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Creating your own longshots

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oneonesit View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 6:09pm

G1 I will have another crack at trying to explain the inherent mathematical disadvantage of multi betting...& so by using an example. Lets assume you have a single bet & the book is set at 110%...that is there is a 10% to the house. If I now take a multi with all legs betting into markets with the same 10% edge the following %'s to the house applies ; (using formula ; house % times house % times house % (for every leg) times 100 - 100 )

1 leg...10%
2 legs..21%
3 legs..33.1%
4 legs..46.4%

Betting into a book with a 15% edge(similar to TAB W/P pools) it is even more dramatic ;

1 leg..15%
2 legs..32%
3 legs..52%
4 legs..74%

Hope this gives you some idea why multi betting gives the average punter little chance of winning long-term
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brosco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


G1 I will have another crack at trying to explain the inherent mathematical disadvantage of multi betting...& so by using an example. Lets assume you have a single bet & the book is set at 110%...that is there is a 10% to the house. If I now take a multi with all legs betting into markets with the same 10% edge the following %'s to the house applies ; (using formula ; house % times house % times house % (for every leg) times 100 - 100 )

1 leg...10%
2 legs..21%
3 legs..33.1%
4 legs..46.4%

Betting into a book with a 15% edge(similar to TAB W/P pools) it is even more dramatic ;

1 leg..15%
2 legs..32%
3 legs..52%
4 legs..74%

Hope this gives you some idea why multi betting gives the average punter little chance of winning long-term

Your mathematics show why one doesn't get the best return for the investment.  If we are going to refuse to bet when we don't get an edge, then I guess we stop punting altogether except on two-up on Anzac Day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brosco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:09pm
sorry, that came out wrong.


No edge in Two-Up, but at least there is no house take-out.  So uis this the only place to bet?

The important point is that we are stuck with bookies in any form will take a %age - we have to live with that.

The mathematics above work exactly the same with single bets.

Lets take a simple ROI example and FOLLOW closely where the bets come from.


NOW - lets say I have a $10 bet at $2.00 and it wins.  And wow - it wins and I get a return of $20.00 - but according to oneonesit I have been ripped off and should have got $21.00

That means when I have my next bet of $10 I am disadvantaged because I should have only needed to bet $9 for a far return.  The point is, the tab/bookie takeout is the same whether its a single bet or a multi.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:28pm

Brosco...my post was specifically aimed at Group 1...as he specifically asked earlier if I could explain decreased %'s that go hand in hand with multi punting. I also knew you had no "real" desire to try to understand it...a mind as flexible as a piece of redwood...so forget about my explanation & just keep doing what you want to do. If it works for you just keep doing it...! If its all about the big win & not the %'s try Lotto / Powerball / Lotteries...right up your alley I would have thought !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:36pm

& no..you just don't get it...the take out rates are much higher (number of legs dependent) with multi's vs. single bets...how often do I have to say it !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brosco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:42pm
oneonesit please try to grow up and enter an ADULT conversation.

I will try to explain it very simply for you.

Lets assume I have $10 in my betting account.

I place this on a $2.00 shot and it wins - I now have $20 in my account.

My next bet is $10 on another $2.00 shot.

The REALITY is, instead of an ALL-UP, I have just placed a HALF-UP.

The multiplication of bookie takeouts applies EXACTLY the same as in your previous post!

It aint rocket science
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 9:29pm

You are trying to compare apples with bananas Brosco....this is what you need to compare....lets have $30 in your account & say 3 selections in 3 different races ;

Scenario 1 Multi $30 on first all-up 2nd & all-up 3rd

Scenario 2 $10 on first / $10 on 2nd / $10 on 3rd - all single bets

Scenario 2 will result in a long-term better return !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brosco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


You are trying to compare apples with bananas Brosco....this is what you need to compare....lets have $30 in your account & say 3 selections in 3 different races ;

Scenario 1 Multi $30 on first all-up 2nd & all-up 3rd

Scenario 2 $10 on first / $10 on 2nd / $10 on 3rd - all single bets

Scenario 2 will result in a long-term better return !

While I understand the individual points you have made in the previous posts and somewhat agree with what you are saying however, I do no comprehend your quantum leap to the conclusion that:
Quote Scenario 2 will result in a long-term better return !

Surely the best return will be determined by Strike Rate and Price of selections.

For extreme examples:
a 100% strike rate would put Scenario 1 miles in front.

a 20% strike rate would put both scenarios losing, unless good priced selections got up.  Regardless, Scenario 2 would lose less than scenario 1.

Somewhere in between these 2 strike rates is where highest profit (or least lost) moves from scenario 1 to scenario 2.  My mathematical ability on probability theory is not strong enough to calculate the cross over point, but I would guess its around the 50% strike rate point.    However, at this point, I would suggest that parlays that include doubles (not just the Allup), Scenario 1 would be in front, and the strike rate could possibly drop to 40% to find the 'equal point'.  Again its more complicated than that, because the prices of the winning selections will affect the outcome enormously.

Now to the
Quote compare apples with bananas
the logic here totally eludes me.
You make a big point that in an allup, the bookie takeout is compounded with each leg.  (absolutely no argument there).  But how is this any different to ANY turnaround of the balance in my account?  My account balance has little to do with my initial deposit - it is based on turning around my winning bet dividends and placing more bets from the balance (after more bookie takeouts).  How is that any different to an allup -  i use money that has had a bookie takeout, and if it wins, use that to place a subsequent bet (which incurs a subsequent bookie takeout (assuming it wins).  The same 'law of diminishing returns' that oneonesit says will lead to my downfall,  therefore applies to ALL punters.

So while i can understand oneonesit's individual points - I have no comprehension of his quantum leaps to totally unrelated conclusions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


You are trying to compare apples with bananas Brosco....this is what you need to compare....lets have $30 in your account & say 3 selections in 3 different races ;

Scenario 1 Multi $30 on first all-up 2nd & all-up 3rd

Scenario 2 $10 on first / $10 on 2nd / $10 on 3rd - all single bets

Scenario 2 will result in a long-term better return !


completely different bets .

say odds are $5, take out 15%

$10 on each race if all successful returns 3 times $42.50 = $127.50
$30 all up with same odds and takeout returns $$2303
$10 all up returns  $767

I think you have your apples and banans mixed up oneone
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 8:53am
Villagebet identified Samadoubt as a Lucky Longshot at Randwick yesterday. Won the Winx Stakes at $41.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 1:32pm
Anyone got one for today?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 2:16pm
Check the Rough as Gutz thread.
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mayor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2020 at 2:21pm

We have an article on villagebet.com.au for those interested in betting on longshots:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2020 at 3:39pm
It is seemingly a necessary, but not sufficient condition, to be backing longshots, that they shorten, or at least remain steady in the market. 
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