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Australia's Whip Rules |
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31290 |
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Me neither. I'd like to see it though. Anybody got a video of the whip being used for safety reasons in a race? Maybe it's subtle and only visible to the trained eye, djebel.
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Yep yep, Possibly, Yep.
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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I've googled this and all I find is Super Bowl stuff.
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reductio ad absurdum
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max manewer
Champion Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 32947 |
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It would be circa 1965 djebel !
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45319 |
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We had one debut recently, thick as a brick.
Hit the lead with 200m to go, thought he'd done his job and attempted to ease. Just one smack behind and he found plenty to win by over two lengths, no slap and he gets done. Presumably will require no more than one slap next time given the message got home the first time around. FWIW.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21698 |
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No doubt you would djebel, first you quote an American jockey and now super bowl stuffplease don't go there as there is nothing we can learn in racing from them.
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Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
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djebel, Bowl King was a very good horse trained by Tony Lopes. Down the straight six at Flemington was detestating but around Caulfield in Lightning Stks and MV was mad, trying to run off on turn. Carioca, could you make a note of similar behaviour in other horses. Another I remember was Kingston Town around Caulfield. I’m sure there are many others of lesser ability that tested the ability of a jockey with their erratic behaviour. Sometimes that erratic behaviour could be curbed by the whip, sometimes not. Can be an advantage if jockey uses the whip diligently If he knows what he is doing.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21698 |
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Yes I do remember Bowl King majestic , even watched his dam race when I lived in Sydney , Doubtless was her name ( pretty sure) by the French first season sire Pan11, she was small but sturdy and talented, he was a notorious hanger BK and slip up outside him on a turn at your peril, Pablo Star was another that hung badly , also the brilliant Adelaide sprinter Manihi ( sire of Manikato) it was habit forming of these horses to hang and the discipline to correct them was futile ( sit quiet and kid to them) a Peter Cook style and one of the best.
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51818 |
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Casterton R 8 won by a nostril at $150/1
Glad I didn't back the 2nd horse
Nahanni Prior to declaration of Correct Weight Stewards identified that there appeared to be a breach of AR 132(7)(a)(ii) however declined their option of exercising their rights to lodge an objection on behalf of the second placed Felix Bay. At a subsequent inquiry rider L Williams pleaded guilty to a charge under the provisions of AR 132(7)(a)(ii) in that he used his whip on nine occasions prior to the 100m, which is four more occasions than permitted. The licence of L Williams to ride in races was suspended for one calendar month commencing midnight 5 July 2020 and concluding midnight 5 August 2020. L Williams was further fined $750. In assessing penalty Stewards took into account his guilty plea, poor record, the totality of his whip use and the fact Nahanni won the race. L Williams will be referred to the Racing Victoria Riders Skills Panel. |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51818 |
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Racing Victoria lobby to outlaw whip useRacing Victoria wants to outlaw whip use on horses other than for safety purposes in a bold push for reform on racing’s most contentious welfare issue. “RV is of the view that a new framework is required to transition the industry to an ultimate prohibition on use of the whip for purposes other than to protect the safety of horses and jockeys,” an RV spokesman said. Recent penalty changes to whip abuses have not materially affected jockey behaviour, promping RV to seek a vote at November’s Racing Australia board meeting that “the transition commences with a significant reduction in the permitted use of the whip in a race.” “RV will propose that, from 1 January 2021, riders are only permitted to use the whip on a maximum number of occasions throughout the entire race and never in a horse’s consecutive strides,” RV said. “RV is proposing that the maximum number (of strikes) be between five and eight occasions per race.” Current Australian Rules of Racing permit the use of the whip a maximum of five times in non-consecutive strides prior to the 100m mark. But the number of strikes in the final 100m of a race is left to rider discretion, where whip use in consecutive strides is permitted with strikes of sometimes up to 12 or more. RV chief executive Giles Thompson and leading owner Lloyd Williams are alarmed at