Go to Villagebet.com.au for free horse racing tips - Click here now |
|
Coolmore Fees 20/21/22/23 |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51994 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 5:28pm |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sister Dot
Premium Joined: 25 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
“Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride, friendship without envy, or beauty without vanity? Here where grace is laced with muscle and strength by gentleness confined”
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Very surprised Adelaide still on roster
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
acacia alba
Champion Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41480 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I suppose they have to have one bargain basement buy on the roster ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
animals before people.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wooten Bassett is attractively priced, especially given the success Iffraaj had in New Zealand.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
They have So You Think 5th on the sires list with Fastnet Rock just behind him in 6th spot. Both have had stellar years. While Pierro is at present running 10th.
Just saying maybe So You Think is the bargin on that list.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I submit based on his 2020 and 2021 sales figures that at $55,000, So You Think was very well-priced, with 2020 median sales figures of $150k being about 3x his fee. Even with the market disruption in 2021, at $55k most breeders would have made a profit. At $77k, he's a good-value upper-echelon stallion but not a bargain. Wooten Bassett is in that same category. For all that Pierro is a good sire, he was good-value at about the same level ($77k-$80k) but hasn't justified being over $100k this season. Pride of Dubai may well be the value sire on that list. Second on the second-crop sires list, more SWs than anyone else in his crop this year, 44% winners to runners, big fee drop to $22,000. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
acacia alba
Champion Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41480 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Can one of you help me PLEASE ? Slightly off the subject but it is Coolmore. Please give me the name of that good old horse they had at Jerry,s Plains early on, who retired there . The fellow who won the Breeders Cup for O'Brien , with Lester up ? Its driving me nuts trying to think of it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
animals before people.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Red Hare
Champion Joined: 12 Jan 2015 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 4233 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Royal Academy?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
acacia alba
Champion Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41480 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Thank You Thank YouThank You. Been trying to recall his name for 2 days now and it just would not come. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
animals before people.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Red Hare
Champion Joined: 12 Jan 2015 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 4233 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Where do they go if the two triple crown winners don't fly out of the gates? The list is a 90% rebuild as it is.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Online Points: 45721 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
He had to come down imo, though maybe to $27,500.
Why? Because he served two very large, well credentialed books in his first seasons but whilst siring a good number of winners the four stakes-winners he's sired are all quite limited. Has an AEI of just 1.03 which is quite ordinary, and his stock didn't sell all that well this season. All things said and done the 2nd crop sires are apart from maybe three or four a very ordinary lot imo. But all that said he still appears value at $22k, and have my eye on one at the Gold Sale starting in a few days.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51994 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Fastnet Rock holds top billing at $165,000. Home Affairs set at a fee of $110,000 in his first season. St Mark’s Basilica ($44,000) and Acrobat ($13,750).
Other notables on the Coolmore roster include Pierro ($99,000), So You Think ($93,500), Justify ($55,000), Yes Yes Yes ($38,500) and American Pharaoh ($49,500). |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I wonder what the purpose is of pricing Home Affairs so highly ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
reductio ad absurdum
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
goldey
Champion Joined: 29 Dec 2012 Location: cairns Status: Offline Points: 5940 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
St Marks Basilica, is my top choice for value for money .
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Djebel, So You Think surely they can't Justify that fee on Home Affairs? No Nay Never!
(Yay coffee and bad puns!)
Home Affairs is standing at less than half of his sire's 2022 fee and Coolmore are positioning him to take well-performed mares who otherwise might have tried for Vinnie's book. His close relative Russian Revolution is currently first on the first-season sire's list, which helps. Getting a little bit further into the weeds, in terms of who is his main competition in the market, it's the Newgate trio of Capitalist, Deep Field, and Stay Inside at 99k, 88k, and 77k, respectively. (Maurice, Pierro, So You Think, Toronado, and Wootten Bassett are aiming for the classic horse section of the market, not the early speedball market section.) Among them, Home Affairs is the only dual Gr-1 winner, the only one to win an open WFA Gr-1 race, and he is arguably the best-bred. So, yes, super aggressive, but at the same time I can see their justification. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
brave_ponies
Champion Joined: 06 Sep 2013 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 3270 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Your knowledge and readability is a goldmine, KM.
