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What horses NOT to duplicate in a pedigree

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Flurry View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jun 2008 at 5:59pm
I would love to be able to source somewhere what duplications not to do. It is great to do matings on pedigree and type - but I dont have enough knowledge of ancestors to know if i am duplicating and therefore enhancing , faults. I know many of the current horses ie I would never duplicate the Rubiton and Euclase due to their bad feet and legs. I would not duplicate Circles of Gold in future matings. I have heard it is not good to duplicate Princiquillo too many times? Sir Tristram had temperament problems yet Zabeel dosent. Any ideas?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2008 at 6:11pm
Princequillo was a source of toughness and class.

http://www.reines-de-course.com/princequillo.htm

Picked up Nasrullah well who was temperamental. Played up before the start of a race, raced well until he got to the lead and then thought it was all over. The two balanced well. Never too much Princequillo IMHO

http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/pedigree-study.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2008 at 7:06pm
Flurry, its interesting you should say Sir Tristram has temperament problems and Zabeel does not. If i am not mistaken NUREYEV was very notorious for his poor temperament wasn't he ?
 
Wonder where his kind nature comes from ?
 
Why are so many Zabeels gelded ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2008 at 7:46pm
Princequillo is another version of Danehill compare the two's pedigree and look at the female families like 11-c in Princequillo and 2-d in danehill.
 
Duplicating Danzig and Danehill close up like within 4 or 5 generations is not a good idea but later on when its 7 or 8 generations back then it could turn into a good duplication like Princequillo.
 
The reason why Zabeel horses are gelded maybe because early proformers dicate the industry, having a horse that starts racing at the age of 3 is not regarded as a good stallion prospect so alot of them get gelded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2008 at 8:01pm
Man o war was a good natured horse but his line is continued on by mostly stallions he sired that were known for their tempers.
 
Seabiscuit was by a sire infamous for his temper, but the biscuit was good natured until he was provoked into being mean
 
So Zabeel probably got his good nature from his dam line.
 
Give me back the days of Ribot and Nasrullah, we are breeding with pussy cats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sadlers wells Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2008 at 8:46pm
how much of one horse is to much my mare has 2 dup of northern dancer most stallions have at least 2 as well eg when mated to Excellant Art ND 5m,6mx3m,5m B Ruler 5mx6f Lyphard 5fx4m Special 5mx4f Nat Dancer 6mx5f or Snowland Northern Dancer 5m,5mx3m,5m Tom Fool 5m,6mx Thong6mx5f Forl 6mx5f Hyperion 6mx6f also when choosing mares to duplicate would you you go for special or her dam Thong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nazareth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 3:06am
I agree with Nostradamus, ya can't have too much Man O'War, esp. as he is well back in any pedigree these days. Strength and speed !!.
 
Man o'War stood his first stud season at Hinata Farm, then the following year moved to Faraway Farm where he joined an old acquaintance Golden Broom. His groom at Faraway was Will Harbut who came to be closely associated with the horse. Harbut gladly showed the stallion to farm visitors and spoke at length of Man o'War's victories. Before long, Harbut's words were picked up through national magazines, and the whole country was quoting his now famous phrase "He wuz de mostest hoss... "

Man o'War was an outstanding sire, and might have been even better if Riddle had offered more than a handful of public seasons each year. Some of his famous offspring are WAR ADMIRAL, CRUSADER, AMERICAN FLAG, BATEAU, MARS, MAID AT ARMS, CLYDE VAN DUSEN, WAR RELIC, and BATTLESHIP (who won the Grand National Steeplechase at Aintree England even though they said he was too small to be a good jumper.) One of his famous grandsons was SEABISCUIT  (by Hard Tack, with the foul temper)

Man o'War died quietly on November 1, 1947 at the age of 30. He was embalmed and lay in state for three days while his final resting place was prepared in a portion of his old paddock. He was lowered into a moated enclosure, beneath a green marble pedestal from which rose Herbert Hazeltine's heroic bronze statue of the champion. Man o'War was eventually moved to the Kentucky Horse Park, where the original burial site was faithfully recreated. More than 50 years after his death, he still attracts thousands of visitors anually. And they still consider him to be the "mostest hoss."     from Thoroughbred Champions
 
