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djebel View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 May 2011 at 11:18am
WORLD THOROUGHBRED RANKINGS
TOP 12 HORSES - 1st Dec 2010 to 23rd May 2011

click here for complete rankings
Rank   Horse Rating Trained
1   BLACK CAVIAR (AUS) 130 AUS
1   FRANKEL (GB) 130 GB
3   SO YOU THINK (NZ) 126 IRE
4   CANFORD CLIFFS (IRE) 125 GB
4   ROCKET MAN (AUS) 125 SIN
6   DICK TURPIN (IRE) 124 GB
7   HAY LIST (AUS) 122 AUS
7   J J THE JET PLANE (SAF) 122 SAF
7   PLANTEUR (IRE) 122 FR
7   TWICE OVER (GB) 122 GB
7   VICTOIRE PISA (JPN) 122 JPN
7   WORTHADD (IRE) 122 ITY
STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 12:10pm
I know people like to denigrate international rankings and they may be right. But I do like to see Black Caviar and So You Think up the top. And Hay List is doing well too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fairest One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 12:14pm
Sure is great to see!!! Used to it being so dominated by overseas horses.
 
Lets not forget that Rocket Man is Aus-bred as well.
 
Cmon Apparitions!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 12:26pm
Look at that, Goldikova is not ranked in the top 53. She comes in somewhere at a rating of 116 based on Goldikova based on Cirrus des Aigles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 12:39pm
It also has me dumbfounded how JJ The Jet Planeis behind Rocket Man when he defeated him and a so called class field in Hong Kong (Ortensia finished 5th and she can not get near Black Caviar or Hay List).
 
Surely Rocket Mans efforts in Dubai and Singapore are not better than JJ's to beat him in HK.
 
Just another point to show that these rankings should not be taken seriously.  
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:08pm
Voyager, How much higher rating did JJ The Jet plane earn for his Hong Kong victory over Rocket Man ?

STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExceedAndExcel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:15pm
Well I don't think they are taken seriously Voyager. Not by anyone who has a decent grasp of form anyway.

That said it is great to see several Australian horses near the top.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:28pm
What is a decent grasp of form ?

It seems to me most base their "form" on emotion rather than what is actually happening on the race tracks of the world.
STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scamanda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:50pm
The rankings can always be dissected and discredited in one way or another.
There will be many who think Frankel is the best horse in the world, and any unbeaten horse is always untapped.

But hasn't he only won restricted races for his age?

SYT won his first Cox Plate at 3YO and wouldn't have rated as high as Frankel.
After his second Cox , you'd expect his ranking to be as high as Frankel's, if not higher.
And SYT has won Group 1 open on 2 continents.

So the rankings are pretty ..........rank?

Good to see some recognition for the Aussies all the same.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 2:02pm
Scamanda that all depends on the FORM of the races won.

None of the form in Australia behind So You Think is much good is it ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scamanda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 2:37pm
The form of SYT in Australia seems to be standing up pretty well I think. He's won both his races with ease, and Bart Cummings reckons he beat better horses here.

I'd ask the same question about Frankel though. How is his form any better when he has only raced against his own age? ( I think )
I'm sure he's very good, and may well prove it too. But for a 3YO to equally top the table with 6 wins is not as good as Black Caviars unbeaten run against all comers. 

And I've already pointed out the SYT wins that are better than any of Frankel's. Open class Group 1 Australasian championships two years running. And then some.

Maybe Frankel has a rich owner who can influence the rankings, which will help his stud career.
No, that wouldn't be right. Forget i said that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saintly96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 3:04pm
The rankings are heavily slanted in favur of the Euro's, that is obvious.

SYT ranked the same for winning a Cox Plate and the group 3 Mooresbridge (against very inferior opposition). I just don't think that is right.

The rankings are a guide only, Frankel's rating is way too high (at the moment). I do think he is the real deal, but he needs to prove it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baseless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 3:41pm

When the top 3 handicappers in Europe, top 3 handicappers in Asia and top 3 handicappers in Asia put their heads together to determine world thoroughbred rankings based on times, weights, class, ease of win etc surely you would expect them to be close to the mark.  
May the farce be with you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by baseless baseless wrote:


When the top 3 handicappers in Europe, top 3 handicappers in Asia and top 3 handicappers in Asia put their heads together to determine world thoroughbred rankings based on times, weights, class, ease of win etc surely you would expect them to be close to the mark.  
 