And I love your bad puns with my (2nd) coffee
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I agree with KM that Home Affairs has a cream of the crop pedigree. But Coolmore has had two other first seasons stallions (both shuttle one from England and the second from USA). Neither really performed at stud in Australia. Lets hope Home Affairs can stand up for the home grown stallion and make good.
But I find anything above $50,000 for the best first season stallion really too much. We have a smaller population of mares being served now. The big boys like I am Invincible and Snitzel and others without there record but seen as a chance at a cheaper rate serve well of 150 mares a season. Now I know Home Affairs was bought as a yearling for $875K so he wasn't a buy and syndicate by the stud - although he probably is syndicated (more money for them). He won over $2,000,000. Now say he serves 150 mares that is another $16,500,000. Now if he was a stallion which the stud bought as an older racehorse that wouldn't cover their costs, but this boy is a gold mine for the stud and they could of put him in at a lower rate to help the mare owners have some of that also. Not every mare is going to foal the perfect type and while the market was strong this season - if interest rates are going up will that continue?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
There is a cluster of proven classic-distance sires between $80k - $100k, including Toronado, Maurice, Shamus Award, and Savabeel. Pierro and So You Think are on the high end of that group, which, you know, okay. Wootten Bassett is priced attractively for an entry into the AUS market of a stallion with his credentials, and Fastnet Rock has long since earned a fee at that level. I'm not sure if pricing St. Mark's Basilica at $44k when his half-brother is standing at less than $20k is a vote of confidence for SMB or a no-confidence vote against Magna Grecia. Invincible Spirit has been a quality sire of sires so far, while Siyouni doesn't have any sons whose foals are racing yet. But then there's American Pharoah, who is somehow priced higher than St Mark's Basilica and is almost 3 times the fee of Pride of Dubai. Are people betting that they'll get better as they age? Both So You Think and Pierro were at the top of the 1st and 2nd season sires list in their respective years, not 10th....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Would be intertesting to know Coolmore and their partners overheads. They need to capitalise on any horses that succeed and this one they seem to be hanging their hat on. How much did Fusaichi Pegasus, American Pharoah and Justify cost off the track ? They seem to spend a lot of money and it seems make a lot of money.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
reductio ad absurdum
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If he's syndicated and has 50 shareholders, then for serving 150 mares then at least 50 of those covers will not bring in a fee. If the shareholders each send him 2 mares, then at most 50 covers will bring in a fee. I'll split the difference and assume that 75 are shareholder mares, 75 are outside mares, and 90% will be in foal after 9 months (misses, slipped, aborted) = 68 each for shareholders and outside = just under $7.5M. That's still a lot of money, but IMO closer to the mark.
Not to put too fine a point on it, the mare owners who were looking at sending a mare to Snitzel or Vinnie at $220k or $245k are going to be the kind who have that level of money to throw around anyway, and if they get a less than perfect yearling that "only" sells for $150k, well, they shrug and point to its million-dollar paddock mate who carries the torch for the whole farm. They're not going to bat an eye at a horse half that fee. From Coolmore's POV, getting cash in the door while there's cash to be had is a significant goal and they have done exactly that in the past. In North America in 2006, when the market was super hot, they raised Giant's Causeway's fee to US $300k and I think Fu Peg stood for something outlandish like $85k that year. I do agree with you that we're likely to have a significant market correction in the next 2-3 years. Between interest rates rising, the continuing fallout of Covid and a war with global economic effects (no more Russian billionaires buying fancy horses and the Chinese real estate bubble is starting to burst), it's unlikely that the market for a luxury item will remain at this level. Which, going back to Coolmore, is all the more incentive to price him high whilst they can. I also agree with you that paying that much for an unproven stallion is gambling the farm for a chance to buy the neighbours out.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Yes I do get to emotive sometimes. But I can see some issues coming and we probably need to be ahead and not behind the times.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(2)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Djebel, you asked for it... I have a maths degree and I love the chance to use it. Numbers are from Googling, Bloodhorse (USA), US stud book, AUS stud book, and the assumptions that I lay out below. US $23.5M for American Pharoah https://www.paulickreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/6d59c7d8-e83d-4377-bcf6-044c987f655a.pdf Justify was sold for US $75M: https://www.businessinsider.com/justify-breeding-rights-75-million-triple-crown-2018-6 So they spent a lot of money, but are they making money? Justify's stud fee in North America was US $150K for his first two seasons at stud and US $125k for his 3rd season. Fees are paid out on live foal basis, not on numbers bred. In 2019 he covered 252 mares for 180 live foals, 2020 222 mares for 174 live foals, and in 2021 167 mares with an estimated 125 live foals. Assuming 75 shareholder mares each year (same as previous assumption) and an average of 72.5% live foal rate, that's 56 shareholder mares each year. Then that gives us 124 foals from outside mares bred in 2019, 118 foals from outside mares bred in 2020, and estimated 69 foals from outside mares in 2021. 