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Zeljko Ranogajec

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Luva Punt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luva Punt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Zeljko Ranogajec
    Posted: 19 May 2018 at 8:29am
Has anyone done any sort of investigation into who actually owns TABCORP?

Who are the major shareholders / stakeholders?  What subsidiary companies it owns, and what companies have affiliation with TABCORP.

Given that Zjelko has set up Colossus Bets, it is not outside the realms of possibility that Zjelko is associated with TABCORP in some shape or form, and has a nice little set up so that he receives the REBATES, guarantee him a situation  where he can win and not lose, and he is also conveniently located offshore, to avoid the taxes via the Isle Of Man.

TABCORP can maintain it's shroud of secrecy as much as it likes, but surely it must be freely available information what companies TABCORP own, and who is in the ownership?

It would be interesting to know, because they have no interest whatsoever in changing the current arrangements, and are happy for Zjelko and Co to be a major beneficiary in their profit sharing model.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luva Punt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2018 at 7:30am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Sorry but I have to ask the stupid question- why do tote companies pay rebates? If Ranogajec takes all his money out of a tote what is the net effect, for the tote company?



You only need to read the quotes on the attached article to see the net effect:


Responses from a TABCORP spokesman:

"It’s common knowledge that rebates are offered by totes around the world to high-volume customers," a Tabcorp spokesperson said.

Citing "commercial" considerations, the gaming company wouldn’t confirm the amount it rebates to Zeljko, who is widely believed to be its biggest client. Nor would Tabcorp disclose how much had to be wagered per annum to get a rebate.

Industry insiders estimate Tabcorp is giving Zeljko a kickback of between 8 and 10 per cent. So even if Zeljko’s syndicate makes a 2 per cent loss on betting, it is well ahead of the average punter when rebates are taken into account.

Comments from Zjelko himself when asked, "How much does the syndicate turn over per year?" 

"My guess would be $1 billion," was the answer.

But, as he explained to the court, it wasn’t winning that kept them way ahead of the average punter – it was the rebates or "loyalty payments".

"It’s very simple," Zeljko told the court. "If you bet $100 and lost $5, but you get a 10 per cent rebate, you still make 5 per cent."

"You always win," he said. "I’m telling you that, if you bet very large, it’s a pari-mutuel pool, you depreciate it so far that you end up getting under fair odds. If you fix something at $8, you get six, but if you get a rebate that puts you into the positive."

Given that the Fixed Odds Market always moves in line with the totalisator pools, and there is always very little difference between the two with final dividends.

There is no doubt run of the mill PUNTERS are now continually getting UNDER the true value of a horses odds, and there is also the potential for the same syndicates, with there large volume of wagering, to lay off their bets on BETFAIR, and further increase their PROFITS, by continually manipulating changes in the market.

The syndicates get over the odds, and rebates, and all other PUNTERS in the marketplace, get UNDERS and have to absorb the TAX RATES.

If that is not MARKET MANIPULATION, what is ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 11:38pm
Rebate /riːbeɪt/ n. A classic display of egregious executive incompetence and dereliction of responsibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 6:00pm
Lol HH. A classic display of egregious executive incompetence and dereliction of responsibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 5:56pm
Bigger the pools the bigger their share. Ditto for governments and racing bodies who share takeout.

Eg FF 22.5%
22.5% of $100K  =  22.5K
22.5% of $1M     = 225K

Reportedly the FF for the Everest was $2.8M. I'd guess a good bit of that was John Wilson et al.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarmersHaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Sorry but I have to ask the stupid question- why do tote companies pay rebates? If Ranogajec takes all his money out of a tote what is the net effect, for the tote company?


 
You're probably best served to address that question to TasTote, circa start of this decade...
Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 4:51pm
Sorry but I have to ask the stupid question- why do tote companies pay rebates? If Ranogajec takes all his money out of a tote what is the net effect, for the tote company?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 2:22pm
If you told me Tabcorp's primary motivation was to keep the tote pools as soft as possible as to allow Zeljko to maintain the highest POT it would be hard to disagree looking at what's happening.

