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Who would you breed this mare to?

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ianb View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 May 2017 at 4:25pm
I have a placed Haradasun mare who is a maiden   She is out of a lovely family and is a half sister to a group 3 winning NZ 2yo of this season. Her name is Shiba Sakura and is from the family of Zamzam, Thunder Lady etc.
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SHIBA SAKURA (AUS)Bay filly 2011 
Haradasun
Bay 2003
Fusaichi Pegasus
Bay 1997
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Chestnut 1961
Native Dancer
Raise You
1950
1946
5-f
8-f
Gold Digger
Bay 1962
Nashua
Sequence
1952
1946
3-m
13-c
Angel Fever
Bay 1990
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Rowdy Angel
Bay 1979
Halo
Ramhyde
1969
1972
2-d
8-c
Circles of Gold
Chestnut 1991
Marscay
Chestnut 1979
Biscay
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Magic Symbol
1946
1956
1-g
2-o
Heart of Market
Bay 1967
To Market
Accroche Coeur
1948
1959
10-a
4-m
Olympic Aim
Chestnut 1983
Zamazaan
Chestnut 1965
Exbury
Toyama
1959
1955
2-f
7>
Gold Vink
Chestnut 1966
Gold Sovereign
Goudvink
1957
1954
14-b
22-b
Fleur de l'Orient
Bay or brown 2000
Thunder Gulch
Chestnut 1992
Gulch
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Jameela
Bay or brown 1976
Rambunctious
Asbury Mary
1960
1969
19>
A4
Line of Thunder
Bay 1987
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
Shoot a Line
Bay 1977
High Line
Death Ray
1966
1959
5-e
11-d
Fleur de Chine
Bay or brown 1993
Centaine
Brown 1980
Century
Brown 1969
Better Boy
Royal Suite
1951
1960
2-n
20>
Rainbeam
Bay 1973
Vain
Rain Shadow
1966
1967
A10
C7
Sellou
Brown 1982
Sound Reason
Bay or brown 1974
Bold Reason
New Tune
1968
1968
19-b
21-a
Sanderae
Bay 1967
Oncidium
Nell
1961
1959
16-b
4-b
 Ancestor duplications:Mr Prospector3m x 4m Northern Dancer5m x 5m


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 4:35pm
Unnamed  
Roman Emperor (NZ)
Brown 2005
Montjeu
Bay 1996
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Floripedes
Bay 1985
Top Ville
Bay 1976
High Top
Sega Ville
1969
1968
11-a
8-i
Toute Cy
Bay 1979
Tennyson
Adele Toumignon
1970
1971
1-t
1-u
Gussy Godiva
Bay 1998
Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983
Try My Best
Bay 1975
Northern Dancer
Sex Appeal
1961
1970
2-d
8-f
Mill Princess
Bay 1977
Mill Reef
Irish Lass
1968
1962
22-d
8-c
Sneetch
Bay 1991
Grosvenor
Bay 1979
Sir Tristram
My Tricia
1971
1974
6-e
8>
Sellou
Brown 1982
Sound Reason
Sanderae
1974
1967
21-a
4-b
Fleur de l'Orient (NZ)
Bay or brown 2000
Thunder Gulch
Chestnut 1992
Gulch
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Jameela
Bay or brown 1976
Rambunctious
Asbury Mary
1960
1969
19>
A4
Line of Thunder
Bay 1987
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
Shoot a Line
Bay 1977
High Line
Death Ray
1966
1959
5-e
11-d
Fleur de Chine
Bay or brown 1993
Centaine
Brown 1980
Century
Brown 1969
Better Boy
Royal Suite
1951
1960
2-n
20>
Rainbeam
Bay 1973
Vain
Rain Shadow
1966
1967
A10
C7
Sellou
Brown 1982
Sound Reason
Bay or brown 1974
Bold Reason
New Tune
1968
1968
19-b
21-a
Sanderae
Bay 1967
Oncidium
Nell
1961
1959
16-b
4-b
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m,5m x 5m Bold Reason5f x 5m Sellou4f x 3f


