.” Pagan raced horses for many years before taking the plunge into training – estimating he has owned “25 or 30” horses throughout his life. A quick look at the form of his first runner Johnny Get Angry, which ran 13th of 14th behind Cherry Tortoni over 1420m at Flemington on June 20, might dissuade punters from thinking he has a hope as he makes his first appearance for Pagan on Saturday. But as Johnny Get Angry races in Stakes grade in the $120,000 Listed Taj Rossi Series Final (1600m) at Flemington on Saturday, Pagan feels the gelding’s only career run to date was a forgive effort. Having said that, he admits he will be “over the moon” if his galloper can get within three lengths of the unbeaten and highly promising Cherry Tortoni on Saturday. “I like my horse – but he is going to be a bit more suited when he gets over 10 or 12 furlongs,” Pagan said. “He had one run a couple of weeks ago at Flemington and was three-wide without any cover, I thought he did pretty well even though his result in the paper 13th out of 14 didn’t look any good. “But if you watch the replay, a lot of good judges have said that it wasn’t a bad run. “He has drawn a bit better Saturday (barrier five) and I cant see him beating Paddy Payne’s horse (Cherry Tortoni) but if he can get within three lengths of them I will be over the moon.” Apprentice Lachlan King will ride Pagan’s first runner on Saturday. Johnny Get Angry was posted as a $126 chance in opening markets on tab.com.au If you want more information about Pagan's racing journey towards being a trainer, you can read Brad Waters' story which was published on Racenet in August last year by clicking HERE The drive that propelled Denis Pagan to coach two AFL premierships has been transferred to his desire to gain a Victorian trainer’s licence. Pagan coached North Melbourne, led by the great Wayne Carey, to AFL flags in 1996 and 1999 to complement his five premierships at Under 19 level before getting the main job at the Kangaroos. Now 71, Pagan’s involvement in football ended when he left the Carlton Football Club, which was a basket case when he arrived, with a third of the season remaining in 2007. Pagan has run a successful real estate business in Melbourne with his son Ryan since stepping away from football but he has raced horses for many years before taking the plunge into training. He has a pre-trainer’s licence and works with a small team of his own horses at Leon and Troy Corstens’ Flemington stable but Pagan wants to train them in his own right. “I’ve got a pre-trainer’s licence and in a couple of months’ time when I build up my stable, I’ll apply for a trainer’s licence,” Pagan said. “I only want to train six of my own. “Troy is subletting boxes to me and I’m loving what I’m doing with the horses. “I’m doing everything but I can only train my horses up until 28 days from them trialling, that’s part of my brief.” Pagan is happy to start at the bottom, taking the saddles to the stables on raceday before stepping back to allow Corstens and others do the pre-race work while he watches intently. Watching Pagan during the saddling process, one would see the eyes that stared down the likes of Carey, Glenn Archer and later Brendan Fevola during his football days never leave the horse while he takes in everything around. Pagan asks plenty of questions of Corstens, and later well-known track rider Joe Agresta of Bart Cummings stable fame. The passion to compete is still in Pagan. “I won’t be defeated by hard work,” Pagan said. “There’s no fool like an old fool.” Pagan was known for his use of sayings when simplifying his thoughts for his players or the press during his time in footy and he knows he won’t have a champion like Carey in his racing stable. However, he said his horses would be one step ahead of footballers when he starts training. “Wayne Carey, Jacko the blind miner could have trained him,” Pagan said. “They (the horses) can’t go out and have a drink and be silly on the nights before races though. “If I’ve got a bad horse, I don’t think there’s any trainer that can turn cow manure into strawberry jam.” |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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Bonjour
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That's even worse than what I wrote on the integrity thread......a pre-trainers license and at Flemington? Oh shoot me...what's next.
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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max manewer
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SPAM !!!!!!!! The Mayor will need to revoke your "premium" status !
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djebel
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Think I will have a lot hate keyboard warrior relationship with this bloke. Clearly likes a stayer - love him. All the males are geldings - He can get kissed.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Carioca
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Ho hum, the one saving grace in this beautiful country is they all get a chance to pursue their dreams, but Flemington for one so inexperienced, good luck.