Kentucky Horse Park had a very grainy film of Will Harbut (as an old man after the horse died) talking about how he used to play hide and seek with the stallion, before the visitors for the day arrived.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flurry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 8:22am
Su what horses do we NOT duplicate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 7:50pm
If anything I don't think we understand fully how inbreeding works.
Why else when you inbreed to a stayer do you get a sprinter or an inbreeding to a speed horse you get a stayer.
No rhyme nor reason.
Now I don't say that Riva San is and out and out stayer but her dam has three crosses to Star Kingdom similar to Count Chivas and most of the Lord Ballina's.
Likewise Luskin Star was inbred to Hyperion but he was all speed.  But I've seen sprinters inbred to Princequillo or Ribot which says alot.  Just can't find the pedigrees.
I think the best inbreeding is 4th 5th or further back.  That's where you usually find the fun stuff.  The full brothers, 1/2 syblings ect.
When it's closer you can under cut the pedigree.  While back there you reinforce the pedigree with traits which you wish to immulate.  Likewise if there is some fault you have had four generations to overcome it.
Likewise if something doesn't work the first time it doesn't mean it will never work. 
Star Kingdom had three crosses back to his female line.  The first cross Virgin's Folly appears Canterbury Pilgrim 2m x 4m.  We got a winner of one race.  Hardly an exciting prospect for the cross.  The next time we got Star Kingdom 9 wins and Champion Sire.  No comparison.  Star Kingdom has the inbreeding Sunstar 4f x 4f and Canterbury Pilgrim 5m x 5m, 7f.
Nothing close, nothing spectacular afterall the earlier Canterbury Pilgrim cross hadn't worked.
Find any horse you really loved.  Find out about his or her syblings and progeny and work from there.  Just give yourself at least 3 generations before you look for that special cross.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal Suite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 8:02pm
Doesnt Mr Prospector (or sons-there-of)  throw gamy legs? 
There are none so blind than those who will not see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 8:19pm
Just to futher show how you could do it. 
Yesterday She Will be Loved was sold at the MM sale.  $2.4million latter you have a mare who was a G2 winner with a pedigree devoid of Danehill.  That is not a bad buy as crossing to Danehill will not produce any close problems.
Her third line is The Judge, Summoned, Luskin Star, Sweet Embrace, Sir Tristram, Lady Giselle, Roi Soleil and Polairia.
Which one do you chose to try and repeat?
The Judge was a minor stakes winner by Showdown.
Summoned was a broodmare with 5 group winners or 18 stakes races with the best being Zeditave.
Luskin Star was a champion two year old.
Sweet Embrace won the Golden Slipper.
Sir Tristram was a champion staying sire.
Lady Giselle was the dam of two G1 winners Zabeel and Baryshnikov.
Roi Soleil won a G3 and placed in a G1 Guineas.
Polairia also produced Avon Valley who stood at stud in New Zealand where he got three G1 winners.
That is where I would start with a pedigree.  The rest is up to the individual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 8:37pm
Bit of a cross over in storys here.  But earlier there was a line against inbreeding with the high percentage of breakdowns.
Your earlier post said you would not inbreed to Circles of Gold (you'd have to wait awhile anyway).  Circles of Gold has no inbreeding in her first 5 generations.
Inbreeding isn't always to blame for leg or conformation or temperament faults.  It just gets the blame 99% of the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 11:23pm
Mr P definitely. 
 
Danzig and I would expect that that will apply to Danehill and even to RC in time. 
 
pedigreeonline http://www.pedigreequery.com/ have a linebreeding function where you can get details of inbred horses in their database.  You will not get every horse in the world however you can certainly get an idea if there are any good ones.  You have to be a subscriber though.
 
Basically whatever we are doing now has already been done in the NH and even though there will always be exceptions (the ones you hear about) there will also be many that didn't make the grade so you need to weigh up the percentages before inbreeding willy nilly like many are doing.
 
While we are on the subject I read something very interesting on thehorse.com newsletter the other day.  Some quarterhorse breeders where expressing concerns of the narrowing genetic pool because breeders where trying to breed horses with certain traits and hence used the same pedigrees over and over.  Sound familiar?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sadlers wells Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2008 at 11:47pm
Absolut Glam s 5mx3m to Danzig
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2008 at 12:50am
Originally posted by sadlers wells sadlers wells wrote:

Absolut Glam s 5mx3m to Danzig
 
As I said there will always be exceptions and many are ususally fillies.
 