the damage being caused in the wider community by flagrant whip breaches. “As industry leaders, we are charged with not only managing the sport today but ensuring that it remains vibrant and successful for generations to come,” Thompson said. “Making progress on whip reform is important if we want to retain our existing audiences and ensure that we’re an attractive option for the fans and employees of tomorrow. “It is Racing Victoria’s view that progress on whip reform is needed now, and that the industry nationally, acting in its best long-term interests, should continue to work towards a prohibition on the use of the whip for purposes other than to protect the safety of horses and jockeys. “It is critical that jockeys are permitted to carry a whip to ensure their safety and jockey safety is something that we will always advocate. “We want to reduce the number of times the whip can be used in Victorian racing, and indeed nationally, from 2021. “This would be an important step in the right direction for our industry, one that recognises the progression of community attitudes in the decade since padded whips were first introduced. “Britain, Ireland, France, Germany and key states in the USA have either implemented or announced significant reductions in permitted whip use and have seen great competitive racing continue. “At this time Australian racing has been left behind when it comes to reforms on whip use. “The industry will always be best served by a national approach to whip reform and this is something that we desire, however to this point that has not been achievable. “We believe that prompt progress on whip reform is in the best interests of Australian racing and we are encouraging the Racing Australia Board and other states to join us in making meaningful steps this year. “In doing so, we will be consulting with our key stakeholder groups over the coming months on the implementation of specific rules that would see important whip reform achieved through a reduction in the permitted number of occasions that it can be used in a race.” Williams has urged Australian authorities to lead the way on whip reform. Major international jurisdictions – Ireland (eight times per race), Great Britain, US (Kentucky and California, six), Germany and France (both five) – have announced reductions in legal whip strikes. RV believes the current national whip rules are no longer appropriate and not in the best interests of Victorian and Australian racing, both now and in the long-term. In calling for whip reform, RV believes jockeys should be permitted to continue to carry whips at all times, but that the industry should be working towards a framework where whip use is only permitted in circumstances necessary to protect the safety of riders and horses. RV tabled its view with RA Australia in February 2020 that changes to the national whip rules are essential for the future of Victorian and Australian racing. RV said “if national consensus on an amendment to the Australian Rules of Racing cannot be reached, RV will explore alternative approaches to achieve meaningful progress on whip reform.” “The use of the whip in thoroughbred racing has long been a cause for debate both within the industry and the broader community. “RV remains of the view that padded whips do not constitute a risk to equine welfare, however it is clear that their ongoing use is becoming less compatible with community expectations each year.” |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Straight arrow
Champion Joined: 01 Dec 2018 Status: Offline Points: 1026 |
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Jockeys were badly advised from the get go by there representatives!
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TJMitchell
Champion Joined: 29 Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 16890 |
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Sounds like RV hasn't spoken to anyone of importance. Jockeys or Trainers.
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Time is a flat circle
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Straight arrow
Champion Joined: 01 Dec 2018 Status: Offline Points: 1026 |
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Unfettered use of whip over last 100 mtr? Jockeys have had years to get rid of that ridiculous part of whip use. How’s does that help or appease anyone?
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troppo75
Champion Joined: 10 Jun 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1438 |
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Theres a saying floating around...
Get woke.. Go Broke its been shown so often... try to appease the PC crowd... the left, the greens etc... and your business loses support. How can punters bet with confidence if the horse they select is sluggish to get into a race? Do such horses then get 'retired'? It opens too many cans of worms... all in the aim of seeming hip to whats going on in the world? |
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Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51818 |
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When Britain, Ireland, France, Germany and
key states in the USA have either implemented or announced significant
reductions in permitted whip use and have seen great competitive racing
continue it's a formality Australia will follow suit. The only question is when
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45319 |
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The devil's in the detail.