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 4:52pm

Unnamed
  
Roman Emperor (NZ)
Brown 2005
Montjeu
Bay 1996
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Floripedes
Bay 1985
Top Ville
Bay 1976
High Top
Sega Ville
1969
1968
11-a
8-i
Toute Cy
Bay 1979
Tennyson
Adele Toumignon
1970
1971
1-t
1-u
Gussy Godiva
Bay 1998
Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983
Try My Best
Bay 1975
Northern Dancer
Sex Appeal
1961
1970
2-d
8-f
Mill Princess
Bay 1977
Mill Reef
Irish Lass
1968
1962
22-d
8-c
Sneetch
Bay 1991
Grosvenor
Bay 1979
Sir Tristram
My Tricia
1971
1974
6-e
8>
Sellou
Brown 1982
Sound Reason
Sanderae
1974
1967
21-a
4-b
Shiba Sakura (AUS)
Bay 2011
Haradasun
Bay 2003
Fusaichi Pegasus
Bay 1997
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Angel Fever
Bay 1990
Danzig
Rowdy Angel
1977
1979
7-a
8-c
Circles of Gold
Chestnut 1991
Marscay
Chestnut 1979
Biscay
Heart of Market
1965
1967
2-o
4-m
Olympic Aim
Chestnut 1983
Zamazaan
Gold Vink
1965
1966
7>
22-b
Fleur de l'Orient
Bay or brown 2000
Thunder Gulch
Chestnut 1992
Gulch
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Jameela
1970
1976
13-c
A4
Line of Thunder
Bay 1987
Storm Bird
Shoot a Line
1978
1977
4-j
11-d
Fleur de Chine
Bay or brown 1993
Centaine
Brown 1980
Century
Rainbeam
1969
1973
20>
C7
Sellou
Brown 1982
Sound Reason
Sanderae
1974
1967
21-a
4-b
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m,5m x Sellou4f x 4f Mr Prospectorx 4m,5m


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Progold View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:14pm
Are you selling or racing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:17pm
Shows you I'm on holidays wondered why you posted it twice Djebel!  For such a staying family I'm amazed no Zabeel is present yet either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:44pm
Zabeel is the sire of Sufficient from this family who won at 1600m.  Londehero by Lonhro was nominated for the Doomben 10000, so not just a family of stayers.  Her half sister won over 1200m as a 2yo and is by Zed, a son of Zabeel, but not necessarily of the staying variety I would suggest.  Zed is closely related to Octagonal and out of a Danehill mare.

Ian can tell us, but I have my doubts that the mare is too much of a staying type.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:44pm
Furious, one appears to be a match with the mare, the other with her mother (maybe a mistake).

Found the mare desperately hard to match, particularly given she's situated in Queensland, and that might be why an industry professional like ianb has sought advice.  

Given the mare's family history in stakes races you could arguably do worse than look for a sire containing Zabeel or Sir T, or alternatively seek some Thunder Gulch/Mr Prospector blood.  Both are hard to find in Oz, and most are way down south - Reset, Kuroshio and the new sire Mshawish for example.

So in essence am happy to pass the baton back to you, Progold, and everyone else willing to express an opinion.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:51pm
Yes, Sorry people the first theoretical pedigree was a mistake, the dam rather than the mare herself.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:55pm
Progold posted about the same time as mine, and his offering provides the opportunity to add to my effort.

If just to say that the Zabeel influence can probably be best be sought via Lonhro and his sons.  And I initially went down that path to discover that doing so can come at a cost which might be beyond what some might consider appropriate for the mare in question. 

