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Transgender Athletes

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Redemption View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redemption Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 7:30pm
I dont understand why the obvious isnt done??

Female Division
Male Division
Transgender male to female division
Transgender female to male division

4 different comps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 7:34pm
That's a lot of toilets 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Redemption Redemption wrote:

I dont understand why the obvious isnt done??

Female Division
Male Division
Transgender male to female division
Transgender female to male division

4 different comps.


And a fifth-the  full on dopers' division- balls to the wall- amped to the max- that's the one I'd watch.Tongue Get your freak on!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by Redemption Redemption wrote:

I dont understand why the obvious isnt done??

Female Division
Male Division
Transgender male to female division
Transgender female to male division

4 different comps.
Times 2 - don't forget the disabled athletes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:00pm
I know I'm heading for a bit of stick saying this. However, I have found there is miles too much coverage of disabled events at the Commonwealth games. Every second event seemed to be a S17 or a S something else disabled event. I'm not knocking the athletes - good on them. Just have no real interest in watching athletes with different levels of disability competing. I think they should be a separate Games either before or after. It will still be given some coverage & if you want to support it you can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:04pm
I dont take the Commonwealth Games seriously and didn't watch much of it. They are like barrier trials for real events like Olympics and Worlf Championships so it doesn't bother me whether they mix them up or not. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

I dont take the Commonwealth Games seriously and didn't watch much of it. They are like barrier trials for real events like Olympics and Worlf Championships so it doesn't bother me whether they mix them up or not. 
Yes I think the trend in most countries is to separate them. I mean reality is there's only a few countries that really gets behind their disables athletes like we do. One of the real issues is all the variations within the disability....resulting in all the categories & in turn making it difficult to compare performances ( often in the same race)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:45pm
I'm inclined to think a little different, having watched a few interviews with the disabled athletes they seem over the moon that they have been included with the abled , I'll just leave it at that fwiw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

I know I'm heading for a bit of stick saying this. However, I have found there is miles too much coverage of disabled events at the Commonwealth games. Every second event seemed to be a S17 or a S something else disabled event. I'm not knocking the athletes - good on them. Just have no real interest in watching athletes with different levels of disability competing. I think they should be a separate Games either before or after. It will still be given some coverage & if you want to support it you can.


Arthur Tunstell lost everything when people totally misquoted him.

I tend to agree.

reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

I'm inclined to think a little different, having watched a few interviews with the disabled athletes they seem over the moon that they have been included with the abled , I'll just leave it at that fwiw.


This is also true.

You can not deny them on that front.

reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

I know I'm heading for a bit of stick saying this. However, I have found there is miles too much coverage of disabled events at the Commonwealth games. Every second event seemed to be a S17 or a S something else disabled event. I'm not knocking the athletes - good on them. Just have no real interest in watching athletes with different levels of disability competing. I think they should be a separate Games either before or after. It will still be given some coverage & if you want to support it you can.


Arthur Tunstell lost everything when people totally misquoted him.

I tend to agree.


Arthur was a bit of a rough diamond , maybe copped a few around the head at times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

It was a leaked report- now safely buried in a bomb shelter under 10 metres of PC reinforced  concrete.Tongue

I'm happy for semenya to compete against women, at the very liberal testosterone level limit that was in effect from 2010- 2015.

"Specifically, we know that Semenya was identified as having elevated testosterone levels after her gold medal in Berlin (1:55.45, as an 18-year old).  We know that some intervention was applied, and we can, through pretty basic deduction, figure out that it involved lowering her testosterone levels.  How?  Well, at the time Semenya emerged, from nowhere, the IAAF and IOC policies on gender verification (they should call it ‘sex verification’, by the way, because sex is biological, gender is social, but anyway) were vague and unrelated to testosterone.

It was as a result of Semenya, and the absolutely disastrous handling of that situation, that the policy changed, and until last year, the policy in place said that women could compete only if their testosterone levels were below an upper limit.  That upper limit, 10 nmol/L, was set up based on a study done on all the women competing in the World Championships in 2011 and 2013.  The researchers took the average testosterone levels of women with a condition called Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, which was already elevated at 4.5 nmol/L, and then added 5 SD to it.