When interviewed earlier today Robbie Griffiths said that whilst there'd been continuing discussions between trainer and jockey associations with the VRC no specific course of action had been agreed upon. And that he as President of the ATA (Vic) and other industry organisations had been totally blindsided by the unilateral VRC announcement. Irrespective of where people stand on this matter it's very far from over irrespective of the VRC announcement. |
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51818 |
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Get Your Head Out of the Sand You Dinosaurs – This is the Truth About the Whip and Jockey SafetyOvrevoll, NORWAY–The Norwegian Jockey Club on Thursday played host at Ovrevoll Racecourse to a gathering of industry leaders from all over the globe, with the European and Mediterranean Horseracing Federation (EMHF) holding its annual General Assembly there, along with an International Forum of the Aftercare of Racehorses (IFAR) conference that followed. Of keen interest to many attendees was a presentation that Hans Petter Eriksen, former director of the Norwegian Jockey Club, gave concerning the country’s novel approach to one of racing’s currently thorniest issues: that jockeys are permitted to carry a cushioned whip, no longer than 70 centimeters, in 2-year-old races and hurdle races, and can only use it to avoid dangerous situations. Both of the jockey’s hands, the rules stipulate, must be on the reins at all times. For flat horses three and older, the jockeys weigh out without the whip. Eriksen chronicled the timeline of the evolving whip rule, beginning in 1986 when the Norwegian minister of agriculture first demanded a whip prohibition in both Thoroughbred and trotting races. An initial compromise led to the adoption in 2009 of the rules that are in place today. Eriksen stands by Norway’s strict penalties–jockeys that violate the rules face possible disqualification. “Today, in most countries the winning horse and rider would keep the race, even if the jockey breaks the whip rules. The consequences usually are a suspension and a fine,” he said. “To me, this is not fair.” Eriksen said that in 30 years, “there have been no accidents resulting from jockeys not being able to carry a whip,” while 30% of races are won by favourites–a comparable statistic, he said, to whip-carrying jurisdictions. What’s more, “there’s less interferences–an easier job for the stewards,” he said. “We’ve never had any complaints from the punters,” Eriksen added. “The best horse can win the race, even without the whip.” Word from the horsemen, he said, is that horses were happier, too, with a healthier appetite after a race. A member of the audience asked whether the problem isn’t the
instrument itself but a lack of education about the modern cushioned
whip when compared to the much harsher sticks of before. He described
the issue of the whip as a 19th century word in a 21st century
environment. Edited by Gay3 - 10 Sep 2020 at 3:36pm |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31290 |
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Pretty stupid isn't it if it's PR is a major factor. Don't use the whip, it's a bad look ... until you get nice and close to your audience then go he'll for leather.
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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Straight arrow
Champion Joined: 01 Dec 2018 Status: Offline Points: 1026 |
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There is no use for the whip argument with safety in a race. Never seen any were a whip has been used for a horse race for safety! Yes plenty of times in mounting yard and going to barriers and behind barriers and at track work! A WHIP IS A Must to be carried and used down shoulders! Even to be used occasionally in a race ! But over whipping is just not part of the sport! Good jockeys don’t need them. Only problem? The better riders will control the sport! Fact
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17253 |
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Swan Hill Race 2 proves the rule is a complete joke!
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rusty nails
Champion Joined: 20 Mar 2013 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 11301 |
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Farce!!!!!
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45319 |
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See the Vella team won a later race too, by 0.2l.
Was the winner also flogged in contravention of the rules, and/or did the connections of the 2nd place-getter decline to protest given the message clearly sent by Stewards following dismissal of the earlier protest?
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17253 |
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Yesmeena - 2nd placegetter. Prior to correct weight rider apprentice Teodore Nugent lodged an objection against Yoshi Mokuyo (winning margin a neck) being declared the winner on the grounds of excessive whip use by rider Steven Vella. After taking evidence from all parties it was established that Steven Vella used his whip on 8 occasions prior to the 100m and approximately 13 occasions in total. As the totality of his whip use was under 16 strikes and as the RV Whip Penalty Guidelines relating to the totality component of AR132(7)(a)(ii) indicates, this total whip use is not determined to be an actionable breach. Stewards therefore dismissed the objection. At a later inquiry Stewards spoke advisably with Rider Steven Vella regarding his whip use and riding style. Whilst as aforementioned, it was determined that he had used his whip on 8 occasions prior to the 100m and approximately 13 in total (which under the current RV Whip Penalty Guidelines does not constitute an actionable breach), they nonetheless advised him that he must reassess his riding style when riding his mounts out. In particular when waving the whip, which gives the impression he is making contact with his mounts, when this is not the case. S Vella concurred with the Stewards assessment and advised he would make a concerted effort to address this area of his riding style. |
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17253 |
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But yet R3
Jarrod Lorensini (Whos Your Papy) 2nd placegetter Pleaded guilty to a charge under the provisions of AR132(7)(a)(ii) for using his whip two times more than permitted prior to the 100m. Jarrod Lorensinis licence to ride in races was suspended for a period to commence at midnight 2 November 2020 and to expire at midnight 8 November 2020. (7 meetings, 3 metropolitan, 4 provincial). In assessing penalty Stewards took into account his guilty plea, excellent record (no breaches within the last 12 months), and the totality of his whip use (17 strikes in total). |
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TJMitchell
Champion Joined: 29 Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 16890 |
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How does this make sense?
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Time is a flat circle
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51818 |
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Lorensinis strikes totalled 17 or 1 over the 16 determined to be an actionable breach
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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pnclick
Champion Joined: 13 Mar 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Strange rule... Unfortunately, may I say, both Jason and Stevie are great guys, probably a bit old school re there action in riding.