It's the number of times that it has been tried that is important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote On The Range Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2008 at 2:04am

Flurry, you pose an interesting question but, IMO, in many cases it is a matter of personal opinion. While there are many proven duplications, nicks and crosses, breeders and pedigree analysts have varied and different opinions on why the duplication and position of particular horse in any pedigree will or wont work and it can also depend on the type of horse you want to breed.

My advice, dont duplicate horses who were poor performers/producers and dont breed mares to stallions with similar confirmation or temperament faults, regardless of how appealing the inbreeding looks.

A long time ago I was given some sound advice by a wise old pedigree guru who had been linebreeding for years. He believed that if there is no real action (being good stakes performers or at minimum multiple metro winners) in the first 3 generations of both parents, then the pedigree has already failed and was unlikely to produce future success. Then to the reverse he said when you analyse the pedigrees of families that are consistent performers youll most likely always find duplications of superior and influential bloodlines further back. In theory, if a pedigree is performing well at all the top branches of the tree, then its roots are right.

Also, Ive seen the evidence of breeders using average to ordinary stallions and mares, duplicating obscure bloodlines purely to inbreed to their famous ancestors. As the horses they were duplicating close-up were total non-performers, unfortunately, the resulting progeny were the same.

There is no doubt that physical attributes and character traits can be inherited from both parents, but from what Ive learned, most faults can be bred out to a great degree by using well conformed, correct, good natured mares. It worked for me because my best mares produced my best types of foals who have turned out to be my best performers on the track. But I learned the hard way, doing things like breeding a small a mare to small stallion to get a beautifully linebred 14.2h pony who couldnt go further than 900m and using a stallion with bad legs over a mare with bad legs to get another beautifully linebred foal with woeful legs, proving that all the linebreeding in the world could not outbreed mother nature.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2008 at 3:55am
Furious, do you think sometimes class could be mistaken for speed or vise versa ?
 
Star Kingdom like Danehill are in my opinion pure CLASS rather then speed stallions.
 
Also the fact you are linebreeding or inbreeding to a certain name, you could be picking up on any of those horse ancestors or in fact none of them.
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2008 at 4:08am
Yes you are right about the class.  The fact that both could sire middle distance (or 3200m+ horses in Danehill's case) doesn't mean they were only speed.  But the vast majority of Star Kingdom's were milers or below and his was an age of slightly less speed orientated pedigrees.
Anyway speed is important in a stayer and visa versa.  We tend to be losing to much of that visa versa in our modern pedigrees.
Yes you are also right that you could pick up none of the blood you want.  I don't think anyone has worked out that equation yet.  The point is you are trying to come at a mare or stallion through different point (preferrably with some female content).  You may miss totally but that's why we try again.
Nothing should be discounted.  Environment, handling, pedigree even the year (drought or flood etc) all come into it.  Why do we get really outstanding crops and lesser ones.  Why are full brothers so different.  Each horse will get a different genetic makeup.  We just have to try for the best we can get.  There are so many variables that the old adage of luck certainly plays a big part also.  If and when that good one comes along I guess we can marvel with the rest of the racing public.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pihanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2008 at 8:16am
the late great jack glengarry was adamant that if you in bred to male lines and produced a colt / gelding it would be a plodder

plenty of examples to prove him right

northern dancer and sir t, in bred to males only, in males have produced endless plodders

against that, the likes of makybe diva have three male lines of nd and came out ok as it turns out

so it may be how you breed the dupes and what you get rather than banning any particular dupe

mr p hogan was adamant about one thing though, you dont want a dud stallion anywhere in a dam's pedigree top line
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pihanga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2008 at 8:20am
of course it took him quite few years to breed out all the marceau's & danzatore's

but the rythymns and the maroofs and the gold and ivory's sort of got away with it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2008 at 9:20pm
Flurry, why would you not duplicate Circles Of Gold ?
 
She was a top class race filly and mare and sound enough for a thoroughly testing racetrack career.
 
