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Why are Australian bred stayers slow?

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Speediskey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Speediskey Speediskey wrote:

Originally posted by Formerly Kincsem Formerly Kincsem wrote:

The middle distance 3yo is celebrated in Europe and seemingly well supported at stud. Unfortunately we are obsessed with 2yo sprinters to the absolute detriment of the overall quality. I think our middle distance/staying stock has gotten increasingly worse over the past 20 years. I have very little interest in any form of 2yo racing and think you could turn around the disparity if 2yo prize money was greatly reduced (fields would not change) and a few more viable G1 and G2 2000-2400m races were introduced. 

In the short term we would get pummeled by imports and internationals but the tide would slowly turn. We also desperately need a star middle distance sire ala See the Stars.



Isn't there already far more money in middle-long distance three year old racing than sprint 2/3yo racing in Australia?

Cursory glance the Group 1's

2-3yo Sprint G1's (Throw in Millions and new Easter race)

Blue Diamond
Golden Slipper
Sires Produce
Magic Million
Inglis Millenium
Coolmore
Golden Rose*

2-3yo Middle-Long Distance G1's

Champagne Stakes
JJ Atkins
Caulfield Guineas
Flight Stakes
Spring Champion*
Thousand Guineas
VRC Derby
VRC Oaks*
Randwick Guineas
Vinery 
Rosehill Guineas*
ATC Derby 
ATC Oaks
QLD Derby
QLD Oaks
SA Oaks
SA Derby



May have forgotten some from either list.

*Ones I missed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by goldey goldey wrote:

Originally posted by goldey goldey wrote:

Japan can breed a good stayer and they have 2yo racing over 2000m later in the season .

Pretty sure its maybe the Hopeful Stakes in December is a 2000m Group 1 for colts only , shows we are a bit behind the eight ball as the middle distance compared to Jpan , mind you not sure of their attrition rate of their young horses .

And you won't either , they have a varied diet, some may spell and be put on the o/s market as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 9:48pm
I know, when i did the sums i thought what an earner!

I will find out more.

but in the meantime perhaps the Mistable site can explain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 10:00pm
Could our breeding numbers each year be far less than the UK & Europe .

I think we own the best to 2000m.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 8:00am
Maccamax we bred more each year than England, Ireland and France together.  We have more flat races than England Ireland and France.  THey have a jumping group also in the numbers bred so we are way in front on that count.  We do have stayers in our midst.  Not every stayer has to be at home waiting for their three year old career.  Racing as a two year old has been proven to be beneficial.  But while these types in Europe (and obviously Japan) race out over 1600 to 2200m possibly even further.  We treat them with kid gloves and have a few 1600m and maybe one or two others.  These races are available to the stayers overseas most weeks from July on in their two year old year.  Some have small fields some don't.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 8:36am
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

   Could our breeding numbers each year be far less than the UK & Europe .

I think we own the best to 2000m.


Lol. Our two big Spring mile races were just won by imports- who themselves would be panels off the best from overseas, I’d imagine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 8:55am
Who cares if overseas horses are winning , its good , hopefully puts the blow torch to the breeding industry to change which i assume with the money lovers running the big studs and the horse lovers running the smaller studs , no change in the immediate future , ao we need to get used yo the current situation of international exposure and domestic unrest .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 9:04am
I can't remember colts winning one race then being worth megabucks back in the day.  Are potential sires worth relatively worth these days than they were back in the 70s and 80s? Is that related to a sire serving more mares these days? When did the 200 mares per season sire deal start up?

But if the increased sire value is a function of more service fees per season, won't there be a corresponding limiting factor- the number of mares and mare owner willing to pay big bucks for a service?

Don't mind me. I'm just thinking out loud.
"Even the things that I believe in the most, I doubt.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

I can't remember colts winning one race then being worth megabucks back in the day.  Are potential sires worth relatively worth these days than they were back in the 70s and 80s? Is that related to a sire serving more mares these days? When did the 200 mares per season sire deal start up?