Stevie is very 'wavy' with the whip, he appears to like to wave the whip, whether he strikes the horse is another thing. However, I noticed he seemed to strike the horse (Race 2 for sure) in front of the saddle over the concluding stages. Is that allowed?? I thought it wasn't, others could probably provide more information.... |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Jockeys get no benefit from using a whip in horse racing, landmark study findsThe findings come as Racing Victoria leads a push for Australia to limit how many times a rider can whip their horse during a race There is no benefit to jockeys using a whip in horse racing, according to a world-first study that found there was no difference in race times and rider safety between races where whipping is permitted and apprentice races that ban the use of whips. The study is a boon to Racing Victoria, which is calling for whips to be phased out. It is seeking a vote at Racing Australia next month to introduce new rules that, if adopted, would limit the number of times a rider was allowed to whip their horse per race. The proposed reform would bring Australia into line with the United Kingdom, Ireland, Germany, France and parts of the United States. But it is opposed by Racing New South Wales, with its chief executive, Peter V’landys, accusing the Victorian association of “grandstanding” for “cheap publicity”. The study, led by the University of South Australia’s Dr Kirrilly Thompson and co-authored by the University of Sydney’s Paul McGreevy, examined the stewards reports from 126 races in the UK, including 67 “hands and heels” races ridden by apprentice jockeys who are allowed to carry, but not use, the whip. All of the races were run on the same track and whip-free races were matched by track conditions, field size and race class with a whipping permitted race. The stewards reports were then analysed for movement on course, interference and jockey behaviour. “And lo and behold we found there was no statistically significant difference. In short, what that tells us is that whipping doesn’t work,” Thompson said. “At least, whipping doesn’t work for the things that we thought it did.” The racing industry has long argued that whips are necessary as a safety aid, because they can help a jockey with steering. There is also a belief – both in the racing community and among punters – that they make horses run faster. “We looked at the finishing times of the races and there was no statistically significant difference there either,” Thompson said. “So really we can’t find anything to recommend the use of whips.” Thompson said the research should reassure punters who were concerned that by not using the whip riders were not getting the best possible performance out of a horse. “Hands and heels” races are a fixture in the UK, and a rule limiting the use of the whip on flat and jumps races was introduced in 2011. Whip use was also prohibited for senior jockeys in the new £1.8m Racing League, which launched this year. Thompson said comparing “hands and heels” races to regular races was the closest researchers could get to performing a blind experiment on whip use. She said the results should translate to Australia but that if Racing Australia were to introduce whip-free races for apprentices, a similar study could be conducted here. The RSPCA has also backed the introduction of hands and heels races. The changes proposed by Racing Victoria are that, from 1 January, jockeys would only be allowed to use the whip on a maximum number of occasions – between five and eight – throughout the entire race and never in consecutive strides. Jockeys would be allowed to continue to carry the whip but they should only be used when necessary to protect the safety of horses and riders. The Australian Rules of Racing currently permit riders to use the whip a maximum of five times on non-consecutive strides throughout most of the race, but for the final 100 metres the limit is lifted to “at the riders’ discretion”. In a public statement in September, Racing Victoria said “the current national whip rules are no longer appropriate and not in the best interests of Victorian and Australian racing, both now and in the long-term”. It said racing in Australia was lagging behind international standards, and risked alienating its audience. “Making progress on whip reform is important if we want to retain our existing audiences and ensure that we’re an attractive option for the fans and employees of tomorrow,” the Racing Victoria CEO, Giles Thompson, said. But the proposed rule change seems unlikely to gain national support. Under Racing Australia’s rules, any change of rules requires a national consensus. Racing Victoria has indicated it will look at going it alone if the reform is not passed. V’landys criticised Racing Victoria for making its position public ahead of the meeting, telling Racenet that NSW was not interested in a public debate. “They can grandstand and look for cheap publicity all they like, but we’ll follow proper corporate governance and express ourselves at the meeting like they should be,” he said. The RSPCA Australia chief scientist, Dr Bidda Jones, said the public no longer supported the use of whips. A poll commissioned by RSPCA Victoria found that 69% of Victorians think horses should not be whipped in the normal course of the race, and 71% who do attend racing and place bets would continue to do so if whips were banned. “Now we know that not only are whips unpopular, they’re also unnecessary as they don’t appear to affect the actual race,” Jones said. “In other words, the whip can no longer be defended as a tool for racing speed, integrity or safety.” sport/2020/oct/30/jockeys-get-no-benefit-from-using-a-whip-in-horse-racing-landmark-study-finds |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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http://https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/11/1985/htm
The link above takes you to the fully published study. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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