I tend to wonder how hard Australia's handicappers put their case in these things and argue against the high rating of the Europeans.
 
Whilst there is plenty of form around the open aged groups, there must be far more guess work involved with the Euro 3yos at this stage of their season ?
STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 7:14pm
Certainly the Timeform rating seem skewed  in favour of the Euros, but these seem pretty reasonable to me. They don't appear to have got quite as carried away with Frankel as Timeform, but he still looks something exceptional I think
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarriSymbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 9:50pm
Three Aussie bred horses in the top seven is impressive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baseless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2011 at 7:56am
Some are talking about Frankel as the next Nijinsky.  Seems like a case of premature acclaimation.

Here a couple of videos:

Nijinsky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfluUEcN500&feature=related

 

Frankel winning at Newbury:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nptRQkCaYk&feature=related


May the farce be with you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:08am
The sprinters are very prominent in these rankings which is unusual.  Most surprising is the total lack off US horses.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maximillions Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:25am
Hey Lordy GO the BUFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF !
Forget the odds.....You are Unstoppable !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baseless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:31am
Lordy

My understanding is that of the nine experts doing the rankings three are from the USA.
May the farce be with you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smakman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 4:59pm
Scamanda... I've said it before and nothing's changed. The ITF have no idea about ranking horses. Consider that SYT was ranked 23rd in the world after winning a second Cox Plate and finishing third in the Mlebourne Cup. A few months later, after beating absolute camels in Ireland, he's ranked number 2. So they have no idea about world racing, only European racing. And judging by the fact they rated his 2 trackwork wins against horses that would all be 100/1 in a Cox Plate, they don't even know much about that.
 
I once said they were Eurocentric. I was wrong. They're Euromanic. Twice Over is not the seventh best horse in the world and I'm sure his connections would admit that. He went up four positions this year based on a Group 2 win at Meydan.
 
The entire system is flawed. They rate on single performances instead of combined or career performance. So if a poorly performed horse comes out and upsets Frankel in record time, he gets the number one billing? It worked for Harbinger.
 
Consider another flaw in their formula-based system of rating horses. Derby & Arc winner Workforce isn't rated anywhere. Why? Because he's spelling. Give me a break!
 
Just remember, if we follow racing - and everyone here does - you don't have to blindly accept everything we're fed by people who have never understood racing outside of Europe. The fact that Black Caviar is rated the world's best horse is simply credit given many years too late. We have had many best in the world gallopers over the past 20-30 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by smakman smakman wrote:

 
The entire system is flawed. They rate on single performances instead of combined or career performance. So if a poorly performed horse comes out and upsets Frankel in record time, he gets the number one billing? It worked for Harbinger.
 
Consider another flaw in their formula-based system of rating horses. Derby & Arc winner Workforce isn't rated anywhere. Why? Because he's spelling. Give me a break!
 
Just remember, if we follow racing - and everyone here does - you don't have to blindly accept everything we're fed by people who have never understood racing outside of Europe. The fact that Black Caviar is rated the world's best horse is simply credit given many years too late. We have had many best in the world gallopers over the past 20-30 years.


That above is an example of not knowing ratings.

Who would be the horses that would have ranked on top in the last 20-30 years ?

How does one rate a horses career ? Surely a rating has to based on the bare form of a single race ?

Black Caviars whole career is not wrapped up in her rating, her rating is based on a single race.

I realise racing is an emotional sport based on the hip pocket but fair dinkum.

I really am interested who the many are that would rank worlds best over the 20-30 years.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 5:29pm
Whilst I am on my high horse how would you or do you rate horses smakman ?

Do you give them 2 points for each group 1 win ? How do you rate group 1 handicap wins and loses ?

On Saturday Sincero rated way below Beaded despite winning a "group 1" race, how would you rate the two ?

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smakman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 5:36pm

Oh it's you again. Nothing changes eh? Your work as an apologist for the ITF makes you get personal every time. Straight away, you attack me as not understanding. We could get into a pissing contest to see who has the better racing credentials but I don't need to do that.

"Black Caviars whole career is not wrapped up in her rating, her rating is based on a single race." You've just made my argument. A horse should not get a world's best rating based on one race.
 
They don't profess to be rating one race. They name the world's best horses.... but yes, I agree, they do it after watching one race! This is a mathemathical equation done by people who consistently show a lack of knowlegde of world racing.
 