And why do they allow Zeljko to arb jackpot pools? What's going on here, it stinks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Atreus Atreus wrote:

Currently on the tote the only profitable players would be the big syndicates getting rebates and players betting with inside info

Everyone else would be unprofitable.  So right now the percentage of medium players on the tote that are profitable would be 0% or close to it

However if you gave rebates to medium players they might be able to show a profit.  This profit would come at the expense of those currently getting the rebates such as Zeljko

Rebates enable rebate players to corner the market on almost all the value bets on the tote
What's going on makes no sense drawing conclusions from all logical assumptions.
The following are the two most logical conclusions:
-If smarter players were enticed into the market Zeljko's teams edge would shrink and he would be forced to increased turnover exponentially to maintain the same win rate.
-Zeljko's team would recognize an improvement in the efficiency of the pools but greater pools bring greater betting opportunities and he increases turnover.

In either scenario the tote pools increase as does Zeljko's teams turnover. Why wouldn't Tabcorp want this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 10:59am
POC tax was levied to overcome corps using a tax haven - in this case the NT. The principle (if not the implementation) is sound, and smart countries are slowly recognising that's it's one of very few ways to force mega-multinational companies  to partially pay their way. 

Rebates are a separate issue. Rano operates on margins and it could be argued that he and TAB are together guilty of market manipulation, but "free marketeers" (lol) would claim it's nothing more than clever business. Ranogajec has picked a good time to be involved. Eventually the golden goose will stop laying. 

Can't recall if the TAB merger enquiry looked at the effect of rebates - it supposedly considered the effect on small punters (lol). If it did it underestimated its effects. The Vic TAB agreement comes up for "renewal" in 2024. Hopefully a new player might upset their apple cart, although more likely RV will simply suck more money out of Tabcorp/punters and the status quo will continue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 10:43am
$100k on the daily double would have been from a time where the tote was the only betting option for those not on course and there were a limited number of betting options available.

These days there is little interest in daily doubles as most take multis on races of their choosing. Quaddie is far more popular now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 10:07am
If rebates were withdrawn, the playing field would be level for ALL punters and many punters who they have been lost to the tote since the inception of rebates would definitely migrate back to the tote. For starters, exotic betting would increase back to what it was in the past. I recall when the daily Double held $100,000 +, today it is moderate.  Tabcorp's need for a level playing field will be restored and there would be no need for a Point of Consumption Tax. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 9:34am
Any tax imposed on any industry is ultimately paid by the consumer. This is no different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 9:19am
Correct, those punters who have been forced out of betting on the tote due to rebaters cruelling any opportunity to win may have graduated to the corporates. However a new  Point of Consumption Tax is soon to be levied by state governments on those corporates.  Who do you suppose will pay that tax ? Punters of course, the corporates will pass the tax on by the way of reduced odds on any winner they might back.

Who do you suppose pressured governments to impose this new tax?  Tabcorp have for years insisted corporate bookies should play on a level playing field. If Tabcorp wants corporates to play on a level playing field they should do away with rebates to Zeljko and his ilk and, then, some of those punters they have lost might migrate back to betting on the tote.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 9:13pm
Currently on the tote the only profitable players would be the big syndicates getting rebates and players betting with inside info

Everyone else would be unprofitable.  So right now the percentage of medium players on the tote that are profitable would be 0% or close to it

However if you gave rebates to medium players they might be able to show a profit.  This profit would come at the expense of those currently getting the rebates such as Zeljko

Rebates enable rebate players to corner the market on almost all the value bets on the tote
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sunline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 7:42pm
What % of medium players do you think are profitable and would therefore eat into Zeljko's profits, Atreus?
Sunline...simply supreme
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 7:39pm
If Tabcorp paid rebates to medium players then that would cut into Zeljko's profits and no way Tabcorp will allow that to happen

