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Zabeel retired

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.Swynford. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2016 at 8:50pm
The best progeny of Zabeel's father  Sir Tristram ' also carried that same pattern,  the reinforcement of his own female family


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2016 at 8:59pm
And his father to 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2016 at 5:06pm
and a couple of other handy types.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 7:41am
Hello,
maybe I add some of minde observations to the various pedigres .Swynford explains. Btw, it's the same way  I'm looking at peds. In some cases I'm going a bit further than usually.
 
Marauding - Biscay - Makarpura - Big Game (Bahram!) - Gondolette
damline Nunkalowe-Boysie Boy-Kings Troop-Credenda
Silver Fleet-Scottisch Union-Credenda (Family of Surumu, Oasis Dream)
Boysie Boy- The Phoenix-Friar's Daughter (Bahram)
 
Octagonal-Pieces of Eight (Black Cherry/Blandford/Caro)- Nearco/Niccolo d'ell Arca- 2x Nogara (Catnip)
 
Sound Proposition- Zabeel/Vice Regal + Ebony Grosve-Grosvenor-Le Filou
 
Sweet Alliance 2x Pharamond-Selene
Legendra-Challenger-Great Sport-Selene
 
More or les accidental I found this ped:
String of Pearls (!)
Ardistaan-Mumtaz Mahal-Lady Josephine
Fairs Fair-Fair Trial-Lady Juror-Lady Josephine
Vivian Ann-Joyous-Lady Josephine
 
3 daughters of Lady Josephine within 5 Generations
+ HB's Bahram/Dastur (Friars Daughter)
dam 4x4 The Tetrarch
Sire Ardistaan 2xNearco (Nogara)
 
regards, Ticino
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 11:08am
Swynford, just trying to educate myself with your interesting theory and understand, wondered what you think of my scenario below?

Per Incanto x Towkay has 9 starters on the cross for 2 winners.
Per Incanto x O'Reilly has 10 starters for 7 winners and a stakes winner.
Both have the Try My Best duplication 4x4 via the mare's sireline anf the sire's damline

Towkay is underachieving as a broodmare sire so far, no stakes winners from 99 runners and O'Reilly is by far the better BMS with 661 starters for 49 stakes winners. Surely if the cross is to be believed then it needs to happen through individuals who have succeeded at stud. There will be times when the BMS is still new in it's role therefore unknown in it's ability to pass on anything good. 

