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Zizzis

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sunline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 7:16pm
What a mess. The fact Payne saw no issue with the ride tells you everything you need to know about whether trainers and jockeys have any idea about tactics.

I'm happy to concede there is a grey area when it comes to determining if the ride was corrupt or simply incompetent, but there is no grey area around whether it was an extreme case of not permitting the horse every chance through the ride. Barriers are not mitigating circumstances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 7:27pm
Think you're being kind to Payne Sunline. 

Egan wouldn't have got off in NSW. 

Stewards could still charge him with incompetent riding. Don't know why they didn't use both rules in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Penzance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 7:55pm
I hope hatch is not a licensed person.
Bad mouthing Mr Waller could get him into trouble
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Think you're being kind to Payne Sunline. 

Egan wouldn't have got off in NSW. 

Stewards could still charge him with incompetent riding. Don't know why they didn't use both rules in the first place.


Not sure about the NSW comment 3BM. After Schofield got off on Up N Rolling nothing surprises me anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linghi11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Sunline Sunline wrote:

What a mess. The fact Payne saw no issue with the ride tells you everything you need to know about whether trainers and jockeys have any idea about tactics.

I'm happy to concede there is a grey area when it comes to determining if the ride was corrupt or simply incompetent, but there is no grey area around whether it was an extreme case of not permitting the horse every chance through the ride. Barriers are not mitigating circumstances.


Payne probably laid it. It’s not a great ride but I’ve seen many worse which didn’t attract any questions.
to the victor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 8:36pm
Both incompetent but chalk and cheese rides imo Judge. Egan had zero excuse for tailing his mount out, that was indefensible. 

But I was really talking about appeals. When NSW stewards decide to take action charges generally stick. Then again I've never read anything as wet behind the ears as the rubbish offered by Gleeson as justification for their doubt. As a lawyer he knew there was only one question to be answered. Did Egan give the horse every chance to win?  In tailing it out early imo there was only one possible answer given the form and betting.

Slow news day if we're still discussing this though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 2:13pm
You have it wrong , most of you would not be capable of riding a horse around the parade ring before the race when the horse is being led .   Egan never interfered with the horses head any part of the race ,he did not pull it back in the early stages ,he had it flat out for the last 500 meters . On the day the horse was not good enough .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sunline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 2:30pm
What you fail to understand is that the ability to sit on a horse's back has nothing to do with the ability to understand how to ride a race tactically. It's like suggesting someone who is a good trainer must be a good punter. They are completely different skills. One is a physical one, the other a mental one.

I cold be the worst rider of a horse - in fact I could have never sat on one's back - and I could still be better at strategising how to ride a race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by hatch hatch wrote:

You have it wrong , most of you would not be capable of riding a horse around the parade ring before the race when the horse is being led .   Egan never interfered with the horses head any part of the race ,he did not pull it back in the early stages ,he had it flat out for the last 500 meters . On the day the horse was not good enough .

Lol. So in what world do racehorses run under their own steam Hatch? Or are you suggesting that jockeys don't rate horses, they simply sit and steer? Pretty low opinion you must have of them if that's the case.

Egan was on the best horse by a margin, he had no reason whatsoever to be tailed out 3 lengths behind the second last horse over 1000m. Odd that you ignore that, even odder that Gleeson didn't appear to take any account of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sunline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 3:00pm
Especially when you consider the early speed it showed it had at its previous first up 1000m race. Noted it showed that speed under no urging whatsoever. The position it found itself in was completely by jockey design.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 3:26pm
Luck in the running is a big thing , a jockey has to make choices in a race, spur of the moment choices ,   we are different we can see what happened ,we have hindsight , big difference ,always remember we have hindsight .   With hindsight we still get it wrong. One day a rider rode for me ,coming to the straight she could not get a run and pulled out ,the rider that was blocking her passage pulled out and a runner came from behind and won, the rider on mine said she should have won ,I stuffed it ,I said no you didn't you did not know the rider blocking you was going to pull out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 3:30pm
We acknowledge all that Hatch. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by hatch hatch wrote:

Luck in the running is a big thing , a jockey has to make choices in a race, spur of the moment choices ,   we are different we can see what happened ,we have hindsight , big difference ,always remember we have hindsight .   With hindsight we still get it wrong. One day a rider rode for me ,coming to the straight she could not get a run and pulled out ,the rider that was blocking her passage pulled out and a runner came from behind and won, the rider on mine said she should have won ,I stuffed it ,I said no you didn't you did not know the rider blocking you was going to pull out.


