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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 2:56pm
It's interesting that none of the big 4 from the Octagonal era are above 129.

Would have thought Filante rated highly for his Epsom win.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Agreed 11. Far too many anomalies in some of TFs ratings.
Yes - are they ever adjusted/re-evaluated after the careers are over ? Time can often put better perspective on performances / comparisons
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

WINX 134


I know the purists live this stuff - however a few stick out on that list as being dodgy. Tobin Bronze, American & Sepoy seem too high. Sunline & Makybe Diva too low. How could Sepoy be rated the equal of Sunline ? And inferior to the likes of Weekend Hustler/Hay list ?


Ratings are in pounds. Mares get 2kgs off males under race conditions. Therefore a 129 for a mare is the equivalent of a 133+ for a male.

Sepoy is an interesting one. Got it I presume for his dominant Manikato win, which personally I think was bias assisted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

WINX 134


I know the purists live this stuff - however a few stick out on that list as being dodgy. Tobin Bronze, American & Sepoy seem too high. Sunline & Makybe Diva too low. How could Sepoy be rated the equal of Sunline ? And inferior to the likes of Weekend Hustler/Hay list ?


Ratings are in pounds. Mares get 2kgs off males under race conditions. Therefore a 129 for a mare is the equivalent of a 133+ for a male.

Sepoy is an interesting one. Got it I presume for his dominant Manikato win, which personally I think was bias assisted.
Ok - that makes a bit more sense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:21pm
So where the hell and why for gods sake wasn't SKY HIGH on that list, to think they have got Lank Rup, Hey List and pardon me Weekend Hussler ahead of that horse I'll never know , still to each his own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:24pm
Oh lol....got another one All to Hard?.....over to you Steve Wonder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

So where the hell and why for gods sake wasn't SKY HIGH on that list, to think they have got Lank Rup, Hey List and pardon me Weekend Hussler ahead of that horse I'll never know , still to each his own.
Super Impose / Vo Rogue - does longevity count or is it purely based on their greatest performance/ few performances ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:29pm
22   Sepoy129  
22   Makybe Diva129  
22   Divide And Rule129  
22   Century129  
33   Grand Armee128  
33   Atlantic Jewel128  
33   Taj Rossi128  
33   Beau Zam128  
33   Bonecrusher128  
33   Saintly128  
33   Hareeba128  
33   Lonhro128  
33   Maybe Mahal128  
33   Schillaci128  
33   Super Impose128  
33   Vo Rogue128  
33   Luskin Star128  
33   Filante128  
33   Takeover Target128  
33   Sobar128  
33   Vinnie Roe128  
33   Whobegotyou128  
33   More Joyous128  
33   Foxwedge128  
33   Pierro128  
33   Ocean Park128  
33   Reliable Man128  
56   Buffering127  
56   Mental127  
56   Red Cardeaux127  
56   Juggler
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:29pm
Peak rating. It’s theoretically possible for a horse to have one start and be the highest rating horse in history. That’s why Octagonal is relatively low. A good CV, but he only ever just won. No big rating performances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:30pm
56   Mental127  
56   Red Cardeaux127  
56   Juggler127  
56   All Our Mob127  
56   Sacred Falls127  
56   Tontonan127  
56   Baguette127  
56   Dual Choice127  
56   Red Anchor127  
56   Emancipation127  
56   Naturalism127  
56   Doriemus127  
56   Shaftesbury Avenue127  
56   Testa Rossa127  
56   Rubitano127?  
56   Veandercross127  
56   Fastnet Rock127  
56   Mahogany127  
56   Desert War127  
56   Miss Andretti127  
56   Apache Cat127  
56   Helmet127  
56   Zipping127  
56   All Silent127  
81   Scenic Shot126  
81   Boban126  
81   Campaign King126  
81   Choisir126  
81   Citius126  
81   Epaulette126  
81   Eskimo Prince126  
81   Royal Sovereign126  
81   Defier126  
81   Exceed and Excel126  
81   Gurners Lane126  
81   Horlicks126  
81   Hyperno126  
81   Intergaze126  
81   Jeune126  
81   Let's Elope126  
81   Octagonal126  
81   Our Maizcay126  
81   Redoute's Choice126  
81   Rough Habit126  
81   Rubiton126  
81   Sir Dapper126  
81   Surround126  
81   Tie The Knot126  
81   Shogun Lodge126  
81   Grandera126  
81   Racing To Win126  
81   Marasco126  
81   PompeII Ruler126  
81   Viewed126  
81   Rangirangdo126  
81   Predatory Pricer126  
81   Mic Mac126  
81   Jimmy Choux126  
81   Manawanui (3yo)126  
81   Shoot Out126  
81   Shocking126  
81   Starspangledbanner (3yo)126  
81   Wanted (3yo)126  
81   Scenic Blast126  
81   Rain Affair126  
81   Jimmy Choux126  
81   Manighar126  
81   Mentality126?  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:33pm
Sobar...loved him. Never saw the best of him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:39pm
Not exactly "peak rating" as in what might seem to be "peak performance". It's a black art but conditions, times, field strength, performance relative to past results in the same/similar races etc are all factors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


Sobar...loved him. Never saw the best of him.