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SkyDancer
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That article about the pre trainers license is from last August He has a full license now
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Gay3
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I think Bonjour is astounded by the fact any pre trainer can aquire boxes at a metrop complex, at any time & frankly, so am I
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Carioca
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Well frankly so am I , but I stopped my post in case I went overboard what can you say, it's been done so let sleeping dogs lie so they say, the cutting of corners in everything we do today is now part of life.
Edited by Gay3 - 01 Jul 2020 at 5:31pm |
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Second Chance
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Another side of the coin, mind you, is how many Flemington trainers have full stables these days? For whatever reason, including declining patronage, diversification etc. Relative to Pagan for instance, The Corstens crew have three training bases, Flemington, Geelong and Lurg in NE-Vic.
There's only about 20 trainers there these days, a number of which are satellites for the likes of Hawkes, Freedman, Snowden, McEvoy, Waller, O'Brien, Bott etc. Between carnivals even these people could have any number of unused boxes. Trainers have to pay for their allocated number of boxes, if they can't fill them it's dead money, and I reckon more than a couple would welcome someone like Pagan do help defray expenses. And it's not like there's a huge queue of trainers at the VRC door clamoring for space these days. Times change, and it's now easier to secure boxes at alternate training bases outside the metropolitan area. Just playing the devil's advocate given changing times, and more than happy to be rebuffed.
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SkyDancer
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I don’t see a problem. He has a couple of horses at Corstens stable which would otherwise sit empty.
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Carioca
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You have missed the point altogether , irrespective of mt boxes or not he really ( being of no experience at all ) should not start at the No.1 training track, you had to earn your right of passage to be their, but I don't expect you to understand.
Reply to SC above Edited by Gay3 - 01 Jul 2020 at 6:35pm |
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Bonjour
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I was a foreman at Caulfield for years SC, I had to wait, I didn't want Caulfield as to me if they allowed me onto Flemington it would be the holy grail.
Yes it's a changing world and yes we know trainers have to pay for empty boxes, but it was and always should be, a right of passage onto a metro track once you have done the hard yards. NO pre=trainer should be allowed onto a metro track.......for obvious reasons, and Denis should go to an outer track to earn his stripes......IMHO
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Bonjour
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Can I add, when I was at Flemington Leon was Barts foreman....you reckon Bart wouldn't have barked loudly if that happened then? betcha booties.
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SkyDancer
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It’s not the 80’s anymore. Times have changed
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Carioca
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Yes I know SD, and there's a couple of riders today earning big money very grateful of the fact it isn't.
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Bonjour
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And I think we are going to hear more about them shortly Carioca.
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Bonjour
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Yep, you're right on......no Weir's, Aquanita, Curries, Kavanagh's, Smith's etc back then......
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Second Chance
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Understand the feelings expressed by traditionalists.
However another "mind you" is that Flemington is no longer Victoria's premier training track. It probably rates 3rd at best behind Ballarat and Cranbourne with Pakenham at least as good. The majority of up and comers who've have done their apprenticeships simply don't want to train at Flemington nowadays. They're more interested in Ballarat, Cranbourne, Pakenham, Mornington and other venues which have all the facilities and where it's cheaper to maintain an establishment either on or off course..
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Bonjour
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That's a good synopsis SC, I have another take on it, young trainers wanting to buy a house and raise a family don't have the money to buy a family home within striking distance of Flemington.
In addition do they really want to live with the inner city elites as neighbours? The country offers horses a chance to spend their days in yards/paddocks in fresh air, good for man and beast. However, being the traditionalist I am, I would prefer to having boxes on course in a nice barn with full facilities on hand......exception.......I'm a walking machine, I absolutely detest seeing mine on a machine, hand walking them, I can't explain it, you just have to understand, and it's hard to hand walk them at Flemington. In the good old days we used to walk them down the hill behind the grandstands, along the river and sometimes around the entire course of an afternoon........it's what you did, and you loved it......all of us.....sigh.
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SkyDancer
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If you think cheating wasn’t around back then, you are deluded.
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Shawy38
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Wouldn’t want to train in the city these days.
Give me a country stable anyday. Look at the set up at Ballarat, Pakenham. Even Cranbourne. All leave the city facilities for dead.
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Bonjour
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There's cheating and there's cheating, they had smarts back then, of course we gave one a run, but nowadays these people are thick as, and full of it......
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