All stats from RISA

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 Saracino (2013) - M - 14-b 
by Per Incanto out of Bella Daniela by O'Reilly to 7 generations
Per Incanto
2004
Street Cry
1998
Machiavellian
1987
Mr Prospector
1970
Raise A Native
1961
Native Dancer
1950
Polynesian
Geisha
1942 - 14-a
1943 - 5-f
Raise You
1946
Case Ace
Lady Glory
1934 - 1-k
1934 - 8-f
Gold Digger
1962
Nashua
1952
Nasrullah
Segula
1940 - 9-c
1942 - 3-m
Sequence
1946
Count Fleet
Miss Dogwood
1940 - 6
1939 - 13-c
Coup De Folie
1982
Halo
1969
Hail To Reason
1958
Turn-To
Nothirdchance
1951 - 1-w
1948 - 4-n
Cosmah
1953
Cosmic Bomb
Almahmoud
1944 - 14-f
1947 - 2-d
Raise The Standard
1978
Hoist The Flag
1968
Tom Rolfe
Wavy Navy
1962 - 9-h
1954 - 5-i
Natalma
1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950 - 5-f
1947 - 2-d
Helen Street
1982
Troy
1976
Petingo
1965
Petition
1944
Fair Trial
Art Paper
1932 - 9-c
1933 - 16-h
Alcazar
1957
Alycidon
Quarterdeck
1945 - 1-w
1947 - 22
La Milo
1963
Hornbeam
1953
Hyperion
Thicket
1930 - 6-e
1947 - 1-p
Pin Prick
1955
Pinza
Miss Winston
1950 - 3-i
1949 - 1-b
Waterway
1976
Riverman
1969
Never Bend
1960
Nasrullah
Lalun
1940 - 9-c
1952 - 19-b
River Lady
1963
Prince John
Nile Lily
1953 - 14-f
1954 - 10-a
Boulevard
1968
Pall Mall
1955
Palestine
Malapert
1947 - 3-e
1946 - 7-d
Costa Sola
1963
Worden II
Sunny Cove
1949 - 13-c
1957 - 1-l
Pappa Reale
1993
Indian Ridge
1985
Ahonoora
1975
Lorenzaccio
1965
Klairon
1952
Clarion
Kalmia
1944 - 1-n
1931 - 1-w
Phoenissa
1951
The Phoenix
Erica Fragrans
1940 - 16-a
1946 - 5-h
Helen Nichols
1966
Martial
1957
Hill Gail
Discipliner
1949 - 11-c
1948 - 2-d
Quaker Girl
1961
Whistler
Mayflower
1950 - 1-l
1956 - 1-m
Hillbrow
1975
Swing Easy
1968
Delta Judge
1960
Traffic Judge
Beautillion
1952 - 3-n
1953 - 12-c
Free Flowing
1958
Polynesian
Rytina
1942 - 14-a
1943 - 4-n
Golden City
1970
Skymaster
1958
Golden Cloud
Discipliner
1941 - 22-d
1948 - 2-d
West Shaw
1960
Grey Sovereign
Irish Candy
1948 - 6-f
1946 - 3-e
Daffodil Fields
1985
Try My Best
1975
Northern Dancer
1961
Nearctic
1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935 - 4-r
1944 - 14-c
Natalma
1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950 - 5-f
1947 - 2-d
Sex Appeal
1970
Buckpasser
1963
Tom Fool
Busanda
1949 - 3-j
1947 - 1-x
Best In Show
1965
Traffic Judge
Stolen Hour
1952 - 3-n
1953 - 8-f
Water Frolic
1975
Sir Ivor
1965
Sir Gaylord
1959
Turn-To
Somethingroyal
1951 - 1-w
1952 - 2-s
Attica
1953
Mr Trouble
Athenia
1947 - 13-b
1943 - 8-g
Waterloo
1969
Bold Lad
1964
Bold Ruler
Barn Pride
1954 - 8-d
1957 - 2-d
Lakewoods
1958
Hyperion
Holwood
1930 - 6-e
1951 - 1-u
Bella Daniela
2008
O'Reilly
1993
Last Tycoon
1983
Try My Best
1975
Northern Dancer
1961
Nearctic
1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935 - 4-r
1944 - 14-c
Natalma
1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950 - 5-f
1947 - 2-d
Sex Appeal
1970
Buckpasser
1963
Tom Fool
Busanda
1949 - 3-j
1947 - 1-x
Best In Show
1965
Traffic Judge
Stolen Hour
1952 - 3-n
1953 - 8-f
Mill Princess
1977
Mill Reef
1968
Never Bend
1960
Nasrullah
Lalun
1940 - 9-c
1952 - 19-b
Milan Mill
1962
Princequillo
Virginia Water
1940 - 1-b
1953 - 22-d
Irish Lass
1962
Sayajirao
1944
Nearco
Rosy Legend
1935 - 4-r
1931 - 3-n
Scollata
1952
Niccolo Dell'arca
Cutaway
1938 - 4-r
1943 - 8-c
Courtza
1986
Pompeii Court
1977
Tell
1966
Round Table
1954
Princequillo
Knight's Daughter
1940 - 1-b
1941 - 2-f
Nas-Mahal
1959
Nasrullah
Love Game
1940 - 9-c
1949 - 2-f
Port Damascus
1971
Damascus
1964
Sword Dancer
Kerala
1956 - 1-o
1958 - 8-h
Paris Pike
1957
Tulyar
Banri An Oir
1949 - 22-a
1950 - 1-p
Hunza
1970
Pakistan II
1958
Palestine
1947
Fair Trial
Una
1932 - 9-c
1930 - 3-e
Tambara
1947
Nasrullah
Theresina
1940 - 9-c
1927 - 6-d
Chatty Lady
1961
Chatsworth II
1950
Chanteur II
Netherton Maid
1942 - 12
1944 - 21-a
Glamin
1952
Instinct
Glamour Girl
1941 - 7-b
1942 - 13-b
Coupon
1999
Carnegie
1991
Sadler's Wells
1981
Northern Dancer
1961
Nearctic
1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935 - 4-r
1944 - 14-c
Natalma
1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950 - 5-f
1947 - 2-d
Fairy Bridge
1975
Bold Reason
1968
Hail To Reason
Lalun
1958 - 4-n
1952 - 19-b
Special
1969
Forli
Thong
1963 - 3-b
1964 - 5-h
Detroit
1977
Riverman
1969
Never Bend
1960
Nasrullah
Lalun
1940 - 9-c
1952 - 19-b
River Lady
1963
Prince John
Nile Lily
1953 - 14-f
1954 - 10-a
Derna
1961
Sunny Boy
1944
Jock
Fille De Soleil
1936 - 14-f
1935 - 16-a
Miss Barberie
1950
Norseman
Vaneuse
1940 - 13-c
1945 - 16-c
Ascendo
1991
Conquistarose
1984
Conquistador Cielo
1979
Mr Prospector
1970
Raise A Native
Gold Digger
1961 - 8-f
1962 - 13-c
K D Princess
1971
Bold Commander
Tammy's Turn
1960 - 8-c
1965 - 8-h
De La Rose
1978
Nijinsky II
1967
Northern Dancer
Flaming Page
1961 - 2-d
1959 - 8-f
Rosetta Stone
1964
Round Table
Rose Coral
1954 - 2-f
1950 - 26
On The Rise
1983
Crested Wave
1976
Crozier
1958
My Babu
Miss Olympia
1945 - 1-w
1952 - 23-b
Fading Wave
1964
Quibu
Fading Sky
1942 - 11-b
1958 - 20-c
Lavender Hill
1973
Sovereign Edition
1962
Sovereign Path
Latest Edition
1956 - 4-l
1951 - 13-a
Rosehill
1964
Test Case
Foxona
1958 - 9-c
1950 - 14-b
TesioPower
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 2:57pm
 Sorry I haven't answered your question, I do have a lot more to add to the Zabeel / Vice Regal cross and intended to incorporate your answer then.  Yes I agree with the stats you have presented but at the same time as I want to point out there is far more to pedigrees than just the first dam. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 5:24pm
I've found this thread to be a gripping read, but if the answer to the above doesn't involve Palestine, i'm out. Dead LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 7:17pm
thanks Swynford, yes I agree but as you have posted many pedigrees based upon the cross only I thought it was appropriate to do so here. Look forward to your future posts Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 10:05pm
To save people scrolling back I will post the pedigree of Jezabeel again. And after seeing the duplication of Man O War on the male line of Vice Regal mares, also the reinforcement of Zabeel's own female line through Le Filou, the question must be asked   "how important is that other duplication through the second dam ?"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 10:39pm
And I can't give you a scientific answer on that, only to say that YES I think the 2nd- 3rd -4th dams etc are extremely important. This pattern is seen in the best progeny of a wide range of stallions over many different countries and decades. And when planning thoroughbred mating's I never leave it out.

