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Winx

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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 9:19pm
Atreus, do all your individual race ratings for a horse come out the same or are there fluctuations ?

reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:

You need to look at world form a bit closer. No Arc, no Japan Cup, no Dubai, no Hong Kong, no anything.  .


Let's talk the last decade.

Name all the genuine NH champions who competed overseas in races in Japan, Dubai and Hong Kong.

Name me all the champions who spent more time in the air than Winx did travelling in a float from Sydney to Melbourne.

Name me all the champions who didn't even cross the English Channel.

The ball's in you're court fella.  The world awaits.


Geez you weren't abusive? Well done on acting like an adult

Gentlidonna, Orfevre were top quality.

As Jamal would say So You Think ventured the world. He was found out to a degree but a champ after two easy plates (Qinx has 4 easy plates....nearly got beaten by Humidor

Is Best Solution a Superstar?
Is Benbatl a Superstar?

The fact is Japanese don't bother anymore as our tracks are wet far too often. Yet a barely G3 horse in Kluger towels up Happy Clapper who is apparently rated as a near superstar?

Seriously. Winx is amazing and deserves full credit. But her freakishness is vastly overrated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 9:38pm
Sorry, you haven't the least bit answered any of the questions put to you.  

But entirely par for the course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:

You need to look at world form a bit closer. No Arc, no Japan Cup, no Dubai, no Hong Kong, no anything.  .

Let's talk the last decade.

Name all the genuine NH champions who competed overseas in races in Japan, Dubai and Hong Kong.

Name me all the champions who spent more time in the air than Winx did travelling in a float from Sydney to Melbourne.

Name me all the champions who didn't even cross the English Channel.

The ball's in you're court fella.  The world awaits.

C'mon, SC. Surely you would concede the best horses beyond a sprint aren't here. I come back to a golf analogy- those in the USPGA don't really need to travel. If you're in the Australian PGA you can still be a champ, but far better opposition is overseas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 9:51pm
Here's Timeform's explanation of how they arrived at Winx's and Benbatl's ratings


Timeform is international, so why would they want to inflate the ratings of Winx's opponents to glorify Winx? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:



Seriously. Winx is amazing and deserves full credit. But her freakishness is vastly overrated.



reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:



Seriously. Winx is amazing and deserves full credit. But her freakishness is vastly overrated.





Confused  Whats your point here ??   Confused  After 20 odd pages.
You think she is over rated ??   Big smile
She is a freak but she is over rated ??    How do you over rate a freak ???   Thumbs Down  Totally lost the plot here .
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 11:31pm
Yes a tad overrated.

I didn't call her a freak. Was Caviar a freak?

Hall of Famer and deservedly so.

Best ever? (which you Winx maniacs keep pushing).

Not for me.

Possibly yes, but she wasn't given the opportunity as ran at our worst distance (until the raiders smash us every year in Cups)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 11:38pm
OK.   Best ever not for you, Chris.
So who do you have best ever ?
Who is your best ever racehorse ? 
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 11:39pm
PS,    back it up with facts , times, distance, type of track surface, way of going, and competitors. 
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 11:48pm
For me- Black Caviar and Winx assembled similarly freakish streaks.

Being what it is in this country, Black Caviar did it against much better horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by ChrisB ChrisB wrote:

Yes a tad overrated.

I didn't call her a freak. Was Caviar a freak?

Hall of Famer and deservedly so.

Best ever? (which you Winx maniacs keep pushing).

Not for me.

Possibly yes, but she wasn't given the opportunity as ran at our worst distance (until the raiders smash us every year in Cups)

You called Winx a freak on page 135 Chris. Stop lying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2019 at 11:58pm
The “ Winx maniacs” as you put it are 99% of people . Most people say she’s the best they’ve ever seen. Calling her the best ever is silly really because it’s impossible to compare horses from different eras . Certainly her record is extraordinary and puts her right up there with the greats of our racing history. She’s a freak because of her unique galloping style of quick strides coupled with her huge stamina . She could hold her speed longer than anything else I’ve seen. Winx is the only horse in my time that I can’t come up with a scenario that would see her beaten. I’d love to know where these miraculous international horses are who you think would give her a race because I’ve never seen them. Remember too her jockey says we don’t know how good she can be because he’d never got to the bottom of her. Yes she’s a freak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:05am
A question, Baguette- how much time in here did you spend sl*gging off Black Caviar? It's there in the search function if people want to have a look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:15am
Here's Baguette's assessment of Black Caviar, and seriously, it took two minutes to find:


I think the debate as to where Black Caviar rates in the history of our racing is a worthwhile one. Now that the hysterical hype of her racing days has died down a bit it may be time to look at her record logically.

Lots of horses have a better 2 and 3 year old record than her. In a country that has been breeding nearly exclusively for 2 year olds for around 30 years now this is when our horses face their stiffest competition, when the quality of the fields is at its deepest, before the top colts are bundled off to stud.

Lots of horses have a stellar record over a bigger range of distances than her. She is an exclusively 1200 and under horse. I refuse to count her farcical one race over 1400.

Lots of horses have better International record than her, So You Think and Takeover Target among them.

I guess it all comes back to her never being beaten and how much you rate her wins against very moderate opposition. At best she can be rated as the best 4 year old plus, 1200 under racehorse we have had for a while. She would never have beaten Vain or Luskin Star or even Miss Andretti at her best IMO. All of these were much better racehorses than poor unsound Hay List.

LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:20am
Love Baguette's opinion on international racing, compared to today.

Funny how the "never been beaten" didn't count for much back then.

But there's a lot more, if you could be bothered wading through that sort of drivel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:20am
Those 3 freaks being Caviar (imo the best), Makybe and Wind if you required clarity.

Spelling bad but means Winx.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:21am
In other words Baguette and co might as well be completely ignored.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:24am
Winx beat international standard horses. (if forgotten Buffering, Ortensia)

How many have competed or dodged Winx and won overseas or even been competitive?

Zero.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:24am
Baguette can't abide that a great horse might ever have come from outside Sydney. sl*gged off Lankan Rupee, if memory serves. Again, the search function will give great hilarity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:25am
Sorry
Caviar did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:27am
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Baguette can't abide that a great horse might ever have come from outside Sydney. sl*gged off Lankan Rupee, if memory serves. Again, the search function will give great hilarity.


I might look that up tomorrow for a laugh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:31am
People are worried about comments on Winx. I recall entire threads bagging Black Caviar. Funny that some of those calling BC a cotton wool champ, are now praising the Winx campaign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:36am
I missed a lot of that on here, but if there was a "cotton wool" champ it has Winx already engraved on a trophy before race even started.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 2:56am
djebel

I rate each run individually.  I don't massage any of the ratings as Timeform are obviously doing by boosting up horses that run 2nd to Winx.  So there are Fluctuations in the ratings.  Winx might get a 67 rating one day and a 60 rating another day on my ratings.  In fact the fluctuations are even wider than that for Winx

However when I look at all the ratings for Winx together there is no doubt she is a great horse as she can churn out high rating runs like no other horse.  Actually I lie.  There was one horse in the last few years who did came close to Winx and that was Jameka.  Jameka's top 3 runs would only fall 1 point short of Winx's top 3 runs.  However Winx's 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th etc rated runs are much higher than Jameka's equivalent runs

So overall Winx is the best horse of the last few years but I don't think she had much on Jameka when both were at their best.  Which is just one of the reasons I am sceptical about Winx's 33 race winning streak.  Even if Winx is a great horse I don't believe you can win 33 in a row if the opposition are giving 100%.  No horse has that much of a margin over the opposition.  Occasionally either bad luck in running or another horse pulling out a big run should beat you

One last point.  It is easier in Australia to be a top 2000m horse than a top 1200m horse as Australia has a lot more depth in sprints (obviously)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 11:24am
"Jameka's top 3 runs would only fall 1 point short of Winx's top 3 runs"

Jameka was a very good horse but to rate any of her top 3 runs within 1 point of Winx's top 3 is ludicrous.

First of all Timeform and world's best racehorse etc are ridiculous when they take the highest single race performance. Was it Arrogant(?) that they had as top horse in last few years when he was way out of form all down to one supposedly great performance.

Whilst Jameka would have been an interesting competitor for Winx we already have form lines that suggest she would not get close to her unless Winx was pushed out to 2400m and was unable to cope.

Turnbull 2016-Hartnell delivers a masterclass in beating Jameka by 3.5 lengths. Jameka comes out next start and wins Caulfield Cup. Hartnell goes on to finish 8 length 2nd to Winx in Cox Plate in the most emphatic, demoralising fashion.

Many, don't rank Hartnell as any good (but facts are in that year he was youthful and at the top of his game) in order to denigrate Winx. So I expect those same people to come on here and bag you for claiming Jameka was better than Hartnell and within a length or point of Winx.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 11:34am
Originally posted by kavg kavg wrote:

"Jameka's top 3 runs would only fall 1 point short of Winx's top 3 runs"

Jameka was a very good horse but to rate any of her top 3 runs within 1 point of Winx's top 3 is ludicrous.

First of all Timeform and world's best racehorse etc are ridiculous when they take the highest single race performance. Was it Arrogant(?) that they had as top horse in last few years when he was way out of form all down to one supposedly great performance.

Whilst Jameka would have been an interesting competitor for Winx we already have form lines that suggest she would not get close to her unless Winx was pushed out to 2400m and was unable to cope.

Turnbull 2016-Hartnell delivers a masterclass in beating Jameka by 3.5 lengths. Jameka comes out next start and wins Caulfield Cup. Hartnell goes on to finish 8 length 2nd to Winx in Cox Plate in the most emphatic, demoralising fashion.

Many, don't rank Hartnell as any good (but facts are in that year he was youthful and at the top of his game) in order to denigrate Winx. So I expect those same people to come on here and bag you for claiming Jameka was better than Hartnell and within a length or point of Winx.




I cannot conceive of any race on any track on any track rating over any distance where Jameka would trouble Winx. Heavy 10@2400m would be her best shot but she would only have a chance if Winx didn't stay and I suspect that she would.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

She was a long way off her best today, which I am gauging by the narrow margin to the mediocre runner-up and the mediocre time. Timeform will no doubt agree with me.

I think she is giving clear indication this week that she's had enough so a perfect time to finish


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 11:46am
What clear indication would that be
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

What clear indication would that be

Her foul temper.
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