124 + 118 + 69 = 311 foals from outside mares. For just the northern hemisphere, assuming my estimates are valid and every outside mare paid full price, that's US 44.925 M over 3 years. If I assume 50 shareholder mares and the same live foal %, then that's 38 live shareholder foals per season, which in turn gives us 365 foals from outside mares. Under these assumptions, that's US $52.575 M in fees over 3 years. I can't do the exact same calculation for his Australian crops because he was listed as private for his first season at stud. For simplicity, I'll hold his 2021 fee of AUS $55k constant. He covered 291 mares in his first two Southern Hemisphere seasons. If I assume the same live foal % (72.5%, average of his NH crops), and 50 shareholder mares each season (37 live shareholder foals each season), that's 145 live foals. That's a 2-year total of AU$7.975 M, which at today's exchange rate is US $5.673M. So, at a very rough estimate and assuming 50 shareholder mares, Justify has so far recouped a little over US $58 M in fees. Yearling sales prices are kind of tricky, because there's a cost associated with depreciation of the mare's breeding value as well as the cost of mare care and raising the foal to the point of sale. Plus, for sales in the USA or Canada, Coolmore uses agents and I can't just google who they are like I can for his Australian foals. Anyway, Justify's yearlings sold by Coolmore in 2022 at Inglis Easter and MM Gold Cost totaled AUS $8.225M = US $5.85 M. If half of that is overhead (mare value, mare care, foal care), then that's US $2.95 M. Call it US $3 M, and the total income from this horse would be US $61 M. Coolmore/syndicate would need to sell US $28 M of yearlings they own to break even under these assumptions to get the US $14M they need to recoup the payment cost. So, in theory it's possible that they've recouped their outlay, but I suspect that they're short at least a few million. I note that they're not offering a fancy-pants sports car for people to buy a SYT, Pierro, or Fastnet yearling... |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Can we go a step further ?
Approxiamately how much would shareholders be paying for a share ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
reductio ad absurdum
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Now that I've written a short masters thesis on very shaky assumptions, back to Home Affairs.
He's already recouped his purchase price and training bills and then some. Pricing him aggressively is a way to pick off mares who might have gone to Vinnie or Snitzel or perhaps even Written Tycoon, but it could also be a way to get cash to finish paying off Justify before his first 2 crops are done running. All that said, if you have a horse that is paid off by the end of the 3rd season at stud, and that horse hits it big, that's a license to print money. Galileo and Deep Impact were the uber-examples in Europe and Japan, Into Mischief meets that definition in North America, and Vinnie and Fastnet are good examples in Australia. That's how the Coolmores and Darleys and Shadais of the world can afford to play big, but since you can't make money to pay off the syndication cost by schtuping yourself (aka shareholder mares), it turns into an arms race between mare owners (who don't want to be left holding the bag if the horse flops) and stallion owners.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't know how many shareholders there are, so unlike my educated assumptions, this is pure guesstimate. If the purchase price is US $75M and there's a 5% syndication markup, that's US $78.75 M. If there are 50 shareholders, that's about US $1.6M per share. A 20 person syndicate would cost about US $4M per share. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. That cost doesn't include taxes, insurance, vet bills, or any fees the farm might charge. Nor does it include the cost of mares that shareholders would be expected to send to support their product.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51994 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
What a super thread this has turned into
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kimberley Mine
Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Welcome to Kim's Big Hole Beer Hall. Come for the pedigree discussion, stay for the market analysis and bad jokes.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Online Points: 31420 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pro tip - Google "Lester Piggott", go to wikipedia entry, Find in page Ctrl+F for the word Breeder's. There is only one. Breeder's Cup Mile 1990.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
acacia alba
Champion Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41480 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Holy Dooley Tlaz. That was a year ago !!!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
animals before people.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |