All Too Hard

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   Fair points KM. Agree that as a sire of sires Lonhro has the points over Casino Prince, both volume and quality. But, take Pierro out of the equation and I would say Flying Spur has him covered. AND there's no doubt that Flying Spur has Occy covered in that department.
All up, I think that when it comes to the perception of success, the difference between ATH and Pierro is a matter of sales & marketing.

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Red Hare Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Champion Joined: 12 Jan 2015 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 4233	Post Options Post Reply Quote Red Hare Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Mar 2020 at 2:49pm
	Fair points KM. Agree that as a sire of sires Lonhro has the points over Casino Prince, both volume and quality. But, take Pierro out of the equation and I would say Flying Spur has him covered. AND there's no doubt that Flying Spur has Occy covered in that department. All up, I think that when it comes to the perception of success, the difference between ATH and Pierro is a matter of sales & marketing.

Second Chance Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Online Points: 56831	Post Options Post Reply Quote Second Chance Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Mar 2020 at 3:13pm
	Pierro and All Too Hard both retired to stud 2013. Foals Foals stakes Gp 1 stakes Position on sires Initial Current progeny 2yo + winners winners list last 3 seasons stud fee stud fee earnings Pierro 482 19 6 12, 10, 3 $77k $88k @$31m ATH 542 13 1 34, 19, 8 $66k $27.5k @$19m

Kimberley Mine Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Champion Joined: 01 Oct 2013 Status: Offline Points: 1522	Post Options Post Reply Quote Kimberley Mine Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 2020 at 8:10am
	Out of curiosity, I looked up the number of horses with 5 or more wins in AUS/NZ for both Pierro and ATH -- they're about equal. Pierro has 16 and All Too Hard 17. Those are the horses that are both sound and competitive at a good-enough level to be worth keeping them in training. (With Furore, they're equal.) Taking away the top earner of each one, though, and things change...5-win Pierro horses minus Pierata have an average earnings of $514k and median of $254k. The lowest-earning horse in the group made over $100k. The 5-win ATH horses minus Alligator Blood have average earnings of $395k and median earnings of $226, and the lowest-earning horse in that group earned just shy of $73k. The difference in median earnings is about equivalent to the winner's purse of a Wednesday benchmark race at Randwick or Flemington. So, between that and the difference number of both total stakes winners and graded stakes winners, I wouldn't say that the difference between them is "just" perception and marketing. Just for fun, I did So You Think too. He has 22 horses in AUS/NZ with 5 or more wins, for average of that group (w/o Care to Think) of $262k and median $177k. The lowest earner in the group made about $79k. At a fee of $38,500 compared to ATH at $27,500 -- I'd say that So You Think is the one who is riding on perception and marketing.

Red Hare Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Champion Joined: 12 Jan 2015 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 4233	Post Options Post Reply Quote Red Hare Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 2020 at 3:09pm
	Great numbers again KM. Really good way of looking at things. When I'm referring to sales and marketing, i'm not talking about advertising and pub talk. Rather, I mean the farm's ability to find and attract the right mares to will improve his score. Some shops are just heavier hitters than others in that arena. That's not to say that the Vinery ownership group doesn't have any muscle, it's just that global Coolmore is in a different league.