Now, who would be ranked world's best? You either have no knowledge of Australian racing history or you just love Europe! For a start, Northerly was a vastly superior galloper to world number 1 Grandera. He even confirmed this by toying with him in a Cox Plate.
 
30 years ago - Kingston Town head and shoulders the world's best horse. Not even you could argue that.
Since then, Bonecrusher was dominating in Aust/NZ as a 3yo & 4yo while Epsom Derby winners were running 2.35s with the pace on all the way. Vo Rogue was meeting all the criteria they want in their rankings - thrashing champions, running time, dominating from start to finish and getting no credit for it. Then there's Might And Power, Beau Zam, Makybe Diva (over a distance) and Northerly I've mentioned. If any of these horses ran in Europe, they would have, at one time or another, topped the world rankings.
 
Finally, I fully understand how the rankings work. That's how I know they don't work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 6:05pm
But hold on Goldikova answers all your credentials and they do not rate her on top in fact she does not rate in the top 53 despite winning a group 1 in the period in question, WHY Because the race did not rate high enough the the bare form of the race is not good ?

Northerly was probably the best horse on the planet when he won the Caulfield Cup and the Cox Plate within a week and the bare form would stand up to that.

Which individual races would allow Beau Zam and or Bonecrusher be rated on top in their era ?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 6:59pm
Betfair.com/horse-racing/bloggers/handicappers-corner-how-the-top-efforts-rate-around-the-130611.html" target="_blank">http://betting.Betfair.com/horse-racing/bloggers/handicappers-corner-how-the-top-efforts-rate-around-the-130611.html

Worth a read each week, even if you doubt the value.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smakman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 9:39pm
My point, which you continue to overlook, is that I suggest the practice of rating horses on one single performance is flawed. If you don't agree, so be it. But I refuse to believe you can rate a horse the best on the planet based on one spectacular performance.
But I'll ask you think - and I definitely rate So You Think - but how does he get a high rating based on beating rabbits in Ireland? And any ranking that rates Golidikova 53 in the world is laughable. It just reinforced my argument that these people have no idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2011 at 10:20pm
Firstly on Goldikova, How can she be rated any higher, unless somebody is doing it purely on emotion, the result was a low rater, who did she beat by an ever diminishing neck? She does not have any other form in the time frame to rank her on.

So You Think beat a multiple group 1 winner in Campanologist, Famous Name is a very consistent horse he has an official rating of 117 and it was 100% fair to assume he ran to that rating. So You Think is entitled to rate on the result of that race at 126+, There can be no argument with that unless you ( as in anybody ) believes Famous Name is over rated. He has won 12 races from 24 starts 23 at stakes level.

If you have a look at the form of Min Mon Lady it is not as poor as people will have you ( as in anybody) believe. She is a consistent 100 rater.  She was beaten about 2 lengths by the top class Banimpire prior to her trouncing by So You Think. She has since been beaten 9 lengths by Viscount Nelson. Viscount Nelson is a top class group horse.

Now this brings us to the ratings, why do our handicappers go to these get togethers with our horses rating so low. Pick a genuine group 3 horse in Australia and tell me what that horse rates and what OUR handicappers go to the handicappers forum with ?

If a horse in Europe is a genuine stakes class (listed+) horse they will rate a minimum of 100lbs.

Have a look at this seasons leading 2yos in Europe, they rate higher than or very near to our group 1 winning two year olds. This is a flaw in our handicappers ratings.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smakman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2011 at 9:43pm
Djebel! Are you reading your posts before pressing reply? Mid Mon Lady wouldn't win a Group 2 mares race in Australia with a head start. She has 3 wins from 32 starts, hasn't won in 16 starts over almost a year and generally runs in Listed and G3 races. Campanologist is a G1 performer if you rate the weak races won in Germany. Famous Name has a bit of talent but he hasn't won beyond G3 company. He's had 3 cracks at G1 level for two dismal failures and a distant third of 5 to SYT.
 
It's very hard to argue with you about ratings when you use the very ratings many of us reject to support your argument. These horses occasionally race in good class races and they usually get beaten. They are not topliners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote James0330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2011 at 9:52pm
Famous Name has run 2nd in the Prix du Jockey Club, Prix du Moulin and Tatterals Gold Cup, i'd hardly call those dismal failures Smakm.
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