The addition of 3 SD (which created a level of 7.5 nmol/L) would have meant that 16 in 1000 athletes would exceed the cutoff.  That’s why the extra 2 SD were added, to make sure that the upper limit would apply only to those with hyperandrogenism (or those who are doping).

99% of female athletes, by the way, had testosterone levels below 3.08 nmol/L. So the upper limit of 10 nmol/L was three fold higher than a level that applies to 99 in 100 women participants.

Semenya’s performances, under this policy of reducing testosterone, dropped off in a predictable manner.  Having run the 1:55.45 at 18, she never got close again, though did win Olympic silver in London (behind a doper), and a World silver in 2011.  Last year, she failed to advance beyond the semi-finals in Beijing, and hadn’t even made the qualification mark for the preceding year’s Commonwealth Games.  2:00 had become a significant barrier, when the world record had been plausible at 18.

Now, she is untouchable.  People will (and have said) that it’s down to her focused training, recovery from injury and so forth, but I’m not buying that.  The change has happened for an obvious reason – the restoration of testosterone levels, and that is thanks to the courts – CAS, the Court of Arbitration for sport, last year ruled that the IAAF could no longer enforce the upper limit of testosterone, and in so doing, cleared the way for Semenya, and at least a handful of others, to return to the advantages that this hormone clears provides an individual.  That CAS ruled this way because they felt that there was insufficient evidence for the performance benefits is one of the stupidest, most bemusing legal/scientific decisions ever made."


https://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/



This is the most scientifically accurate analysis of the whole Semenya saga you will find.


http://sportsscientists.com/thread/caster-semenya/?doing_wp_cron=1523521166.0635280609130859375000




That second article rather gives the game away with the completely ridiculous question: "At what point does the advantage become small enough that it starts to resemble other advantages?"

Other advantages? Like the fact that Michael Phelps has an absurdly high wing span to height ratio, hands like cheeseboards and feet like flippers? Not to mention the access to resources.

Now there's a philosophical (as opposed to physiological) question for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 8:58pm
Most odd comparison Judge. Fact is we have Male & Female competitions. So you need to fit into one or the other. Caster is well & truly in the middle I think. As yet we don't categorise via wing span or feet size.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 9:03pm
I was referencing the article. Did you read it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 9:04pm
As I've said before I feel for Semanya. She is obviously trying hard to be accepted. Thing is she is only one - & when she is on song ( fit & testosterone has kicked in) almost untouchable. Must be so disheartening for the others
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThreeBears Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 10:20pm
On the subject of transgender participants -
 
 
The Governess is a classic LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 2:42am
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

I'm inclined to think a little different, having watched a few interviews with the disabled athletes they seem over the moon that they have been included with the abled , I'll just leave it at that fwiw.

Clap ... they are high light of the Empire Games for me, especially when called winning a medal ... and I have far more respect for them than I do for the Australian Test Cricket Team.
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 2:55am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

As I've said before I feel for Semanya. She is obviously trying hard to be accepted. Thing is she is only one - & when she is on song ( fit & testosterone has kicked in) almost untouchable. Must be so disheartening for the others

She was "adopted" as a cause by some self interested administrators of Athletics in SA, when they realised her "potential" to raise the profile of the sport to the benefit of the vested interests around her. She has been a protected species and a meal ticket to those who closed around her ever since.