But if the increased sire value is a function of more service fees per season, won't there be a corresponding limiting factor- the number of mares and mare owner willing to pay big bucks for a service?

Don't mind me. I'm just thinking out loud.
I'm not a breeder but the huge jump in mare numbers per stallion happened as soon as it was possible to identify exactly when the mare ovulated. Things like untra sounds I believe but you'd have to ask the breeders that one! Mares are in season and will stand for the stallion for up to a week and actually ovulate at some point in that time. To ensure that sperm met egg in the old days the stallion had to serve each individual mare at the very least every second day of their season. That's why a stallion like Star Kingdom would've had a book of around 60-70 individual mares. And of course that number of service fees. These days they know exactly when the mare is fertile so can usually get away with one service per mare to get the job done. A stallions earning capacity has tripled since the old days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

I can't remember colts winning one race then being worth megabucks back in the day.  Are potential sires worth relatively worth these days than they were back in the 70s and 80s? Is that related to a sire serving more mares these days? When did the 200 mares per season sire deal start up?

But if the increased sire value is a function of more service fees per season, won't there be a corresponding limiting factor- the number of mares and mare owner willing to pay big bucks for a service?

Don't mind me. I'm just thinking out loud.


He was one of a very few but Angus Armanasco had a lot of colts go to stud after short careers. Bletchingly was one.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 9:52am
True call , vets are after ae close to 50mm Folicle , they inject the mare to help sometimes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 10:06am
Star Kingdom served about 40 at the most each year.  Even Marscay never saw the big crops - he was at the tail end of the previous practice I guess.

Today you do have good stallions who just can't get big crops and the studs don't hold on to them for long.  Pity after they have been sold to Thailand or somewhere in Asia up comes that very good G1 winner.  We've seen some first season sires serving over 100 G1 style mares.  Winners of G1, dams of G1 winners etc.  Yet these stallions don't always make it.  We have seen plenty of our Oaks or staying bred fillies or even our spring mares sent overseas and then produce G1 winners who have Classics, Cups and even a World Cup to their names.  The class is already here folks we just are not working right.  Whether that is because of training are the courses they run on.  I don't know!

For every right there seems to be a wrong.  Many here disliked the style of Smith - it broke down horses.  Yet he could train them to sprint or stay and had two of the greatest in his era.  Cummings won plenty of Golden Slippers or two year old races.  Patient he may of been but if they were ready he raced them!  

Are our trainers going gentle because of the social media?  There are some clean winded horses who race best fresh.  Kingston Town being one of them.  Probably the injury as a 3yo kept him racing as Tommy couldn't train him hard.  But have we lost that breed of horse.  Or are we just consistently underweighting the runners from overseas.

Three open age G1's and 57.5 and no rehandicap after the Caulfield Cup just wouldn't happen with an Australian horse.  He gave 2.5 kilos to Ace High who had two three year old G1's too his name.  So Ace High had to carry 4 kilos more than the winner without a G1 open race to his name.  The winner a colt had 1/2 kilo less than Younstar with her one 3yo G1 win.  Colt-filly.  We call 4yo's horses and mares.  Overseas they are still colts and fillies.  Still unseasoned and treated that way.  So yes we aren't getting ours in and weighting the overseas runners more won't help with that but just saying that sometimes other things matter also in a handicap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 10:46am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

I can't remember colts winning one race then being worth megabucks back in the day.  Are potential sires worth relatively worth these days than they were back in the 70s and 80s? Is that related to a sire serving more mares these days? When did the 200 mares per season sire deal start up?

But if the increased sire value is a function of more service fees per season, won't there be a corresponding limiting factor- the number of mares and mare owner willing to pay big bucks for a service?

Don't mind me. I'm just thinking out loud.


He was one of a very few but Angus Armanasco had a lot of colts go to stud after short careers. Bletchingly was one.