Looking at the pedigree of Gunsynd again and forgetting the stallions female line for a minute and asking that same question, How important are the second or subsequent dams in a pedigree the theory "that these mares are important, and that they may also have a bias to their opposite sex fits perfectly.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 10:56pm
I understand many will think in the pedigree ABOVE that picking out one or two horses in the 6th generation of a pedigree and saying it has value when there are 64 horses in that generation is nothing but a load of rubbish. 

But I don't see it that way I looking at the 2nd dam,  who has a bais to her maleline, and then the 4th dam  who has a bias to her male line, and to me the names on these malelines are perfect to breed back to Star Kingdom and his brood-mare sire Concerto.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 11:04pm
As in the examples above and this horse below,

 ask the question ? where are the duplications in the mare ?  Where are the duplications in the stallion. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 11:37pm
Red Hare... you on to it mate,   The connection between Palestine and Zabeel's best to me has to do with Fair Trial and Forli, more importantly the mare Lady Juror,  Forli is closely inbred to her.  





 If you look at Zabeel's pedigree, and believe he has a bias to his female side, and Nureyev has a bias to his female side then to my mind Forli was very active in Zabeel. 

In the pedigree below, this mare has on her maleline and on her grand dam's male line, exactly what it takes to (for want of a better word) to nail  Zabeel.  

Don't get me wrong, Zabeel was an outstanding stallion, but much like life itself , I think the ladies wear the pants, and finding the right one is never easy.  However I think it is the key and produces the best results if you are looking for Group One glory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 11:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 11:52pm
He's not a Group One winner but great example of the above

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 11:54pm
And his fathers pedigree.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2016 at 10:00am
Originally posted by .Swynford. .Swynford. wrote:

 Sorry I haven't answered your question, I do have a lot more to add to the Zabeel / Vice Regal cross and intended to incorporate your answer then.  Yes I agree with the stats you have presented but at the same time as I want to point out there is far more to pedigrees than just the first dam. 

thanks for that Swynford. Yes I believe also that the entire pedigree is important but I was trying to follow the pattern I put up involving Try My Best that has a whole section devoted to it on your website called 'Hot Positions'. Just trying to understand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2016 at 10:34am
Great point and a great argument. That is when O'Rielly mares and Towkay mares are mated with Per Incanto which produces the same inbreeding to Try My Best in the same, in my opinion "hot position" can it be valued the same.   I think it is up to the individual really, one would think that it would be Try My Best who haas the influence,  but when planning matings with either of these mares I think it is the perfect place to start.