Again, back to others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:56pm
I just took a look at her race record and those of her sblings, not many of them seem to have won over a distance. The mate herself flopped badly at 2 goes at the mil
Struck me as odd given he pedigree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:58pm
Re write


I just took a look at her race record and those of her siblings, not many of them seem to have won over a distance. The mare herself flopped badly at 2 goes at the mile
Struck me as odd given he pedigree
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ianb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 9:44pm
On type she is quite a good sized mare, when I purchased her I was told by others she was a different to most of the female side who are predominately small apparently. With her race results she initially showed Matt Kropp a tonne of ability, I started enquiries about her after she ran down the track in toowoomba. She was hit with grass clods a few times and started sucking wind through the vagina and obviously gave up the whole race horse idea.   Ideally I would send her to something commercial. I am not a big fan of Holy Roman Emperor, Rothesay appeals but not really for the ring. I would really like a proven horse that is affordable for a stud workers wage. A Snitzel stallion I thought would be ok and even Attention would suit her
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 10:31pm
Just an interesting thought, may not mean much but when I looked at Shiba Sakura's pedigree and saw she was by F Peg I went looking for successful crosses and Capitalist is one that comes to mind. I also noticed the Vain in capitalist's pedigree (found also in Shiba's pedigree) that has been found to be successful quite a few times when crossed with Last Tycoon and Snippets bloodlines, these include All Too Hard, Black Caviar, SooBoog, Stratum Star etc so dejebel's suggestion is pretty good. 
another one that  you might want to consider is Holler, he is the from the same family as Written Tycoon (sire of Capitalist) he is by commands, same family as Octagonal and others that have worked well when crossed with Zabeel and Holler has Sir Ivor x 2 and Sir Tristram in his pedigree but he is a bit pricey though so it depends greatly on what your budget is 

ZAMINGA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 11:15pm
A couple of quick thoughts.  

Red Dazzler is a solid option, but will probably struggle a bit in the sales ring.  Decent pedigree page, so if a nice type in a friendly sale it could surprise.  More likely to get a mile, and if the mare has a bit of scope, this should suit.

Bel Esprit at the higher end could make a sales prospect but obviously conformation is a key here.  With the Vain focus, I wouldn't expect the progeny to get more than 1400m, but if the mare looks more this type, then it would be easy to lean this way, especially with a more commercial focus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2017 at 12:34am
I dont mind Statue of Liberty for her , gives a sex balanced cross of Storm Bird which ties into Sound Reason also , could he do a Written Tycoon in Qld .Icould entertain Husson also for obvious reasons .Good luck with her Ian , very nice family to play with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2017 at 1:44am
I know you don't like hre but he would probably be the most commercial sire in Qld and not a bad stud record either with nearly 6% SW/r they love him in HK.



Then there my old fav Domesday, sitting on 60% w/r and 3% SW/r and the majority of them in the much stronger states of Vic and nsw.



Its pretty tough out there for small breeders, most stallions with a good record are expensive and the unproven ones that smelt the arse of a group one winner are even way overpriced.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ianb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2017 at 11:22am
My thoughts on HRE are that he bred the cream of the mares when at Coolmore at $66k and really didn't set the world on fire, I don't think BIG trainers are that forgiving if they paid big money for the progeny. Domesday is a good horse and I do like Statue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2017 at 12:14pm
Well Djebel above gave you a female cross.  I think it's a female line which has produced some very good staying types so something like Sadler's Wells, Zabeel etc wouldn't be bad.

Or you can go for the sprinter with staying blood.  Sovereign Edition and Ahonoora/Fairy King in Spill the Beans give an interesting mix of blood which could go either way in that plenty of speed and stamina have been produced from his female line and Snitzel himself has sired some stayers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breeder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2017 at 5:03pm
How about Casino Prince ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2017 at 10:18pm
The best in the recent pedigree would have to be Tully Thunder
I'm no expert on this stuff so how do you go about getting some of that Thundet Gulch into her?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2017 at 11:34am
I'm with Djebel...

Roman Emperor looks good on paper. For my 2 cents worth, no scientific studies but I have noticed that often, female lines that lose some vitality enjoy a close up return of a potent ancestor to re-establish some sort of rejuvenation. 

Shiba Sakura showed some ability, being placed 4 times from 13 starts and her dam Fleur De L'Orient produced 3 winners from 6 runners including recent 2yo G3 winner Irish Flame. This is a far cry from 3rd dam Fleur de Chine, a G2 winner who produced 10 winners from 13 runners including Listed winner Sufficient and G1 winner Tully Thunder (Australasian Oaks, South Australian Oaks).

