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2019 Melbourne Cup

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Lord Hybrow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord Hybrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 10:24am
Noticed that a horse called Gold Mount won the Grand Cup (Listed, 2787m) at York overnight & is being aimed st the Melb Cup, via the Ebor Hcp.

Interesting to look at horses that have run in this Listed race ovet the past few years includes the likes of Marmelo, Cavalryman, Dal Harraild, Nakeeta & Quest for More.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 10:29am
Posted this in other thread but I'll put here too.

We sourced Gold Mount for the current owner after his Ascot win and I always thought he would make a good cups horse. Got in contact with Ladbrokes yesterday morning and asked them for a price for him for the Cup. They gave me 126s which I quickly boosted to 151s and took. He is currently 51s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 1:29am
Would be great for Cross Counter to come for the Cup again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 1:52am
Am hoping Cross Counter returns for the Melbourne Cup. By him not winning the Ascot Gold Cup and only running 4th...the door is certainly open to return. Should only get 56kg to 56.5kg, that's a winnable weight for a horse of his calibre.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 7:12am
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Posted this in other thread but I'll put here too.

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">We sourced Gold Mount for the current owner after his Ascot win and I always thought he would make a good cups horse. Got in contact with Ladbrokes yesterday morning and asked them for a price for him for the Cup. They gave me 126s which I quickly boosted to 151s and took. He is currently 51s.</span>



Good shopping TJ. Into $26 with the TAB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:19pm


MELBOURNE CUP
Melbourne Cup weights: It's now harder for Europeans to win

Cross Counter winning the 2018 Melbourne Cup. Photo: Darryl Sherer

Article Author

Ben Dorries1:27PM, 21 June 2019

After rolling out the Melbourne Cup red carpet for international raiders for many years, Victorian officials are now making it harder for northern hemisphere three-year-olds to win the great race.

Racing Victoria's Executive General Manager of Racing Greg Carpenter has revealed an “extensive and exhaustive review” means northern hemisphere three-year-olds will “automatically be more highly weighted (in the Melbourne Cup) in 2019.”

Joseph O’Brien and Charlie Appleby have hit upon a winning formula with the past two Melbourne Cup winners Rekindling and Cross Counter, both European three-year-olds when they won the famous handicap in 2017 and 2018.

Rekindling carried 51.5kg while last year’s winner Cross Counter carried 51kg.

But Carpenter says those results have forced a rethink.

“We have done an extensive and exhaustive review of the weight-for-age scale in Europe and in Australia,” Carpenter told ABC Radio.

“Victoria Racing Club and the Melbourne Racing Club, with the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups this year, have actually altered the benchmark weight for these northern hemisphere three-year-olds.

“So they will actually automatically be more highly weighted in 2019.

“I need to have a look at the success rate of these horses now and make a judgment on – other than the implementation of a higher weight-for-age weight for them – whether or not their form also needs additional weight.

“We don’t stand still when we provide the handicaps for the Melbourne Cup, it's an evolving art, but certainly on the results of the last two years with Rekindling and Cross Counter there has been a review and a change to the way we treat northern hemisphere three-year-olds in the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups going forward.”

Carpenter told the ABC it could also impact the entire Australian racing industry and they way it treats European three-year-olds.

“We have put forward a proposal to Racing Australia to change the allowances under the Australian Rules Of Racing and the weight-for-age scale so that northern hemisphere three-year-olds are not more generously treated here in Australia than they would be if they were actually racing on the same day over the same distance in Europe,” he said.

Related Topics: Melbourne CupMelbourne Cup 2019 Greg Carpenter

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:21pm
Can anybody decipher this ?

MELBOURNE CUP

Melbourne Cup weights: It's now harder for Europeans to win

Ben Dorries

After rolling out the Melbourne Cup red carpet for international raiders for many years, Victorian officials are now making it harder for northern hemisphere three-year-olds to win the great race.

Racing Victoria's Executive General Manager of Racing Greg Carpenter has revealed an “extensive and exhaustive review” means northern hemisphere three-year-olds will “automatically be more highly weighted (in the Melbourne Cup) in 2019.”

Joseph O’Brien and Charlie Appleby have hit upon a winning formula with the past two Melbourne Cup winners Rekindling and Cross Counter, both European three-year-olds when they won the famous handicap in 2017 and 2018.

Rekindling carried 51.5kg while last year’s winner Cross Counter carried 51kg.

But Carpenter says those results have forced a rethink.

“We have done an extensive and exhaustive review of the weight-for-age scale in Europe and in Australia,” Carpenter told ABC Radio.

“Victoria Racing Club and the Melbourne Racing Club, with the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups this year, have actually altered the benchmark weight for these northern hemisphere three-year-olds.

“So they will actually automatically be more highly weighted in 2019.

“I need to have a look at the success rate of these horses now and make a judgment on – other than the implementation of a higher weight-for-age weight for them – whether or not their form also needs additional weight.