That's because some had leg problems or bled, fwiw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 10:54am
Ok another thing.  Race clubs don't understand anything on the horse side.  Mostly interesting in the betting side.  Now you have a young stayer.  Not ready for open class.  Not ready for stakes class.  But where do you run it!  Very few two or three year old races open to these style of horses!  They do occasionally try something with the older brigade but even those don't last long.  Due to small fields with little betting turnover.  But if the races were set up it would take at least three years for even the two year olds to turn up in numbers.  People are breeding for speed due to that being pretty well all the racing we have.  In England they have a two year old race for sires who won stakes over 10f!  Can you imagine the outcry in Australia.  Unless you stood one of the Melbourne Cup winners or a Cpx Plate winner etc.  What's wrong with thinking outside the box.  We have followed Europe in ratings but they mostly race to SW and WFA.  It's the USA who race with handicaps.  That is causing issues with weighting of horses coming in from Europe also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 11:29am
I think the bottom line is back in the old days the only way for owners to make good money with their colts was to win stake money. And the big stake money was in the longer races , Cox Plate Caulfield Cup Melbourne Cup or even the big mile races. You could expect a good stud deal if your horse won good races but the amount of money studs were prepared to pay wasn't anywhere near what they are today and didn't trump potential prize money necessarily. Stallions at stud weren't the walking money machines they are today. So naturally yearling buyers back then were looking for horses who could get over ground. These days a colt wins the Golden Slipper and he's worth 20 million at least , much more than he ever could win on the track. So obviously early maturing sprinters are what the buyers want. Our racing has evolved and changed . There's not a great deal the racing clubs can do about it. You can put all the staying races on you want but I doubt it will change the basic problem that people just don't want to buy staying types these days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 11:39am
Maybe they could think outside the square (as in the two mountains in Sydney) and have a two year old race for sires who have won above 2400m in the Autumn at 2000m.  Then a three year old equivilent in the spring etc over 2400m.  Have a few lead ups to gain entry as in the Country races leading to Sydney in the Autumn.  Give some glory to the stayers other than just the Cups or Classics.  Bring them back out to the people.  Would have to have good funding behind it to get anywhere but boy studs with Fiorente or American or their like would be rubbing there hands in delight.  Give these stallions something to work with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 12:47pm
I see exactly where your coming from Furious but honestly the people you have to convince are the ones who pay the bills and that's the owners. It seems to me that the rise of huge stud deals has coincided with the rise of syndication, whether it's the big Syndication Company's or trainers buying horses to syndicate amongst their clients . They'll tell you that it's easier to sell shares in an early maturing sprinting type than one that needs a bit of time. And as they dominate that middle range at the yearling sales they have a huge impact on the type of horse bred. These Melbourne Cup winning stallions are beautiful horses but they can't produce top class racehorses on their own . They need the good broodmares to be put to them , but they're all going to Snitzel or the latest Gokden Slipper winner. It's all financial and supply and demand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 3:16pm
Just a question to everyone...


How would Bart Cummings go in this day and age in terms of the Cauldield and Melbourne Cups?

Would he struggle like our trainers are no due to thelarge amount of ovwrseas trained horses running in these races?
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SkyDancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Just a question to everyone...


How would Bart Cummings go in this day and age in terms of the Cauldield and Melbourne Cups?

Would he struggle like our trainers are no due to thelarge amount of ovwrseas trained horses running in these races?


Would be lucky to train a winner at Newcastle
IT'S OKAY TO SAY NO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by SkyDancer SkyDancer wrote:

Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Just a question to everyone...


How would Bart Cummings go in this day and age in terms of the Cauldield and Melbourne Cups?

Would he struggle like our trainers are no due to thelarge amount of ovwrseas trained horses running in these races?


Would be lucky to train a winner at Newcastle



Why do yo say that? Explain your answer in writing.
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 4:27pm
One could say he got the best our of So You Think before O'Brien a great trainer learnt to change his style.  That was well into Barts senior years so I'd say he'd still be kicking goals with the right horses.
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