Quite right 1-1, ultra ultra, ya know Harry said he didn't feel well the start before he broke down, and he was right!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:43pm
Who trained Sobar?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:45pm
No rating for Jezabeel?
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Who trained Sobar?

Ken Hilton maybe??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Who trained Sobar?

Well I think ken Hilton but may have bee his foreman Brian Ralph , not sure but he trained all the kemball horses ( I think that's how you spell his name) Lord, Haveloch, Savoy, good sprinter Land , there were others all one name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 3:52pm
All had one worded names.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 4:00pm
Thanks gents. One of those horses you hear about but I guess due to his abbreviated career I can’t find much info on him. There’s another thread- horses cut down before their prime. I’ll get Jamal onto it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horlicks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Who trained Sobar?

Ken Hilton maybe??


Yes it was Ken Hilton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 6:52pm
Vinnie Roe?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TIGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 7:21pm
I don't take these horse ratings seriously

Half of the horses on that list are average at best

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by TIGER TIGER wrote:

I don't take these horse ratings seriously

Half of the horses on that list are average at best



Not one of those horses on that list is average.

Anybody name the worst group horse you can think of and you can be sure that horse is not average.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 8:18pm
Well not that I agree but I know people who dont rate Viewed (Timeform gave him a figure of 126)
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by TIGER TIGER wrote:

I don't take these horse ratings seriously

Half of the horses on that list are average at best



I agree with you Tiger.       BUT how do people rate a horse.

I think it was Cliff Carey said .      Rate a Race .       Then the Horses Rate themselves .
   Example =   Cox Plate 2017 ...     Course Record so the Race is to the top of G1 worth. . which in My scale is the imaginery Limit of 50 + 21 = 71 ( up or down 2K as you see fit )   Up 1 for the Course record of Winx   = 72 + 7k carried over the 50 limit =                     Final Rating 79
Humidor 72 less .5K beaten margin 71.5 plus 9K over limit carried = 80.5

Saturday 3rd Winx   71 less lower class 2 = 69 + 7k over limit carried =                                                                                                              Rating 76
   Prized Icon 69 less 7K beaten margin 62 + 9K over, carried= Rating 71

I wait for the day when Humidor does things right in a suitable race and justifies his high Cox Plate Rating.
       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 4:38am
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

Originally posted by TIGER TIGER wrote:

I don't take these horse ratings seriously

Half of the horses on that list are average at best



I agree with you Tiger.       BUT how do people rate a horse.

I think it was Cliff Carey said .      Rate a Race .       Then the Horses Rate themselves .
   Example =   Cox Plate 2017 ...     Course Record so the Race is to the top of G1 worth. . which in My scale is the imaginery Limit of 50 + 21 = 71 ( up or down 2K as you see fit )   Up 1 for the Course record of Winx   = 72 + 7k carried over the 50 limit =                     Final Rating 79
Humidor 72 less .5K beaten margin 71.5 plus 9K over limit carried = 80.5

Saturday 3rd Winx   71 less lower class 2 = 69 + 7k over limit carried =                                                                                                              Rating 76
   Prized Icon 69 less 7K beaten margin 62 + 9K over, carried= Rating 71

I wait for the day when Humidor does things right in a suitable race and justifies his high Cox Plate Rating.

That is what Timeform does
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 5:29am
Sepoy rated higher than lonhro


That'll do me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 5:48am
Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

Sepoy rated higher than lonhro


That'll do me
All Too Hard rated higher than both Lonhro and Saintly ??? Any credibility goes out the window right there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 8:01am
International ratings are a wank and historical comparisons are a wank with triple somersault and pike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 8:57am
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

Originally posted by TIGER TIGER wrote:

I don't take these horse ratings seriously

Half of the horses on that list are average at best



I agree with you Tiger.       BUT how do people rate a horse.

I think it was Cliff Carey said .      Rate a Race .       Then the Horses Rate themselves .
   Example =   Cox Plate 2017 ...     Course Record so the Race is to the top of G1 worth. . which in My scale is the imaginery Limit of 50 + 21 = 71 ( up or down 2K as you see fit )   Up 1 for the Course record of Winx   = 72 + 7k carried over the 50 limit =                     Final Rating 79
Humidor 72 less .5K beaten margin 71.5 plus 9K over limit carried = 80.5

Saturday 3rd Winx   71 less lower class 2 = 69 + 7k over limit carried =                                                                                                              Rating 76
   Prized Icon 69 less 7K beaten margin 62 + 9K over, carried= Rating 71

I wait for the day when Humidor does things right in a suitable race and justifies his high Cox Plate Rating.


That is what Timeform does


   Exactly PT...     He learn't his trade from the Don Scott involvement and become part of the Bible of Racing . Timeform .      Ratings are purely an individuals opinion where it is all put to numbers.
My first introduction to "ratings " was the great Cliff Carey   and his words were = There is (approx) 3K between each class.   > The bricks fall into place from there and unbiased judgement long before their next run , has their basic rating in place.
    Great way to stop the the brain drain of indecision.
Like you once said PT .. Things jump off the page at you when you give your time to form study and the more you study the luckier you become.
       
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