Don't feel sorry for "her", "she" has done very well thank you, has been able to make plenty of money and attend university, and even got "herself" a pretty wife ... if she didn't play along, she would still be living in poverty in the back blocks of the worst parts of SA ... as a man or a woman? ... who knows? ... I think we all suspect that we know that answer though.
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 10:43am
I agree with Dr E re Casta.     Doesnt matter if she wears lippy , she still just looks like a man to me.   And she/he has done very well for him/her self.  Casta will never have to live in a round straw hut in the dust and dirt and heat , like many other of his/her country people do.
As to the para-olympians.   I would rather watch Kurt Fearnly race, or some of their track events, than the able bodied beach volley ball or lawn bowls.  OMG its about as exciting as watching grass grow !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 3:31pm
We need some trannies for our British Empire Games Women's Hockey, Netball and Rugby Sevens teams ... what an abject failure those pretenders have been!Dead
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Who makes up the rules? The mad hatter? Hubbard and others are deemed to be women just because they take testosterone suppressants to bring the level down to female levels. Nothing else matters apparently, just testosterone.

Are you following so far? Good, then get this. Semenya has lots more testosterone than women. Why? Cos she's got balls. Consequently she thrashes the testosterone deprived women.

Why do I say consequently? Because it is a proven fact that when Semenya takes the testosterone suppressants Hubbard is forced to take, her performance drops off a cliff- she does not win.


But finally they are changing the rules back so Semenya will have to reduce the level again. And guess what the right-on luvvies at The Guardian call that decision. Sexist. Making one fellow with balls, who beats all the women in the world, reduce her testosterone level to their level is sexist.Wacko

Days before the hearing, the South African minister for sport and recreation, Tokozile Xasa, released a statement critical of the proposed regulations.

"What's at stake here is far more than the right to participate in a sport," Xasa said.

"Women's bodies, their wellbeing, their ability to earn a livelihood, their very identity, their privacy and sense of safety and belonging in this world, are being questioned.

"This is a gross violation of internationally accepted standards of human rights law."



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rusty nails Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 4:48pm
Most South Africans I talk to,thinks Seminya is a victim.

I don’t get it.

They get quite narky when I suggest Werner Kok would dominate in women’s Rugby 7’s.
But I honestly can’t distinguish a difference in the two scenarios.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 5:06pm
It is crazy, I am all  feeling that they are any sex, or even adopt a feminine persona for satisfaction reasons, life is to short, but the fact remains the brain's orientation does not alter the natural advantages they were born with .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 9:04pm
Looking at that above picture, if thats not a man, this world is crazy !  Why should real women be forced to compete against that ?? She/he obviously must have more male stuff coursing  thru the body than a normal woman.  It even makes a point to dress like a man just to rub the girl,s noses in it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by acacia alba acacia alba wrote:

Looking at that above picture, if thats not a man, this world is crazy !  Why should real women be forced to compete against that ?? She/he obviously must have more male stuff coursing  thru the body than a normal woman.  It even makes a point to dress like a man just to rub the girl,s noses in it. 

        Put them in charge of Border Security .. They would have Labor & Greens support.
    AND of course the SHIM who is the only Politician I can recall who has married both a Man & a Woman.
   That mixed up and is running our Country...   WOW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by acacia alba acacia alba wrote:

Looking at that above picture, if thats not a man, this world is crazy !  Why should real women be forced to compete against that ?? She/he obviously must have more male stuff coursing  thru the body than a normal woman.  It even makes a point to dress like a man just to rub the girl,s noses in it. 
If the Saffers weren't such a basket case, they could've bred themselves a handful of soccer players by now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 3:37pm
The lefty luvvies say it's anti-woman trying to make Semenya compete on level terms. That's a weird way of looking at things. WackoThey are looking at the wrong end of the telescope- it's anti-woman making all the normals compete against Semeya on ridiculously uneven terms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

The lefty luvvies say it's anti-woman trying to make Semenya compete on level terms. That's a weird way of looking at things. WackoThey are looking at the wrong end of the telescope- it's anti-woman making all the normals compete against Semeya on ridiculously uneven terms.


Thanks.  Thumbs Up  Thats what I wanted to say but didnt say it very well.  Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2019 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

The lefty luvvies say it's anti-woman trying to make Semenya compete on level terms. That's a weird way of looking at things. WackoThey are looking at the wrong end of the telescope- it's anti-woman making all the normals compete against Semeya on ridiculously uneven terms.

you are better than that Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 8:36pm
Better than ??  What ???  Confused


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