As for the slide show on 'hot positions' at my website , if I highlighted every duplication in the tree or every line breeding pattern that I can see, most would be lost.  It is a great entry point to learn about line breeding for the novice, which obviously you aren't. http://www.championsbydesign.com.au

The horse that I would use when looking for that second pattern is the horse Tourbillon and I would like to see him right on the maleline of one of the mares lower in the pedigree.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2016 at 1:55pm
Thanks for that Swynford, much appreciated. I think it may have to do in this instance with a poor broodmare sire in Towkay not passing on the good stuff to have the effect you say. Needs more study. Your ideas are interesting and thought provoking. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2016 at 1:58pm
"As for the slide show on 'hot positions' at my website , if I highlighted every duplication in the tree or every line breeding pattern that I can see, most would be lost.  It is a great entry point to learn about line breeding for the novice, which obviously you aren't."

I know just enough to be dangerous Wink 

Understand and thought your keeping it simple with the hot positions was in fact what you were doing but had to ask. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2016 at 9:37pm
Whenever a Vice Regal mare went to Zabeel it crossed Zabeel's 5th dam Vaneuse with her 3/4 brother Le Filou, damsire of Vice Regal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2016 at 8:37pm
Hello,
more or less accidentally I came across another European family member of Zabeel.
The Name of the Sire is Roderic O'Connor (by Galileo) tracing to Derna.
 
Aristophanes, Sire of Forli, had 2 close relatives the FB's Faux Tirage/Combat (by Big Game, Fam of Hyperion) Faux Tirage wasv sent to NZ and Combat had a son called Aggressor, damsire of Acatenango.
 
Riot/Fair Trial are 3/4 relatives; Fair Trial-Fairway-Phalaris, Riot-Colorado-Phalaris.
regards, Ticino
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2016 at 9:44pm
With respect, you'd think there must be more to Mr Luigi than a sex-balanced Zabeel cross?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2016 at 12:30am
Hello,
during the 1960's a mare named Palazzo was purchased for the "Schlenderhan Stud" in Germany, her best offspring was Priamos (by Birkhahn) and he had some HB's Pantheon, Pamino. Priamos Family is no more in the broodmare band at Schlenderhan. His best distances was around 1600 - 1800 meters. Priamos raced from 2 - 6 years and won as 2 year old "Rudolf Oetker Rennen","Zukunfts Rennen" (Group 3 nowadays), as 3 year old he had some health problems; as 4 year old: Moorman Rennen, Preis v. Gelsenkirchen, Gr. Preis v. Dortmund, Prix Massine (France), as 5 year old: Jakobs Pokal, 2. Gr. Preis v. Dortmund, 2. Hansa Preis, 2. Gr. Preis v. Nordrhein Westfalen, 4. Aral Pokal (Gr.1), 4. Preis v. Europa (Gr. 1), as 6 year old: Prix Dollar, Prix Jacques le Marois
 
He raced 30 times, 14 wins, 5 secondplacings, 3x thirdplaced, Money won 227.500 DM, 425.00FF
 
After his racing career he stood at his breeders Stud and became 33 years old! He was a good, but not outstanding Sire. He is the Sire of Stuyvesant (German Derby), Anatas, Night Music (Novellist), La Tour, Astico, San Vicente, Brigida, Amhara (Azzurro) etc.
 
First Palazzo belongs to the Family of Hyperion and second in her damline you will see Diomedes, the same Sire as in Zabeel damline. A hypo mating Zabeel/Priamos (6 gen.) looks interesting and the similarity is even more obvious if you compare Derna (Zabeel) with Edifice (Priamos) extended to
6. gen.
 
regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2016 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

With respect, you'd think there must be more to Mr Luigi than a sex-balanced Zabeel cross?

I agree SC and I would be putting my money on the male line of the 4th dam, tracing to Bahram through Big Game, like the stallion Darci Brahma and also Zabeel, Bahram is from the #16 family, and to my mind probably the king of that clan. 

I have been a pedigree man for a couple of decades but still can't get my head around sex-balancing.


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Joined: 23 Jun 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 3:44pm
The most recent Group One winner from the Zabeel sire line. 

As stated there is a mare lower in it's pedigree that traces in male line to... one of the champions from the #16  family, in this case Bios Roussel 

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furious View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 13791
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2017 at 4:51pm
Sir Tristram m x f.  Picked it out of the yearling sales but not so strange as I love the Lady Chester female line.  If something else is there in the pedigree and they sell unders (he PI at $90K) in they go.  
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Red Hare View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 12 Jan 2015
Location: Victoria
Status: Offline
Points: 2783
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2018 at 7:47pm
Interesting yearling for sale in the current Inglis Digital catalogue.


Hallowed Crown x Waterloo Bridge. The 3rd dam is a daughter of Vice Regal.
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