 
 
 
 
 
CIRCLES OF GOLD (AUS) Chestnut filly 1991  
Marscay
Chestnut 1979
Biscay
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Chestnut 1946
Stardust
Chestnut 1937
Hyperion
Sister Stella
1930
1923
6-e
16>
Impromptu
1939
Concerto
Thoughtless
1928
1934
7>
1-g
Magic Symbol
Chestnut 1956
Makarpura
Chestnut 1946
Big Game
Cap d'Or
1939
1937
6-e
22-c
Magic Wonder
Bay or brown 1949
Newtown Wonder
Conveyor
1942
1945
11-g
2-o
Heart of Market
Bay 1967
To Market
1948
Market Wise
Bay 1938
Brokers Tip
On Hand
1930
1931
12-c
22-c
Pretty Does
1944
Johnstown
Creese
1936
1933
17-b
10-a
Accroche Coeur
Bay 1959
Beau Max
1947
Bull Lea
Bee Mac
1935
1941
9-f
20>
Wiles
Bay 1955
Better Self
New Weapon
1945
1942
20>
4-m
Olympic Aim
Chestnut 1983
Zamazaan
1965
Exbury
Chestnut 1959
Le Haar
Chestnut 1954
Vieux Manoir
Mince Pie
1947
1949
10-e
20-a
Greensward
1953
Mossborough
Stargrass
1947
1942
6-e
2-f
Toyama
Bay 1955
Tulyar
Brown 1949
Tehran
Neocracy
1941
1944
14-b
22-a
Rose o' Lynn
Bay 1944
Pherozshah
Rocklyn
1934
1937
9-c
7>
Gold Vink
Chestnut 1966
Gold Sovereign
Brown 1957
Grey Sovereign
Grey 1948
Nasrullah
Kong
1940
1933
9-c
6-f
Swift Gold
Bay 1945
William of Valence
Gold Race
1932
1930
21-a
14-b
Goudvink
Brown 1954
Dogger Bank
1946
Fairway
Herringbone
1925
1940
13-e
8-c
Nola
Bay or brown 1948
Foxbridge
Cross-Question
1930
1939
14-b
22-b
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2008 at 9:21pm
Do you think it is possible that Coubertin could be even better than his two older brothers
Yes, ... I've studied the pedigree and it looks very positive.
64   35%
 
No I don't think he'll be better
54   29.5%
 
Better??? ... Wow, now I'd like to see that
45   24.6%
 
I have no idea
20   10.9%
 

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Last Vote  :  Saturday, 07 June 2008 00:23
 
I voted
 
Better??? ... Wow, now I'd like to see that
45   24.6%


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2008 at 12:07am
Pihanga.  You referr to the three male crosses of Northern Dancer in Makybe Diva.  But and a pretty big but is the fact that the third cross is a Northern Dancer daughter.  That m x f comes into it in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2008 at 4:44am
Originally posted by Nostradamus II Nostradamus II wrote:

Princequillo was a source of toughness and class.  Picked up Nasrullah well who was temperamental. The two balanced well. Never too much Princequillo IMHO
 
Agree Nostra.  Mix and match, though the fact they stood at the same stud means that there were many many horses bred on the cross and success was therefore almost inevitable.
 
Some say Secretariat is poison, but not true for mine.  Relative failure as a sire given his opportunity, but a huge positive influence as a broodmare sire imo.
 
Nureyev was evidently a pretty argumentative type and was thus condemned by some, but recent results show that his male line is doing very well and his daughters and grand-daughters are, generally speaking, simply marvelous.
 
Some say multiples of Bletchingly can lead to bleeders or bad-backed types, but I'll take a double of him any day of the week.
 
Danzatore has a bad reputation temperament and sire performance-wise, and one well earned in his case.  Would keep away from him, not only because of this but also because he has Native Dancer 3 x 3 and it's hard to find many sires without a fair degree of him also (eg Danehill and his sons).
 
A host of Marscay mares can be pretty ordinary in terms of alignment and type, so some advise not doubling up with him lest you compound a fault or two.  But I for one am happy to take the risk.
 
Sir T was a pretty anti-social type, with handlers often wearing protective gear.  But a wonderfully balanced pedigree with Princequillo, Selene, Lavendula, Gainsborough and Mumtaz Mahal amongst others top and bottom.  Can't divine any hereditary no-no's there.  So despite the nay-sayers I'd like him in any of my mares, even duplicated around 3 x 4.
 