Note too that the new POC tax has been crafted so that Zeljko does not pay it betting from offshore via Tabcorp's Isle of Man hub
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 6:47pm
Tabcorps refusal to entice more customers into their tote pools through rebate incentives is unbelievable. We see through the Hong Kong example that expanding rebates to medium players increases turnover significantly. It's very difficult to believe increasing tote turnover is a priority given their behavior.
I think offering 10% rebates on a reasonable figure (say $400 metro racing/$200 all other events) would do wonders to revitalize the toes. Money would flood into the exotic pools.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Muss Muss wrote:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/meet-the-joker-the-australian-who-is-the-biggest-gambler-in-the-world-20180515-p4zfhi.html



Shows what little chance the average punter has.   Been happening for generations.   I remember the on course hi rollers rooms, only too well.
   Discount on turnover.
Will only get worse as Governments eye the prizemoney and wealth in the Industry.    
I can see a tobacco type tax , ravaging the gambling dollar .   It has started already in some States.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 5:16pm
Keyboard Warrior
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MannyG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 8:38pm
Betdaq has been around for a while. Bugger all liquidity though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quezacotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 8:29pm
Surely at some point there will be competing betting exchanges everywhere .. If they allow licences to one..(Betfair)..then surely they have to allow competitors a licence, to eliminate any monopoly of the punting turnover in that area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by HarmersHaven HarmersHaven wrote:

Originally posted by lotto7 lotto7 wrote:

Surely the rebates would not apply to Black Caviar. Back her at $1.04 and receive $1.14? Load up forever if that was the case.


Long-time reader, first-time poster.

Betting on the Asian Exchanges allows you to do just this.

Your $5 win ticket can cost anywhere between $3.80 and $4.50 (10% to 24% discount in real terms) so backing BC becomes an option when you're in effect getting  $1.15/$1.20ish win and place. In actuality, tickets are available all the way up to face value ($5), but the majority of trading is done between the margins quoted earlier.

God Bless them.
Asian exchanges ? who are they ? I have never heard of this before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarmersHaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by lotto7 lotto7 wrote:

Surely the rebates would not apply to Black Caviar. Back her at $1.04 and receive $1.14? Load up forever if that was the case.


Long-time reader, first-time poster.

Betting on the Asian Exchanges allows you to do just this.

Your $5 win ticket can cost anywhere between $3.80 and $4.50 (10% to 24% discount in real terms) so backing BC becomes an option when you're in effect getting  $1.15/$1.20ish win and place. In actuality, tickets are available all the way up to face value ($5), but the majority of trading is done between the margins quoted earlier.

God Bless them.
Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J.M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 12:40pm
If he is business is professional punting than all income would be assessable winnings and rebates
of course he would be able to claim deductions for his losses and other costs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Ear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 12:02pm
Even better on the place
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lotto7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 8:16am
Surely the rebates would not apply to Black Caviar. Back her at $1.04 and receive $1.14? Load up forever if that was the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quezacotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 6:05pm
Correct me if Im wrong on this, but some of these rebates could be actually being paid out to tote owned bookmakers..example ..TAB pays out big kickbacks to Luxbet, Luxbet owned by Tabcorp..just giving themselves kickbacks aren't they..?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luva Punt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Baghdad Bob Baghdad Bob wrote:

LuvaPunt wrote...
"This is a rebate on all losing bets, which in effect is a cash rebate that no other punters in the marketplace receive."
 
Not quite correct, the rebates are given on turnover, that is, on both losing and winning bets.



Ok BB,

So the rebates are paid on turnover.  The rebate is not a part of the wager. 
It is an additional payment for placing a bet.

Is this not a form of income paid as a commission?

What is it if it is not income?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 5:00pm
LuvaPunt wrote...
"This is a rebate on all losing bets, which in effect is a cash rebate that no other punters in the marketplace receive."
 
Not quite correct, the rebates are given on turnover, that is, on both losing and winning bets.

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