The next dam back, Sellou was unraced but bred 4 winners from 5 starts including G3 winner, G1 placed Sneetch (NZ Oaks, granddam of Roman Emperor), Fleur De Chine and G3 placed Sandarac. 

The key to this puzzle may be Sellou by Bold Reason's son Sound Reason. Roman Emperor's 3rd dam is of course Sellou thereby giving a 4x4 cross to the mating. There is a reinforcement of Sellou's sire line as Roman Emperor brings in another line of Bold Reason as damsire of Sadler's Wells and also brings greater than half brother Never Bend as sire of Mill Reef. 

Could be off track here, often am but something to think about. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 1:36pm
Congratulations ianb on obtaining this mare, i think you have brought into a wonderful family. It is a family that I am very interested in as I have a friend who breeds from a daughter of Tully Thunder (brought on my recommendation,)  Roman Emperor was designed on this software (nothing to do with me ) and I race a horse that has won two from two by Sufficient.

First of all I shall explain a little on how I would go about planning the mating for Shiba. 

The most prolific stats I have seen in the production of Group One winners comes from a pattern 'or technique' that is similar in Sir Tristram, Zabeel and Redoute's Choice and that is when the top line of the mare is matched with the bottom line of the stallion.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 1:53pm
The next step after matching the stallions female line I would match the names on the 'male lines of the mares'  with the 'brood-mare sires' in the stallion.

A great example of this and close to what I would term a 'perfect pedigree' is below.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 1:59pm
Regarded by many as the fastest horse of all time, he also carries the pattern.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 2:10pm
And although very deep this horse's pedigree contains the above pattern, 'the female line of the stallion' 
has been duplicated with the 1st dam.


..and the male lines of the dams lower in the pedigree match ' the broodmare sires ' in Star Kingdom, and his own brood-mare sire Concerto.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 2:20pm
So returning to Shiba Sukura.. below are the places (the male lines of the dams in her pedigree) I would look at first, and try and incorporate these into the planned mating in order to give you the greatest result.

My belief is simple in that each dam has a bias to their opposite sex.  I have used this 'belief ' to plan the mating of several Group One performers.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 2:57pm
So the horse that I would be trying to copy or base the planned mating around is Flying Artie. He is a horse that to my mind is 'line bred' to this wonderful Bruce Lowe #13 family.  And your mare is similar to his dam.

In simple terms he is out of a mare that has two male lines ( YOUR MARE HAS THREE ) that trace to the # 13 family that was sent to a stallion that descends in direct female line to the #13 family.   Top line of the mare with the bottom line of the stallion with the common ancestor being the mare Frizette. I have moved Tourbillon forward on the male line for easier viewing.



To my mind and plenty of others on this forum, this family is some of the best blood around.  Desirable traits in Flying Artie are that he was extremely fast and early maturing. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 3:15pm
If out of your budget range , I hope you come into funds and can consider the mating.  Alternatives are to bring a partners in.  Pluses are that he is a proven sire. 

Below is the mating of ...  FLYING SHIBA     Artie Schiller / Shiba Sukura 


As well as the top line of the mare with the bottom line of the stallion I love the Mr Prospector line mare with a Northern Dancer stallion (this duplicates Northern Dancer's brood-mare sire Native Dancer) so TWO patterns here.

Completing the mating and just as important as the line breeding in the centre of the pedigree is the duplication of Bold Reason on the male line of Sellou and as the sire of Sadler's Well's dam.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 9:16am
Your mare's dam FLEUR DE L'ORIENT has a very similar profile to the dam of my mare, DE CHORUS, being by Mr. Prospector line stallions out of Centaine mares. De Chorus' best two to date would be Siren's Fury who is twice listed placed, and Hot King Prawn who is one from one in Hong Kong.

I think Denman, sire of HKP, could work quite well. He has the Mr P, Vain and Marscay blood found in your mare, and looking at common ancestors in his best progeny you see a handful that match your mare - Mr P (Denpurr, Kuro, Deja Blue, Merriest, Fitocracy), Storm Bird (Denpurr, Law), Biscay (Denpurr, Merriest)
Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren & Speed Hero.
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