However the generality suggests that successful sires or broodmare sires are only thus because they're positives in a pedigree.  Unsuccessful animals either don't appear very often in pedigrees or have their (bad) influence more than balanced by the positive elements.
 
Bottom line generality for bargain-basement breeders/racers in particular.  If there aren't superior performed, or alternatively superior bred, animals in the first 2 or 3 removes removes, this is most likely the type of horse to avoid.  
 
Have just quickly cobbled the above, and have only scratched the surface at best.  So over to others.
 
 
 
  
  
It's hard to soar with eagles...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2008 at 1:46am
STRAVINSKY'S IMAGE (GB) Bay filly 2004  
Stravinsky
Bay 1996
Nureyev
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Brown 1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935
1944
4-r
14-c
Natalma
Bay 1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950
1947
5-f
2-d
Special
Bay 1969
Forli
Chestnut 1963
Aristophanes
Trevisa
1948
1951
9-c
3-b
Thong
Bay 1964
Nantallah
Rough Shod
1953
1944
6-a
5-h
Fire the Groom
Bay or brown 1987
Blushing Groom
Chestnut 1974
Red God
Chestnut 1954
Nasrullah
Spring Run
1940
1948
9-c
8-c
Runaway Bride
Bay 1962
Wild Risk
Aimee
1940
1957
3-f
22-d
Prospector's Fire
Brown 1976
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Native Street
Grey 1963
Native Dancer
Beaver Street
1950
1953
5-f
3-d
Off Stage
Bay 2000
Theatrical
Bay or brown 1982
Nureyev
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Special
Bay 1969
Forli
Thong
1963
1964
3-b
5-h
Tree of Knowledge
Bay 1977
Sassafras
Bay 1967
Sheshoon
Ruta
1956
1960
14-a
8-c
Sensibility
Bay 1971
Hail to Reason
Pange
1958
1955
4-n
3-h
Worood
Bay 1985
Vaguely Noble
Bay 1965
Vienna
Chestnut 1957
Aureole
Turkish Blood
1950
1944
2-f
14-c
Noble Lassie
Bay 1956
Nearco
Belle Sauvage
1935
1949
4-r
1-d
Farouche
Bay 1971
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Mrs Peterkin
Bay 1965
Tom Fool
Legendra
1949
1944
3-j
4-r
  Ancestor duplications: Nearco 5m x 5f   Northern Dancer 3m x 4m,4f   Native Dancer 5f,5f x  
    Nureyev 2m x 3m              


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Cityboy View Drop Down
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cityboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2008 at 6:01am
Originally posted by Flurry Flurry wrote:

I would love to be able to source somewhere what duplications not to do. It is great to do matings on pedigree and type - but I dont have enough knowledge of ancestors to know if i am duplicating and therefore enhancing , faults. I know many of the current horses ie I would never duplicate the Rubiton and Euclase due to their bad feet 
 
I've done a bit of breeding with a Rubiton mare and I'm aware that they are generally slow to mature. However I've never experienced or heard about "their bad feet" .
 
Does anyone else want to add substance to this supposed trait?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mopak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2008 at 10:31am
I remember reading somewhere of Princequillo having a massive heart. It was also said he tended to pass this trait down the line to his daughter's foals. Secretariat was out of PQ mare so perhaps got his massive heart from her and then passed the genetic tendency through his daughters rather than sons.
 
 
 
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TierceSurprise View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TierceSurprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2008 at 11:07am
Give me a Whiskey Road or Secretariat dam lined mare anyday! Thumbs%20Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeditave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2008 at 12:52am
Flurry -
 
I remember reading some years ago when Ken McLean (our Aussie breeding/pedigree guru) advised us not to double up on Northern Dancer in a mating as he was concerned about producing bleeders. So even Ken was not completely aware of what we should definitely not do as dozens of champions since then have two or more crossings of ND.
 
History has proven (by statistics) that if you inbreed to the same stallion (i.e. same sire of the stallion AND mare to be used) then it is likely that you will breed a plodder.
 
Breed as well as the knowledge that you have learnt and what you can afford! You may well breed another Takeover Target whilst we flounder with our "rules"!! Statistics are a wonderful guide in breeding records...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2008 at 3:06am
Heard on the grapevine that duplicating Northern Dancer is extremely dangerous. Also heard doubling up on Gold Ace can have catastrophic consequences...just a heads up breeders
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