What’s that got to do with this ride? Where the jockey made a ‘split second’ decision that lasted for about 25 seconds to give it no hope three lengths off the 2nd last horse?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 4:16pm
I think he would of had to urge him along to get closer early, I think Payne would not have been happy with that.   He lets his horses being comfortable early.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 4:27pm
You haven't watched the race then Hatch? That puts you almost in the same league as Gleeson et al who appear to have watched it through rose coloured glasses with one eye shut and the other crossed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 4:44pm
Yes, I watched the race several times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 4:51pm
Doesn't appear so from your comment regarding the need for Egan to urge Zizzis along early. 

There's a world of difference between easing a horse and taking a trail and allowing it to become detached a long way off the second last horse, esp over a kilometre on a tight track. And you don't need to have ridden a racehorse to know that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 5:09pm
I think he let it run comfortably from the start, NOT eased ,it was going as quick as it wanted to from the start .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 5:31pm
Ah I see. So it was another case of the horse mysteriously controlling the jockey?

I recall a similar (but different) situation way back when I shared ownership in a horse. Trainer and jockey got done for failing to let a horse run on its merits. Horse  charged down the outside late and would have won easily if let go. As he was also our trainer we got the full sorry story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 5:35pm
It's unreasonable to allow a horse to be detached from the field in these circumstances.
Asking the horse to remain competitive by maintain a reasonable position is the only acceptable course of action.
If it's unacceptable to ask the horse to compete it shouldn't be in the race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breeding Above All Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 10:08am
I always am very amused when professionals like footballers and jockeys etc are made out to be the absolute experts in their field for tactics and knowledge etc.. most are extremely uneducated in every sense of the word and are just ‘talented’.

If people think Jockeys are all experts and know better than astute judges who watch it and study the game, you are very very deceived..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 11:08am
Originally posted by Breeding Above All Breeding Above All wrote:

I always am very amused when professionals like footballers and jockeys etc are made out to be the absolute experts in their field for tactics and knowledge etc.. most are extremely uneducated in every sense of the word and are just ‘talented’.

If people think Jockeys are all experts and know better than astute judges who watch it and study the game, you are very very deceived..
Would you back a horse with a top jockey on it, or a judge who watches and studies the races
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sunline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Breeding Above All Breeding Above All wrote:

I always am very amused when professionals like footballers and jockeys etc are made out to be the absolute experts in their field for tactics and knowledge etc.. most are extremely uneducated in every sense of the word and are just ‘talented’.

If people think Jockeys are all experts and know better than astute judges who watch it and study the game, you are very very deceived..

Finally someone with some common sense, and not a 'horse person' who thinks anyone that hasn't ridden 100 winners can't possibly comment on the riding tactics of a jockey.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by hatch hatch wrote:

 Would you back a horse with a top jockey on it, or a judge who watches and studies the races

Odd question. Jockeys are notoriously poor judges of form overall but good ones are able to provide a solid guide as to how a horse ran AFTER a race.

The REAL question in the Zizzis case is what would Patrick have said about the ride had it been an important race with big $$$ attached. The other unanswered question is what instructions did he give to Egan? Only limited experience of racing is required to arrive at the most likely answer both questions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2018 at 1:07pm
Egan got the ride of the day on Widgee Turf yesterday , he rode it like Payne likes them ridden ,   quietly , if you don't like them ridden like that, don't back them and don't winge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2018 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by hatch hatch wrote:

Egan got the ride of the day on Widgee Turf yesterday , he rode it like Payne likes them ridden ,   quietly , if you don't like them ridden like that, don't back them and don't winge.
No.

I repeat, certain tactics are unacceptable.

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

It's unreasonable to allow a horse to be detached from the field in these circumstances.
Asking the horse to remain competitive by maintain a reasonable position is the only acceptable course of action.
If it's unacceptable to ask the horse to compete it shouldn't be in the race.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2018 at 2:35pm
He was not to far away to make the ground ,just on the day he could not do it ,he just beat the ones he was close to on the turn ,maybe the winner is a good horse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by hatch hatch wrote:

Egan got the ride of the day on Widgee Turf yesterday , he rode it like Payne likes them ridden ,   quietly , if you don't like them ridden like that, don't back them and don't winge.

An admission that Egan was riding to bullgelati instructions from the trainer perhaps? Frankly I don't care how Patrick likes his horses ridden, I want them ridden according to the rules - ie given a chance of winning, esp when they are rightfully short-priced favs. Zizzis led at its first run when he wanted it to win and then wasn't far off them at his second start, again when he wanted her to win a $200K race. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sunline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 11:58pm
Patrick likes them tailed off and given no hope? My a$$. The bloke was a great jockey. He's not that dumb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 11:58am
ha ,ha ,I think he likes them to win all the time ,his strike rate would be good , the horse was never in a hopeless position ,he keeps putting Egan on he must have been happy with the ride.
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