“We don’t stand still when we provide the handicaps for the Melbourne Cup, it's an evolving art, but certainly on the results of the last two years with Rekindling and Cross Counter there has been a review and a change to the way we treat northern hemisphere three-year-olds in the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups going forward.”

Carpenter told the ABC it could also impact the entire Australian racing industry and they way it treats European three-year-olds.

“We have put forward a proposal to Racing Australia to change the allowances under the Australian Rules Of Racing and the weight-for-age scale so that northern hemisphere three-year-olds are not more generously treated here in Australia than they would be if they were actually racing on the same day over the same distance in Europe,” he said.


https://www.racenet.com.au/news/melbourne-cup-weights--it-s-now-harder-for-europeans-to-win-20190621







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:37pm
It looks to me that Carpenter wants the allowance for the NH 3yo's eliminated, which would automatically place them at the same weight level as our classic winners.

Not sure that is a viable option, but nowhere in there have I seen the option of lowering our 4yo's weights. That is option I would take. Drop our own spring 4yo's down to the same weight as the NH 3yo's and everything should be okay.

I am still trying to work out why we use the wfa scale to work out handicaps in the first place, when the wfa scale is outdated.

But alas that seems to be just my confusion.

Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:55pm
Should an Irish or English Derby winner automatically have more weight than A Victoria or Australian Derby winner who is 6 months older ?

They use the WFA scale purely as a guide. We are admitting our horses are piss weak next to the Europeans if we think a NH 3yo should carry the same weight as a similarly performed SH 3yo.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 5:59pm
Greg Carpenter needs to get over his 58 kgs phobia and start weighting more horses with 60+ kgs and work down.

The minimum top weight should be 60 kgs as it is in a typical Saturday Open handicap. 

If none of the top weights accept than weights should rise in relation to the horses TRUE weight.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 6:11pm
What do you mean Voyager ?   Is the concept of the WFA scale outdated or are the values of the WFA scale outdated ?

The concept has remained the same for 150 years but the values have changed almost constantly. The values have never been set in stone.   The whole purpose of the scale was to encourage horses of different ages and sexes to race against one another = more competition.   It that sense it has worked ... up to  point.   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Greg Carpenter needs to get over his 58 kgs phobia and start weighting more horses with 60+ kgs and work down.

The minimum top weight should be 60 kgs as it is in a typical Saturday Open handicap. 

If none of the top weights accept than weights should rise in relation to the horses TRUE weight.




Did you rate Jim Bowler as a better handicapper then Carpenter? He was the handicapper in Victoria before Carpenter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 7:43pm
Never given it any thought.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2019 at 1:13am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Never given it any thought.


I Think he used to handicap the better horses high in the weights
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2019 at 1:51am
When was his last year ?

I remember Swain was given 63 kgs the year he was entered.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2019 at 1:58am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

When was his last year ?

I remember Swain was given 63 kgs the year he was entered.


2004 was Bowlers last year. 2005 was Carpenters first year. I remember Bowler giving Kayf Tara 58.5kg (top weight) for the 1999 Cup. My point is that as you said..the better horses should be handicapped higher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2019 at 2:45am
It all depends on the entries.

If the best horse is a group 3 horse they should be asked to carry 60 kgs.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2019 at 10:39am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

It all depends on the entries.

If the best horse is a group 3 horse they should be asked to carry 60 kgs.



Spot on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2019 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by Tontonan Tontonan wrote:

What do you mean Voyager ?   Is the concept of the WFA scale outdated or are the values of the WFA scale outdated ?

The concept has remained the same for 150 years but the values have changed almost constantly. The values have never been set in stone.   The whole purpose of the scale was to encourage horses of different ages and sexes to race against one another = more competition.   It that sense it has worked ... up to  point.   




The concept is outdated.

The proliferation of champion mares over the last ten years at least, shows that mares should not get an allowance. They should be carrying the same as the males, of a similar age. If you take Winx and Black Caviar out, you still have mares like Zenyatta, Treve, the Japanese mares and in Australia we have seen mares like Bonneval, Jamekha, Miss Andretti, Tuesday Joy, More Joyous, Southern Speed as well as the 3yos like Maid In Heaven and Mosheen and Miss Finland and Mystic Journey, beat the boys more regularly than in previous eras.

If we use the wfa scale, then Makybe Diva if she was a male, would have been given 60 kilos for her the 2005 cup, but I still think that was a kilo light.

If So You Think had run twenty years before his cup in 2010, he would have been given 58 instead of 56.5. Now you can say that the fields are about two kilos at least, better than 1990, but if that is correct then the older horses at least the Australian and NZ horses are being weighted correctly.

However the spring 4yo's, especially those who have won a oaks or derby, are still getting the same amount of weight, or more, because of the lighter minimum these days, which means those horses are in about two kilos to heavy, so because of the spring 4yo wfa weight scale, they are being penalised because they are being given a similar weight or close to the weights of the older horses.

Ace High won the VRC Derby, and was second in the ATC Derby. He had 55 kilos.

Now Naturalism, who did not run as spring 4yo, because he went to Japan for the cup, was given if my memory is correct 53, or 54, yet his form is very similar, he ran second in the spring and won the Sydney derby.

Now the horses behind Naturalism were Veandercross, Air Seattle, Cavallieri and some other stayers who went on to group 1 glory. Ace High's field has not produced a group 1 winner. So I am just having a very hard time gaining a logical reason, why the handicapper is looking at and has actually modified the weights for all groups of stayers nominated for the cup, especially the top and bottom ends of the weights scale, but he has ignored the local 4yo's, especially those who have won an oaks or derby.

If we use the Caulfield Cup as a guide, the 4yo's have been given winnable weights there and combined with the fact that the overseas stayers in that race, have up until last year been a lower level than those which race at Flemington, the 4yo's have a good record recently in that race with Jamekha and Mongolian Khan winning and others running placings.

I am just wondering how the wfa scale being used as a guide, is relevant to weighting horses in the cup.

I think the handicapper is underestimating the relevance of the older horses having that extra twelve months of racing under the wfa weight. Males only get 56.5 kilos in the ATC Derby, which is restricted to their own age, and where they are racing a field of horses which may only have two or three genuine 2400m horses engaged. Yet 6 or 7 months down the track, they only get 1.5 or 2 kilos less, when they are taking on well seasoned, genuine stayers at a distance which they have never raced at. There has to be some compensation for the classic winners here in Australia with their weights, but they seem to, me, to be the most harshly weighted group of horses in the race.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majestic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2019 at 11:01am
If we want to get to the bottom line, horses form can always be scrutinised enough to come up with a fair weight. But, when you factor in the jockeys’ weights, there will never again be horses running with the middle to high 40 kgs. So top weight is still in the 58-60kg mark but the bottom weights are low 50kgs. Thus, if the bottom weights have be risen by 4-5kgs why, as stated above, shouldn’t the top weights also be increased similarly. England and Ireland have races with 60-65kg topweights routinely eg Ebor Hcp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote breeding_above_all Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2019 at 9:25pm
Falcon Eight is a very impressive progressive horse.. Weld has a good one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2019 at 10:34pm
I need some clarification, it seems older horses get more weight but why is it that a six year old Brew was given 49kg for the 2000 Cup? Granted he got a light weight due to his modest record but as a six year old..you'd think he would of got more weight.

For example you often here Carpenter when allocating weights for horses from there previous year to the following year he will say something along the lines of "such and such will get more weight as he is a five year old or the weight for age scale"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 5:25am
Jamal I'm pretty sure the 4yo's still get a smaller weight than the 5yo's on the WFA scale at Cup time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 5:47am
Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

Jamal I'm pretty sure the 4yo's still get a smaller weight than the 5yo's on the WFA scale at Cup time.


But as my question eluded to - Brew was a 6 year-old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 9:44am
Well you didn't mention the WFA scale in relation to Brew...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SkyDancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 10:07am
You answered your own question Jamal.
Brew was a donkey hence the low weight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by SkyDancer SkyDancer wrote:

You answered your own question Jamal.
Brew was a donkey hence the low weight



The donkey who won a Melbourne Cup..good effort..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TOLEDO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 1:56pm
Brew's form before the campaign he won the Melb cup was very poor so he got the low weight. He qualified by winning the lexus, on his form after the weights came out he probably would have ended up with 52kg or so. From memory he won the bart cummings, 2nd in the moonee valley cup and won the lexus all after weights were released
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by TOLEDO TOLEDO wrote:

Brew's form before the campaign he won the Melb cup was very poor so he got the low weight. He qualified by winning the lexus, on his form after the weights came out he probably would have ended up with 52kg or so. From memory he won the bart cummings, 2nd in the moonee valley cup and won the lexus all after weights were released


Correct - Brew won The Bart Cummings but at the time it was called The Japan Trophy race and was a Listed race, also there was no Melbourne Cup ballot excemption for the winner.

See below Brew's campaign.



Brew's Melbourne Cup Lead-Up Campaign

2000, Brew (NZ) - six year old gelding, won Cup from barrier 22:

10th – Listed Heatherlie Stakes: 56.5kg (1700m hcp at Caulfield) – Kerrin McEvoy

11th – Listed Naturalism Stakes: 54kg (2000m Qlty hcp at Caulfield) – Steven King

1st – Listed Japan Trophy: 54kg (2559m Qlty hcp at Flemington) – Darren Beadman

2nd – Group 2 Moonee Valley Cup: 55kg (2500m SWP at Moonee Valley) – Brett Prebble

1st – Group 2 Saab Quality: 56.5kg (2500m Qlty hcp at Flemington) – Chris Munce

1st – Group 1 Melbourne Cup: 49.5kg (3200m hcp at Flemington) – Kerrin McEvoy

Total Metres Run Prior to Cup Win: 11,259 metres. Trainer: Mike Moroney
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